Unan Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 They seem happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggersno1Fan Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Stoke are going down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, Maggersno1Fan said: Stoke are going down Why? Their manager got his previous club into the championship play offs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggersno1Fan Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 17 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Why? Their manager got his previous club into the championship play offs..... The way of the world onlybgot look at other managers who gone elsewhere & struggled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loosey Boy Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Poor from Rowett......claims to have been a Derby fan and then leaves given the first opportunity. There is a saying.....the grass isn't always greener - wonder if he will end up regretting making the move! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Maggersno1Fan said: The way of the world onlybgot look at other managers who gone elsewhere & struggled stoke will be top 6, they have a decent squad and about 150 million quid just for being relegated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggersno1Fan Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Monkeh said: stoke will be top 6, they have a decent squad and about 150 million quid just for being relegated Same could been said for the others who bottomed out to league 1. i think Swansea go straight back up & Westbrom will linger around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossi the Robin Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 I wouldnt be surprised if Derby wanted him to go and Stoke actually helped them out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Maggersno1Fan said: Same could been said for the others who bottomed out to league 1. i think Swansea go straight back up & Westbrom will linger around no i said sunderland would drop again, they were in a far worse postion then stoke are they had no money for a start and a crap squad, stoke on the other hand are quite well off and have a decent squad and with a decent manager will do extremely well, Hull had no money but didn't go down and middlesborough got into the play-offs so of the others you mention only 1 got relegated who are in real free fall one finished lower mid table and the other top 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Derby could be interesting next season. They now have a crucial off season where they need to replace their backroom staff and then conduct a major overhaul on an aging and expensive squad. Their squad was the oldest in the division last season with an average age of 29.5 years and 55.9% of their playing minutes being racked up by players in their 30s compared to just 1.1% by those aged 21 or under – the highest and lowest in the division respectively. Also they only used 27 different players across the 46 matches. Only Millwall used fewer (24) and we used 30 (all sourced from Experimental 361). So their squad needs a massive injection of younger fresher legs to provide some squad depth if nothing else. Now they could either do this very successfully, get in a new manager with great connections and drive it forward, building a team around players like Vydra, Lawrence and Weimann and pushing forward. Alternatively they could fall apart, they could appoint Mick McCarthy and crack on with the same players they used this season but who have another year in their legs. Either way I think it's a little too early to completely write them off, or to nail them on for a top 6 finish. What I do think is that they won't be a mid-table team - I'd expect them to either sink or swim depending on which of the above strategies they go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: Derby could be interesting next season. They now have a crucial off season where they need to replace their backroom staff and then conduct a major overhaul on an aging and expensive squad. Their squad was the oldest in the division last season with an average age of 29.5 years and 55.9% of their playing minutes being racked up by players in their 30s compared to just 1.1% by those aged 21 or under – the highest and lowest in the division respectively. Also they only used 27 different players across the 46 matches. Only Millwall used fewer (24) and we used 30 (all sourced from Experimental 361). So their squad needs a massive injection of younger fresher legs to provide some squad depth if nothing else. Now they could either do this very successfully, get in a new manager with great connections and drive it forward, building a team around players like Vydra, Lawrence and Weimann and pushing forward. Alternatively they could fall apart, they could appoint Mick McCarthy and crack on with the same players they used this season but who have another year in their legs. Either way I think it's a little too early to completely write them off, or to nail them on for a top 6 finish. What I do think is that they won't be a mid-table team - I'd expect them to either sink or swim depending on which of the above strategies they go for. add into the fact they have no money and need to slash the wage bill to meet their FFP commitments, I think Derby will soon be another Ipswich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Monkeh said: add into the fact they have no money and need to slash the wage bill to meet their FFP commitments, I think Derby will soon be another Ipswich Sure, so that suggests they'll actually be selling people like Vydra - thus making the whole team reconstruction even tougher. Have to say that if I had to stake money on it I'd be going for the bottom 6 rather than the top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: Sure, so that suggests they'll actually be selling people like Vydra - thus making the whole team reconstruction even tougher. Have to say that if I had to stake money on it I'd be going for the bottom 6 rather than the top 6. nah I think they'll be in and around 10th at this moment in time, but as you said it's far to early to say, Derby are a good club but they went for it (somthing some of our fans want) with expensive signings a few years back and didn't make it and now are dealing with the short term-ism that their board took Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Maggersno1Fan said: Same could been said for the others who bottomed out to league 1. i think Swansea go straight back up & Westbrom will linger around I agree they kinda lingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Genuine question. Is Rowett’s record any better than LJ? My memory is he did a decent job at Burton without getting promotion, took Birmingham from relegation strugglers to just outside the play-offs and then got Derby into the top six and then had a post-Christmas collapse. If I was a betting man, I’d put my money on him leaving Stoke mid-season with them sitting outside the play-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said: Genuine question. Is Rowett’s record any better than LJ? My memory is he did a decent job at Burton without getting promotion, took Birmingham from relegation strugglers to just outside the play-offs and then got Derby into the top six and then had a post-Christmas collapse. If I was a betting man, I’d put my money on him leaving Stoke mid-season with them sitting outside the play-offs. Managerial record by team and tenure Team From To Record Ref. P W D L Win % Burton Albion 17 March 2012 27 October 2014 142 63 34 45 44.4 [25] Birmingham City 27 October 2014 14 December 2016 106 42 32 32 39.6 [25] Derby County 14 March 2017 22 May 2018 60 26 18 16 43.3 Managerial record by team and tenure Team From To Record Ref. P W D L Win % Oldham Athletic 18 March 2013 25 February 2015 103 36 32 35 35.0 [33] Barnsley 25 February 2015 6 February 2016 51 20 13 18 39.2 [23][33][34] Bristol City 6 February 2016 Present 123 48 29 46 39.0 [23][33] so yes it's much better then johnsons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Monkeh said: Managerial record by team and tenure Team From To Record Ref. P W D L Win % Burton Albion 17 March 2012 27 October 2014 142 63 34 45 44.4 [25] Birmingham City 27 October 2014 14 December 2016 106 42 32 32 39.6 [25] Derby County 14 March 2017 22 May 2018 60 26 18 16 43.3 Managerial record by team and tenure Team From To Record Ref. P W D L Win % Oldham Athletic 18 March 2013 25 February 2015 103 36 32 35 35.0 [33] Barnsley 25 February 2015 6 February 2016 51 20 13 18 39.2 [23][33][34] Bristol City 6 February 2016 Present 123 48 29 46 39.0 [23][33] so yes it's much better then johnsons What happens when it is weighted for expectation though? Surely the judge of a managerial record isn't points per game so much as the difference between how the manager does and how you would expect the manager to do with a different club? For example, look at David Moyes' record at Everton versus his record at Man Utd: Everton 14 March 2002[13] 30 June 2013[31] 518 218 139 161 42.08 [79] Manchester United 1 July 2013[31] 22 April 2014[54] 51 27 9 15 52.94 [80] On a simple glance, Moyes did a significantly better job at Man Utd than he did at Everton. But that's obviously not true because he over-achieved on expectations with Everton and underachieved at Man Utd. The Burton record is impressive but Barnsley and Birmingham were arguably of similar stature in their respective divisions and the results are similar.He has a better record at Derby than LJ at Bristol City but Derby are a bigger team with significantly more resources so surely you would expect any Derby manager to have a higher win % than Bristol City manager. I can't see any thing in Rowett's record in the Championship that suggests that he does a better than average job relative to the resources he has at his disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said: What happens when it is weighted for expectation though? Surely the judge of a managerial record isn't points per game so much as the difference between how the manager does and how you would expect the manager to do with a different club? For example, look at David Moyes' record at Everton versus his record at Man Utd: Everton 14 March 2002[13] 30 June 2013[31] 518 218 139 161 42.08 [79] Manchester United 1 July 2013[31] 22 April 2014[54] 51 27 9 15 52.94 [80] On a simple glance, Moyes did a significantly better job at Man Utd than he did at Everton. But that's obviously not true because he over-achieved on expectations with Everton and underachieved at Man Utd. The Burton record is impressive but Barnsley and Birmingham were arguably of similar stature in their respective divisions and the results are similar.He has a better record at Derby than LJ at Bristol City but Derby are a bigger team with significantly more resources so surely you would expect any Derby manager to have a higher win % than Bristol City manager. I can't see any thing in Rowett's record in the Championship that suggests that he does a better than average job relative to the resources he has at his disposal. apart from being a better manager, he did a fantastic job at burton and birmingham prior and got Derby into to the play-offs, where as we have a manager who every season goes on a terrible run of about 12 to 13 games (quarter of a season) and you can't compare it to Moyes, different set of circumstances for one he took over the side that just won the prem and managed to finish 7th (not even a europa cup place) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Major Isewater said: I agree they kinda lingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Monkeh