Is this the true definition of PROGRESS?

[cidered abroad]

20 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

You've had zero confidence since January 2016, since which Johnson has guided us to safety twice and taken us to 2nd in the Championship at Christmas and SF of the Cup. 

That is looking at it with blinkers on. 

The world did not end after the Reading home game on Boxing Day in the same way  neither did it begin in 1992 with the renaming of the First Division to Premier League. 

Our performances since 30 December have been haphazard to say the least. Continue like this in August and we all know what will happen. 

[oldstandrobin]

12 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

....and Charlton, Oldham, Swindon, Barnsley, Wimbledon, Blackpool, Ipswich, Southampton, Pompey, Bradford, Blackburn, Forest, Sheff Utd etc etc etc....I think @bris red hit the nail on the head when he or she posted earlier that if SL really wanted premier league football he’d have appointed a proven, successful championship manager....we haven’t had one since Steve Coppell....we ain’t going anywhere soon in terms of promotion....but being in the championship ain’t the worse thing in the world...I just wish those at the top would tell us what they really want....because appointing Millen, McInnes, SOD, Cotts and LJ is not any signal of positive intent with regards to getting out of the championship in an upwards fashion rather than a downwards one....

[Andy082005]

4 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

You've had zero confidence since January 2016, since which Johnson has guided us to safety twice and taken us to 2nd in the Championship at Christmas and SF of the Cup. 

Guided us to safety twice?

With the resources he had available so he bloody should 

And 2nd in the championship? Yeah that was half way through a season mate. Were not Swindon...let's not celebrate that

LJ has also bought in 30+ players, of which only a small percentage have improved the starting 11

If you want to talk 2nd in the league...he also took is from that position to 10th. He took us from a point where we were 20 points ahead of a team with lesser resources...and finished below them!

The semi final was a cracking effort. But any cup competition can provide moments like that...as it's one of single games, where every team has a punchers chance 

And you are right. I have never had any confidence in him. He is great and sucking people into believing he is a top young coach...and plenty of fans believe it. 

Next season we will see though. All the fans on here that have been dining out on "bigger pictures" and "long term plans" can't do that forever....and neither can the club. At some point they have to start delivering some consistency in this league and stop trying to con us all into thinking "we are a young team who are learning"

Our team isn't that young and our team isn't that inexperienced 

[BS4 on Tour...]

19 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

We could attract Mick McCarthy. Very good manager but he didn't get Ipswich up and no guarantee he would for us either. 

He had no money to spend at Ipswich (spent less than £6m on players for the whole of his 6 year stint in charge) - he did an amazing job at Portman Road under those circumstances. And don’t forget he took both Wolves and Sunderland up to the premier league as champions of the championship....

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

He had no money to spend at Ipswich (spent less than £6m on players for the whole of his 6 year stint in charge) - he did an amazing job at Portman Road under those circumstances. And don’t forget he took both Wolves and Sunderland up to the premier league as champions of the championship....

You keep saying BS4 -

that he got both Wolves and Sunderland promoted

 and kept Ipswich mid table with no budget

But what else has he done ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh managed Repulic of Ireland and took them to a World Cup

So 

Other than getting both Wolves and Sunderland promoted (Accepting there is a  Wolves fan who doesn’t like him)

 Keeping  Ipswich mid table with no budget

Managing Republic  of Ireland and took them to a World Cup

.......... what else has he done ?

 

[LondonBristolian]

27 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

He had no money to spend at Ipswich (spent less than £6m on players for the whole of his 6 year stint in charge) - he did an amazing job at Portman Road under those circumstances. And don’t forget he took both Wolves and Sunderland up to the premier league as champions of the championship....

I agree. He did a superb job at a club that struggled to compete financially in the Championship, keeping them comfortably mid-table and occasionally flirting with the play-offs. I have no doubt if he came here, he would overachieve relative to our resources. But those resources are something like the 17th or 18th highest in the division - he might get us top half every season but here is no guarantee he would get us promoted. 

With Wolves and Sunderland, he did a great job but he did that job with the resources to compete with the biggest clubs in the division. We do no currently have those resources and, due to FFP, we need to grow the club in order to be able to spend more, which will take a number of years. My point is not in any way a criticism of McCarthy as a manager - merely that appointing an established manager is no guarantee we will challenge for promotion unless we have the resources to support them. Even with our dire form since January, we have overachieved this season relative to our resources. A manager like McCarthy might reliably mean we can continue to overachieve, and do so without horrendous dips in form, but he would not guarantee us promotion.  Even the best manager we can find is restricted by the tools he has available. 

