Is this the true definition of PROGRESS?

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

Maybe but we have to be realistic that:

a) We are far more likely to spend the next 5 or 6 years outside the Premier League than inside of it.

b) When we leave the division, we are more likely to do so downwards rather than upwards.

That is not to be negative but we are in a division full of clubs that generate far more money than we do, that find it easier to attract players than we do due to their history and location and competing against clubs with ex-Premier League players and parachute payments. We are also competing against clubs that can attract a higher pedigree of manager than we can. Changing manager is not going to guarantee promotion. We can do our best to compete but if we make reaching the Premier league the only criteria we can judge a manager on, the likelihood is we'll not rate any manager we are likely to appoint. 

Well its a good job Huddersfield Cardiff Swansea Bournemouth and many many other clubs of similar size or smaller to ours didn’t have your outlook ay? Why is it that time and time again we see clubs on our level reach the top flight yet we cannot? I understand we are competing with clubs who financially can out do us but there was a time when many were just like us, Stoke are another good example. 

For me now especially with the stadium in place the historical excuses that always seem to be peddled out by people connected to BCFC are starting to run a bit thin. I also think plenty of managers with previous experience and know how of how to get out of this division would happily come to BCFC, Neil Warnock for example has hinted as much. Mick McCarthy would be another who im sure we could attract and has been there and done it at this level. Maybe you have to question weather the Lansdowns REALLY want it enough, because if they did and i mean really did then its more than doable. Plenty of clubs are testimony to that.. add Brighton to that list too another club that have massively over taken us !! Winds me up!

[View from the Dolman]

1 minute ago, bris red said:

Well its a good job Huddersfield Cardiff Swansea Bournemouth and many many other clubs of similar size or smaller to ours didn’t have your outlook ay? Why is it that time and time again we see clubs on our level reach the top flight yet we cannot? I understand we are competing with clubs who financially can out do us but there was a time when many were just like us, Stoke are another good example. 

For me now especially with the stadium in place the historical excuses that always seem to be peddled out by people connected to BCFC are starting to run a bit thin. I also think plenty of managers with previous experience and know how of how to get out of this division would happily come to BCFC, Neil Warnock for example has hinted as much. Mick McCarthy would be another who im sure we could attract and has been there and done it at this level. Maybe you have to question weather the Lansdowns REALLY want it enough, because if they did and i mean really did then its more than doable. Plenty of clubs are testimony to that.. add Brighton to that list too another club that have massively over taken us !! Winds me up!

Makes you wonder why Leeds/Sheffield Wednesday/Norwich haven't appointed one of these managers who carries guaranteed promotion through the door on day one. Makes you think if they really want it.

[Bris Red]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

Makes you wonder why Leeds/Sheffield Wednesday/Norwich haven't appointed one of these managers who carries guaranteed promotion through the door on day one. Makes you think if they really want it.

But one thing is for certain, none of those clubs would have touched Lee Johnson would they .. id of bet my house on that. Tells you all you need to know for me.

[pillred]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

Maybe but we have to be realistic that:

a) We are far more likely to spend the next 5 or 6 years outside the Premier League than inside of it.

b) When we leave the division, we are more likely to do so downwards rather than upwards.

That is not to be negative but we are in a division full of clubs that generate far more money than we do, that find it easier to attract players than we do due to their history and location and competing against clubs with ex-Premier League players and parachute payments. We are also competing against clubs that can attract a higher pedigree of manager than we can. Changing manager is not going to guarantee promotion. We can do our best to compete but if we make reaching the Premier league the only criteria we can judge a manager on, the likelihood is we'll not rate any manager we are likely to appoint. 

which makes our throwing away the chance we genuinely had to make it this season even harder to take.

[Bris Red]

2 minutes ago, pillred said:

which makes our throwing away the chance we genuinely had to make it this season even harder to take.

Precisely.. but don’t you know we are building something under Lee and co and that chance will come around again soon enough? Ha ha ha what a joke 

[red panda]

11 minutes ago, bris red said:

Well its a good job Huddersfield Cardiff Swansea Bournemouth and many many other clubs of similar size or smaller to ours didn’t have your outlook ay? Why is it that time and time again we see clubs on our level reach the top flight yet we cannot? I understand we are competing with clubs who financially can out do us but there was a time when many were just like us, Stoke are another good example. 