[BigAl&Toby]

4 hours ago, oldstandrobin said:

I came to the conclusion quite early on that Lansdown doesn’t attach the same degree of importance to promotion for Bristol City Football Club as I do. Or many others.

His main concern is Bristol Sport of which the football club that many of us have supported for more years then we might care to remember is now only a part.

Most recently we were second in the league. We were on telly on a regular basis. We even made the news on Radio 4.  We were in a position of national interest and in the best position we’ve been in for years.

What happened. We ****** it up. Brought in players on loan signings that weren’t upto the job. We stopped playing the football that had got us into that position. And now we are where we are. Another season that at times promised so very much and that ended up disappointing us all again.

January was the time to demonstrate true commitment to Bristol City Football Club. Actions speak far louder than words.

I seriously doubt whether those at the top who run Bristol Sport or Bristol City Football Club really do want to see Premiership football at BS3 to the same extent that many of the club’s true fans want it.

[Gert Mare]

If we are indeed “progressing” then how come out of the top 6 teams in December are we the only club to completely balls it up?

[phantom]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

But what else has he done ?

Got Millwall to 3rd in the table before losing in a play off final - went to Eire after that season

Millwall were 14 points clear of the drop when he left, and were eventually relegated later that season (now who would hit a poor run of form like that?!?)

[numbeast]

It seems like people only look to aportion blame to Johnson or occasionally Steve Lansdown / the board and hardly ever look to those who cross the touch line. In the first half of the season we performed way above even the most optimistic fan expectations fuelling our belief we could challenge for promotion. The second half we weren't even at the races. The question is did Lee Johnson tell them to stop playing the attractive winning football or did the players take their foot off the gas?

After the run in the cup several players were said to be attracting Premier club interest, Bobby, Joe and Josh Brownhill to name 3. Is it a coincidence that, certainly Bryan and Brownhill seemed to be less affective? Bailey Wright had a mare against Brentford  (although not the only one by any means) he look nothing like the guy playing Man U out of position. Had we not been hit by so many injuries LJ could have dropped or rested those who were playing below par. 

SL sold him down river by not strengthening in Jan. Johnson isn't going to say that because, as we know, Lansdown isn't just his boss and club owner but a friend also. There is a lot of blame to share out as to why we crashed as we did. But I feel the players deserve quite a large chunk of the blame.

[phantom]

8 minutes ago, numbeast said:

It seems like people only look to aportion blame to Johnson or occasionally Steve Lansdown / the board and hardly ever look to those who cross the touch line

True, but in my job if my team are not performing the buck stops with me

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

6 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

You've had zero confidence since January 2016, since which Johnson has guided us to safety twice and taken us to 2nd in the Championship at Christmas and SF of the Cup. 

The Titanic was still afloat and at full steam, when half way across the Atlantic.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Even the best manager we can find is restricted by the tools he has available. 

That’s no way to describe our players!!

[numbeast]

39 minutes ago, phantom said:

True, but in my job if my team are not performing the buck stops with me

But most fans work in the real world where if you screw up you get 2 written warnings then fired. In the fantasy world the players are in they know poor performance won't get them sacked. I'm not saying they deliberately play poorly but only they can alter it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Gert Mare]

3 hours ago, Juan Kerr said:

The Titanic was still afloat and at full steam, when half way across the Atlantic.

Brilliant analogy!

Quite simply where we are at the moment is where we were at the middle of last season when the team crashed and only just avoided relegation. 

There is no progress. We have gone backwards since Christmas and people need to take the rose-tinted specs off. 

[cidered abroad]

7 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You keep saying BS4 -

that he got both Wolves and Sunderland promoted

 and kept Ipswich mid table with no budget

But what else has he done ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh managed Repulic of Ireland and took them to a World Cup

So 

Other than getting both Wolves and Sunderland promoted (Accepting there is a  Wolves fan who doesn’t like him)

 Keeping  Ipswich mid table with no budget

Managing Republic  of Ireland and took them to a World Cup

.......... what else has he done ?

 

Appears to be one of the most honest managers around at the moment. A bit old school where he calls a spade a shovel, I've never heard him slate his own players in public. Told his players to put the ball out of play at City this season when one of ours was down injured. Proven record at this level and above. I'd guess he wouldn't suit SL. 