For me now especially with the stadium in place the historical excuses that always seem to be peddled out by people connected to BCFC are starting to run a bit thin. I also think plenty of managers with previous experience and know how of how to get out of this division would happily come to BCFC, Neil Warnock for example has hinted as much. Mick McCarthy would be another who im sure we could attract and has been there and done it at this level. Maybe you have to question weather the Lansdowns REALLY want it enough, because if they did and i mean really did then its more than doable. Plenty of clubs are testimony to that.. add Brighton to that list too another club that have massively over taken us !! Winds me up!

For every Huddersfield, Cardiff, Swansea and Bournemouth, there's also a Portsmouth, Coventry, Blackburn Sunderland, even Man City in the third tier not that long ago

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

3 minutes ago, pillred said:

which makes our throwing away the chance we genuinely had to make it this season even harder to take.

We're Bristol City....it's our role to get on our knees and splay they buttocks.

[ZiderEyed]

Is it not blindingly obvious to everyone that since Christmas we are in a regression. We made blistering progress but since new years day we have not been making that same progress. 

[YorkshireSection]

3 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

No. Its not as binary as that. 

Unless you're in the camp that says "we started well last season so we'll probably star well next season". 

I'm more inclined to think our performances will be closer to more recent performances which will land us in trouble. 

Unless LJ can provide a decent explanation as to why that's not likely to be the case.....

Your last paragraph is the BIG question that needs an answer.

If he has no idea to who, what & where it all went wrong, then there is nothing to suggest that we won't be able to correct/stop, another horrendous, long, winless, streak.

I seriously hope, the powers that be, are successful in their autopsy of the second half of our dead season. The number one priority, SHOULD be, working out, why, Lee Johnson's teams, have these unbelievable, losses of form (Barnsley, had the same, awful, run of form; under LJ).  Maybe then, LJ can work on, an effective, plan B & C.

My main concern is, that; there won't be that urgency from above to find out why? How? How indeed could we fall from 2nd in December, to a play off place (we'd all take that), to 10th. If, we can work out the catalyst to these runs, then I think LJ will be a very, popular manager, and an asset to Bristol City. I'am concerned though, that's he has an awful lot to learn, possibly too much to take us up, but enough to maybe, quantify steady progress. 

 

 

 

[ChippenhamRed]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

This is, of course, true, and undeniable season-on-season progress. The problem comes if you increase the resolution and split our seasons into halves, the progress becomes a lot less certain and a lot more Himalayan.

My issue is this. For me the true measure of progress is a consistent improvement in performance and results above a previous level. Yet this team’s form has been consistently below the previous level for an extended period of time now. If the team has truly progressed, should it even be possible for the performance level to dip for so long? In other words, if the team is now performing at a level no higher than it finished the previous season, have we really progressed at all?

Of course league position counts for something. But I’m currently no more optimistic about next season than I was about this season, this time last year. And if I feel like that, I’m not convinced we’re actually much further forward.

[LondonBristolian]

43 minutes ago, pillred said:

which makes our throwing away the chance we genuinely had to make it this season even harder to take.

Indeed. These chances do not come around often. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

Well its a good job Huddersfield Cardiff Swansea Bournemouth and many many other clubs of similar size or smaller to ours didn’t have your outlook ay? Why is it that time and time again we see clubs on our level reach the top flight yet we cannot? I understand we are competing with clubs who financially can out do us but there was a time when many were just like us, Stoke are another good example. 

For me now especially with the stadium in place the historical excuses that always seem to be peddled out by people connected to BCFC are starting to run a bit thin. I also think plenty of managers with previous experience and know how of how to get out of this division would happily come to BCFC, Neil Warnock for example has hinted as much. Mick McCarthy would be another who im sure we could attract and has been there and done it at this level. Maybe you have to question weather the Lansdowns REALLY want it enough, because if they did and i mean really did then its more than doable. Plenty of clubs are testimony to that.. add Brighton to that list too another club that have massively over taken us !! Winds me up!

We could attract Mick McCarthy. Very good manager but he didn't get Ipswich up and no guarantee he would for us either. 

Aside from that, I think you miss my point entirely. Of course we should aspire to reach the top flight and perhaps we will do so. But 23 other clubs in the division are competing for promotion. Each season, 1 in 8 teams will succeed, 7 in 8 will fail and 1 of those 7 in 8 will not only fail but drop down to the division below.