The ideal for me would be MMc as a director of football to help LJ improve or at least to see whether LJ is able to develop into a top manager. I'm very hesitant on that as I see the same faults as his Dad: not too good at putting wrongs right and not comfortable managing the top echelon of players. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Appears to be one of the most honest managers around at the moment. A bit old school where he calls a spade a shovel, I've never heard him slate his own players in public. Told his players to put the ball out of play at City this season when one of ours was down injured. Proven record at this level and above. I'd guess he wouldn't suit SL. 

The ideal for me would be MMc as a director of football to help LJ improve or at least to see whether LJ is able to develop into a top manager. I'm very hesitant on that as I see the same faults as his Dad: not too good at putting wrongs right and not comfortable managing the top echelon of players. 

I like MM but not sure he’d want a DOF Type role - strikes me as somebody who wants to be hands on !

(Don’t think Tomlin would threaten to knock MMs head off !!! 

‘Wheres Tomlin Mick ?’

’ Eeeeees ooop BRI’

 

And Tbf to Lee I don’t think he’d be happy at all at the suggestion and having been the main man I can understand that

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I like MM but not sure he’d want a DOF Type role - strikes me as somebody who wants to be hands on !

(Don’t think Tomlin would threaten to knock MMs head off !!! 

‘Wheres Tomlin Mick ?’

’ Eeeeees ooop BRI’

 

And Tbf to Lee I don’t think he’d be happy at all at the suggestion and having been the main man I can understand that

Your last paragraph is spot on. Thinking it through, perhaps LJ would be most suited to a role as Head Coach or director of the Academy. Improving youngsters without having to deal with all the baggage of/from older pros. 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, numbeast said:

It seems like people only look to aportion blame to Johnson or occasionally Steve Lansdown / the board and hardly ever look to those who cross the touch line. In the first half of the season we performed way above even the most optimistic fan expectations fuelling our belief we could challenge for promotion. The second half we weren't even at the races. The question is did Lee Johnson tell them to stop playing the attractive winning football or did the players take their foot off the gas?

After the run in the cup several players were said to be attracting Premier club interest, Bobby, Joe and Josh Brownhill to name 3. Is it a coincidence that, certainly Bryan and Brownhill seemed to be less affective? Bailey Wright had a mare against Brentford  (although not the only one by any means) he look nothing like the guy playing Man U out of position. Had we not been hit by so many injuries LJ could have dropped or rested those who were playing below par. 

SL sold him down river by not strengthening in Jan. Johnson isn't going to say that because, as we know, Lansdown isn't just his boss and club owner but a friend also. There is a lot of blame to share out as to why we crashed as we did. But I feel the players deserve quite a large chunk of the blame.

I think a good few of us aren’t laying all of the blame at Lee’s feet....

8 hours ago, phantom said:

True, but in my job if my team are not performing the buck stops with me

...but he picks the team, tactics etc.

i don’t necessarily subscribe to the view that the 4420 formation with a Pato and Reid, would’ve seen us alright for the second half of the season.  But I do think we were sussed out.  Opposition managers would be asking “how do we stop that high pressing young Bristol City side?”

• out-muscle them, make it a physical battle
• stretch the game out to make it difficult for volume player press to work
• bypass playing through midfield 
• etc

How quickly did LJ react to this, either in pre-match prep, or tweaking tactics in games?  Not quickly enough and probably not correctly either (in most cases).

I still think our January signings were what I expected, in terms of money spent, but I couldn’t see the logic in Kent...a winger...we don’t play with wingers.  I don’t criticise Walsh or Diony, because we can all be wise after the event in Diony’s case.  Walsh showed the promise we bought him for against Forest.  Why hasn’t he been given more time?

I think I will stand by my comment that I think LJ is a decent coach, but not a good match day manager.  You can coach theory into practice without too much difficulty on the training ground, because you are in control of the “opposition” e.g. in attack v defence.  On match day that goes out the window, because someone else controls the opposition.  I still wonder what the assistants and analysts are watching.  How difficult is it to see the control of the game beginning to get away from you and bark at someone like Korey Smith and say:

- Sunderland - “oi Korey, just effin’ sit on McGeady for the next 10, follow him everywhere, he’s getting on the ball too much in pockets, he’s cheating, just go man2man on him.  Eff everything else, he’s the reason we’re getting stretched.  Don’t let the effer get on the ball”.