Of course we should go for promotion BUT we have to be realistic about how tough it is. Not because that's a reason why we should want to do it or aim to do it but because we need to be prepared and ready to take the opportunity when it comes. This season it came to early and we were not ready. It might not come round again. I'd say Swansea in particular succeeded because they did understand how tough it was going to be and built a club that was ready to take the step.  

[Merrick's Marvels]

16 minutes ago, YorkshireSection said:

Your last paragraph is the BIG question that needs an answer.

If he has no idea to who, what & where it all went wrong, then there is nothing to suggest that we won't be able to correct/stop, another horrendous, long, winless, streak.

I seriously hope, the powers that be, are successful in their autopsy of the second half of our dead season. The number one priority, SHOULD be, working out, why, Lee Johnson's teams, have these unbelievable, losses of form (Barnsley, had the same, awful, run of form; under LJ).  Maybe then, LJ can work on, an effective, plan B & C.

My main concern is, that; there won't be that urgency from above to find out why? How? How indeed could we fall from 2nd in December, to a play off place (we'd all take that), to 10th. If, we can work out the catalyst to these runs, then I think LJ will be a very, popular manager, and an asset to Bristol City. I'am concerned though, that's he has an awful lot to learn, possibly too much to take us up, but enough to maybe, quantify steady progress. 

 

 

 

An entirely reasonable argument can be made from the available facts as to why it's gone wrong, and without resorting to blaming or vilifying the manager or asserting - based on no more than guess work when available facts say otherwise, that the club lacks ambition. The accusation of being serial chokers is another good one, based on misguided perception even though actual real facts indicate otherwise.

Several posters have made these reasonable arguments but decided they're banging their heads against a brick wall. For that reason I'll not repeat the available facts which indicate it may not be all the manager's fault.

I'm not an LJ/SL fan especially, so agree that there's a trend developing that will need addressing if Johnson is to have success here or anywhere for that matter; agree also he has an awful lot to learn - he isn't half as clever as he appears to think he is - but I suspect he has an employer who will give him plenty of time in which to find his feet.

Whether that's a good idea, only time will tell and we're going to have to like it or lump it.  

[Sparkz 76]

It is progress but how do we define progress play well until Xmas then capitulate for the rest of the season that’s regress in my opinion. How many of these shite runs do we have to endure. Poor signings in January everything off the pitch is good most on the pitch ( where football really matters RESULTS) is poor at the moment. Burn out and injuries have hampered us but there is no excuse for 5 wins in 25 games it’s pathetic and hold the worst away record in the EFL.

Dont get me wrong if the results were mixed at we finished 10th I would be happy but not after the runs we keep having

[cidered abroad]

3 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

I have got zero confidence that he can take us to the next level. I genuinely cannot see performances and results improving come August...as I have zero faith in him recruiting the right calibre of player 

Fingers crossed he gets the boot before he drags us into a relegation scrap

 

Exactly my opinion. The thought of a relegation battle from first game really scares me. He doesn't appear to have any clue about halting the bad runs of form and results. A few weeks ago in interviews, he looked a haunted man similar to McInnes and Ward to name two. 

[GrahamC]

12 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Exactly my opinion. The thought of a relegation battle from first game really scares me. He doesn't appear to have any clue about halting the bad runs of form and results. A few weeks ago in interviews, he looked a haunted man similar to McInnes and Ward to name two. 

I’m no fan but so far he has managed to keep us up when it looked precarious on his arrival and then we started this season like a house on fire.

I remember our “friends” at The Post quoting some computer that predicted we’d be bottom after 6 games (usual unswerving support, eh?).

Why does it necessarily follow that we will start next season poorly just because we have ended this one like that?

We have no idea who will join, a minimal idea (maybe a hunch) who will go.

Fact is the owner likes him, plus finishing 10th makes him far more secure than he was last season when we went on that losing run.

Never going to warm to him myself, but let’s see, eh?

[phantom]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

He gets teams promoted but he rarely either establishes them in the division above himself or leaves any substantial foundations successors can work. For short-term success, Warnock is your man. Is short-term success what we want?

Appreciate that it must have taken a while not only to research this but to also write it up. I don't want to seem overly negative but would I accept us getting up this season and maybe coming straight back down? Hell yeah 100%, Burnley are currently showing how the yoyo affect can be of benefit. 

I could argue that each time we've been promoted in the past we've never established ourselves and often get relegated within a season or two... 

Are we really any different? 

[cidered abroad]

4 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Maybe. But I first watched City in 1989/1990. I think it is very hard to make a case for Gary Johnson NOT being the best manager we have had in that time. And I think it is very hard to find an argument for not putting LJ in the top five, probably top four. You could argue we've had some poor managers, and that would be true, but the reality is that - based on both our history and the experience of other clubs in the Championship who changed manager this season - we are far more likely to replace LJ with a less successful manager than a more successful one. 

Sorry to disagree but the manager when you first went to City, Joe Jordan, is way ahead of the Johnson. 

[RobintheRed Red]

4 hours ago, frenchred said:

Colin was unfortunately correct!

Both Lee and his Dad talk a good game and..................er............that's about it!

spot on why cant people see through the spin the car salesman spins

[ChippenhamRed]

12 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Sorry to disagree but the manager when you first went to City, Joe Jordan, is way ahead of the Johnson. 

Joe Jordan with a 32% win rate, most of which in the third tier v LJ with a 43% win rate all in the second tier?

Yeah, way ahead.

Edit - just realised you’re talking GJ. Point still applies though. Better win rate including higher level games.

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, YorkshireSection said:

Your last paragraph is the BIG question that needs an answer.

If he has no idea to who, what & where it all went wrong, then there is nothing to suggest that we won't be able to correct/stop, another horrendous, long, winless, streak.

I seriously hope, the powers that be, are successful in their autopsy of the second half of our dead season. The number one priority, SHOULD be, working out, why, Lee Johnson's teams, have these unbelievable, losses of form (Barnsley, had the same, awful, run of form; under LJ).  Maybe then, LJ can work on, an effective, plan B & C.

My main concern is, that; there won't be that urgency from above to find out why? How? How indeed could we fall from 2nd in December, to a play off place (we'd all take that), to 10th. If, we can work out the catalyst to these runs, then I think LJ will be a very, popular manager, and an asset to Bristol City. I'am concerned though, that's he has an awful lot to learn, possibly too much to take us up, but enough to maybe, quantify steady progress. 

 

 

 

Those who are backing Johnson seem to believe that he is capable of learning continuously. I don't know why they think that because to me he has now been a full time manager for five years, yet appears to have learnt very little. If he had, would his teams still be lurching from absolutely superb to almost pathetic? 

I certainly do not want the Club to be chopping and changing managers every couple of years but this inconsistent form is taking us nowhere. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

Zero away wins in five months....hardly any shots on target along the way....in what way can that be regarded as progress? Not looking for a row, just feel that looking at final finishing positions is only a tiny portion of the whole story....

[tin]

3 hours ago, bris red said:

Well its a good job Huddersfield Cardiff Swansea Bournemouth and many many other clubs of similar size or smaller to ours didn’t have your outlook ay? Why is it that time and time again we see clubs on our level reach the top flight yet we cannot? I understand we are competing with clubs who financially can out do us but there was a time when many were just like us, Stoke are another good example. 

For me now especially with the stadium in place the historical excuses that always seem to be peddled out by people connected to BCFC are starting to run a bit thin. I also think plenty of managers with previous experience and know how of how to get out of this division would happily come to BCFC, Neil Warnock for example has hinted as much. Mick McCarthy would be another who im sure we could attract and has been there and done it at this level. Maybe you have to question weather the Lansdowns REALLY want it enough, because if they did and i mean really did then its more than doable. Plenty of clubs are testimony to that.. add Brighton to that list too another club that have massively over taken us !! Winds me up!

That’s exactly how I see it, too. 

We’ve been competing with the likes of Cardiff, Stoke, Reading, Fulham, Wigan, Brighton, Hull, Bournemouth, Huddersfield and Swansea in recent years.

None of them were bigger clubs than us when they were in what’s now League 1. The difference is they all went for it when the opportunity arose when the 2 times in my life when we’ve had a great chance to push for promotion to top flight, we’ve sat back and signed the likes of Dele Adebola (not knocking the big man but our style changed after he arrived) and Lois Diony (who’s had no impact at all). 

It all stems from the top and it’s patently clear SL is happy for us to develop players to sell on while staying in the second tier. There’s no ambition beyond that - and that carries its own risks, too. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, bris red said:

Well its a good job Huddersfield Cardiff Swansea Bournemouth and many many other clubs of similar size or smaller to ours didn’t have your outlook ay? Why is it that time and time again we see clubs on our level reach the top flight yet we cannot? I understand we are competing with clubs who financially can out do us but there was a time when many were just like us, Stoke are another good example. 