- Hull - “Josh, I told you to come on and make a 5, you’re effin further forward than Fam.  Get back in that 5, and stop Larson getting on it and spraying it around...the games won at 4-2, if I see you past Larson, I’ll bring you off, and i’ve Only just brought you on”

Okay, a bit extreme.....or is it???  

[Fuber]

On 02/05/2018 at 17:51, GrahamC said:

I’m no fan but so far he has managed to keep us up when it looked precarious on his arrival and then we started this season like a house on fire.

Cotts Spending (15/16) - £3m.

Current Net profit from Cotts signings that season - +£11.5m

LJ comes in after we've pumped for three PL loan players under Pemberton. We survive.

LJ Spending (16/17): -£11.4m

LJ Spending (17/18): -£12.2m

How much of it was due to Lee having better players at his disposal? Tomlin's impact?

We started both seasons like a house on fire.

And both times the sprinklers kicked in before January.

[REDOXO]

On 02/05/2018 at 07:05, Curr Avon said:

When your League position says higher, but your performance level says liar.

I have by and large stayed away from this dark dark place recently and will limit myself over the summer. However I'm in the mood to let off a little steam now.

For the record I have watched every match home and away in the league this season and most of our cup ties.

We went through the worst run in the clubs history last season. It was horrible thing to watch. We were truly awful. Miraculously (some would say through hard work) we found some form, particularly Brownhill and the much maligned Taylor and we had the driving force of Wilbraham in the dressing room among other factors.

We started this season OK but being played off the park by Brentford was a warning, the 98th minute equaliser could not paper over those cracks.

Our form really started to improve we looked good we high pressed and passed the ball in tight spaces, for the most part looking neat and picking up points even to the extent that we somehow won at Hull, while having a real off day, away at Sheff Utd with a last gasp winner among other notable results and performances. At the back end of 2017 we were contenders! A real chance was in the offing and the LJ supporters were out in force all over this board and on the radio with the I told you so's. The close to tearful rant of the bloke from Shirehampton on radio Briz was the highlight of the I told you so brigade, telling you so! And good for them!

By EO December early Jan we had something of an injury crisis. The core group were starting to show the strain and the thumping at Villa was the sign we needed help badly. However adrenaline being the thing it was The Bryans and The Pattersons et al kept finding something and dug deeper and deeper somehow getting us to within touching distance of a major final for the first time in over 100 years.It was not to be alas.

We knew at that point that The Engvals/Elliasons/Woodrows would be less than bit part bench-warmers the O'Neils and ODowda's etc etc etc etc were out and we needed to supplement what we had, and Magnússon was no better than a shirt filler (sorry but just look at the guy he has at least one major mistake in every game, wherever he plays).

We got in Diony and the two scousers!,

Diony is the worst forward we have had since, well ever, the bloke's complete loss of form is legendary he can not pass, trap or god forbid shoot! In short we took a massive risk on a completely out of form player....In hindsight the not offering Wilbraham a playing contract was a massive error....But hey I wont be Captain Hindsight...Yeah I will...! Good god we took the sort of risk that we should never have taken in view of where we were with this guy, compounded by the headless chicken on loan and the signing of another player for a substantial fee who could not trap or pass and who was assigned to the dustbin as quickly as he came....The miss control of a football by this bloke against Man City will always stick in my mind, with Magnússon getting beaten on the by line again to concede an identical goal as to one he had already!

So lets look at our form since Feb....Marginally better than the LLL LLLLL LL of the previous season but are we better....I will let the reader decide!

But it is a racing certainty we will lose several of our best players to big bids (nearly all of these key players played under SC). If anyone can see Reid, Flint, Bryan, Pack still here in August they have a better crystal ball than me. On top of this, there is a likelihood of bids for Brownhill possibly Odowda and why would Smith want to stay...Why do people overlook him when it comes to transfers?

My point is we blew a wonderful chance at a shot at the big time. While a few LJ/MA signings have been decent by and large thus far you can point to more duds than winners, particularly when we needed winners not duds!!

So to my point. Progress yeah we are six places higher than we finished last season so Yep, progress over a year. However since Jan we have gone backward faster than an Italian tank...No high press, Bobby Reid on the wing, nutty substitutions and humping long balls. So progress since January....Not on your life. Couple that with the bids for our best players that the press seem confident are coming, who knows where will be come August...? That's not progress either that leaves us no better off than where we ever were!