For me now especially with the stadium in place the historical excuses that always seem to be peddled out by people connected to BCFC are starting to run a bit thin. I also think plenty of managers with previous experience and know how of how to get out of this division would happily come to BCFC, Neil Warnock for example has hinted as much. Mick McCarthy would be another who im sure we could attract and has been there and done it at this level. Maybe you have to question weather the Lansdowns REALLY want it enough, because if they did and i mean really did then its more than doable. Plenty of clubs are testimony to that.. add Brighton to that list too another club that have massively over taken us !! Winds me up!

Run out of reactions - “Like”....

[CyderInACan]

5 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

It's like going to a casino with £10, winning £100, then losing £60 of it.

You're in profit, but there's an overwhelming sense of what could have been.

If you then go back the next day trying to right that feeling and lose another £60 - Despite progress overall the previous day, you're worse off.

Big job now to make sure we don't carry that feeling over the summer. Clubs often struggle with this when losing in the playoffs as well.

Have you ever been to the Grosvenor with me after a big night out in town, perchance!?

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Sorry to disagree but the manager when you first went to City, Joe Jordan, is way ahead of the Johnson. 

Joe Jordan would be top three for sure - him or Cotts for second. But bottom line is Jordan got us automatically promoted but Gary Johnson got us promoted and to the verge of the Premier League.

Maybe if Joe Jordan had stayed another year it would be different but hard to question that Gary Johnson was the more successful or the two. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

15 minutes ago, tin said:

That’s exactly how I see it, too. 

We’ve been competing with the likes of Cardiff, Stoke, Reading, Fulham, Wigan, Brighton, Hull, Bournemouth, Huddersfield and Swansea.....

....and Charlton, Oldham, Swindon, Barnsley, Wimbledon, Blackpool, Ipswich, Southampton, Pompey, Bradford, Blackburn, Forest, Sheff Utd etc etc etc....I think @bris red hit the nail on the head when he or she posted earlier that if SL really wanted premier league football he’d have appointed a proven, successful championship manager....we haven’t had one since Steve Coppell....we ain’t going anywhere soon in terms of promotion....but being in the championship ain’t the worse thing in the world...I just wish those at the top would tell us what they really want....because appointing Millen, McInnes, SOD, Cotts and LJ is not any signal of positive intent with regards to getting out of the championship in an upwards fashion rather than a downwards one....

[View from the Dolman]

14 hours ago, bris red said:

But one thing is for certain, none of those clubs would have touched Lee Johnson would they .. id of bet my house on that. Tells you all you need to know for me.

Nah, they'd rather appoint people like Neil Redfearn and Dave Hockaday (he's now at the dizzying heights of head of male football at SGS College).

[cidercity1987]

17 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

I have got zero confidence that he can take us to the next level. I genuinely cannot see performances and results improving come August...as I have zero faith in him recruiting the right calibre of player 

Fingers crossed he gets the boot before he drags us into a relegation scrap

 

You've had zero confidence since January 2016, since which Johnson has guided us to safety twice and taken us to 2nd in the Championship at Christmas and SF of the Cup. 

[BigAl&Toby]

17 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

2014/15:  Promotion from League One.

2015/16:  Championship 18th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup 1st round (lost to lower division opponents).

2016/17:  Championship 17th.  FA Cup 4th round.  League Cup 4th round.

2017/18:  Championship ?10th.  FA Cup 3rd round.  League Cup semi-finals.  Beat Man Utd and three other premiership teams along the way.

In what way can that not be regarded as progress?

All that may be true. No. It is true.

Is it progress? Real progress? Not for me it isn’t. This is why.

We were standing on the edge of real tangible progress a few months back. We were second. We’d just beaten Man Utd and took Man City really close.

What did we do? Did we show courage and bravery and push on to the ultimate level? Did SL invest in playing staff that could help us achieve that?

Nope we signed mediocre players on loan deals. We started looking at our belly buttons. And the rest is once again history.

Many interesting posts on here about the likes of Swansea, Bournemouth, Huddersfield et al. Perhaps after 45 odd years I have to accept that this is it......

Another post I find interesting is the one about SLs possible real intentions. Is he better off allowing BCFC to remain where we are and developing academy players like Bobby Reid and selling them on for big money, or is the promised land with far greater costs and income a better return?

Guess we’ll never know.

What I do know is I’ve just paid my first instalment on next season’s season ticket...