said: apart from being a better manager, he did a fantastic job at burton and birmingham prior and got Derby into to the play-offs, where as we have a manager who every season goes on a terrible run of about 12 to 13 games (quarter of a season) and you can't compare it to Moyes, different set of circumstances for one he took over the side that just won the prem and managed to finish 7th (not even a europa cup place) He did a fantastic job at Burton for sure. Derby have been in the play-offs three out of the last six seasons. Getting to the play-offs is the minimum expectation. Their run from Christmas to April was not much better than ours was, save that they pulled it together in the last few games to scrape into the play-offs. Re Moyes - that is literally my point. Expectations at Derby are much higher than Bristol City, as are the budgets. It is absurd to make a like for like comparison. The "fantastic job" Rowett did at Birmingham was too take over a relegation side who were struggling, turn them round and get them into the vague direction of (but not into) the play-offs with a win % of around 39%. Is that really so different to LJ's not so fantastic job at Bristol City? There is a popular perception that Rowett is a good manager - largely based on his job at Burton and first few months at Birmingham. But there are a lack of real achievements to back that up. At Stoke, it is not going to be enough to scrape into the play-offs and I am not confident he can deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: He did a fantastic job at Burton for sure. Derby have been in the play-offs three out of the last six seasons. Getting to the play-offs is the minimum expectation. Their run from Christmas to April was not much better than ours was, save that they pulled it together in the last few games to scrape into the play-offs. Re Moyes - that is literally my point. Expectations at Derby are much higher than Bristol City, as are the budgets. It is absurd to make a like for like comparison. The "fantastic job" Rowett did at Birmingham was too take over a relegation side who were struggling, turn them round and get them into the vague direction of (but not into) the play-offs with a win % of around 39%. Is that really so different to LJ's not so fantastic job at Bristol City? There is a popular perception that Rowett is a good manager - largely based on his job at Burton and first few months at Birmingham. But there are a lack of real achievements to back that up. At Stoke, it is not going to be enough to scrape into the play-offs and I am not confident he can deliver. He (Rowett) inherited a mess at Birmingham though, did well. Decent manager, if tactically limited IMO. That said, Derby are somewhat overrated IMO so he did a decent job getting them to the playoffs- aging side or at least lot of players past their best. He will be expected to be on the front foot, more attacking with Stoke- sides will press them, and yet sit back given they are a freshly relegated side- different tactical challenge for him, like you not wholly confident he will deliver at Stoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Maggersno1Fan said: Same could been said for the others who bottomed out to league 1. i think Swansea go straight back up & Westbrom will linger around Not sure any of the relegated sides will go straight back up tbh- they all have their issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe hicks Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: He (Rowett) inherited a mess at Birmingham though, did well. Decent manager, if tactically limited IMO. That said, Derby are somewhat overrated IMO so he did a decent job getting them to the playoffs- aging side or at least lot of players past their best. He will be expected to be on the front foot, more attacking with Stoke- sides will press them, and yet sit back given they are a freshly relegated side- different tactical challenge for him, like you not wholly confident he will deliver at Stoke. I'd suggest clough has done a better job at Burton, keeping then up, then just failing this season. Stoke are confusing the hell out of me, sacking Hughs, replacing with Lambert, failed again. Now Rowett. Arguably Hughs was/is a better manager out of those 3, keeping Southampton up proves this. The Panic that ensues clubs when the possibility of relegation from the premier league, Swansea, WBA, also, where as Burnley stuck with Dyche. Now European football next season. Lessons learned? Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 22 minutes ago, Joe hicks said: I'd suggest clough has done a better job at Burton, keeping then up, then just failing this season. Stoke are confusing the hell out of me, sacking Hughs, replacing with Lambert, failed again. Now Rowett. Arguably Hughs was/is a better manager out of those 3, keeping Southampton up proves this. The Panic that ensues clubs when the possibility of relegation from the premier league, Swansea, WBA, also, where as Burnley stuck with Dyche. Now European football next season. Lessons learned? Probably not. west brom and stoke are better placed to go back up imo, both have decent set ups, Stoke signed a couple of bad apples under hughes get rid of those and they will bounce right back up, West Brom paid for not doing due diligence of Pardew and paid the price, they also have a good squad and set up and I think will ether walk te league next season or the season after, Swansea are in free fall, fans are vocal about the chairman and the new owners aren't interested, just like sunderland, they will struggle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Monkeh said: west brom and stoke are better placed to go back up imo, both have decent set ups, Stoke signed a couple of bad apples under hughes get rid of those and they will bounce right back up, West Brom paid for not doing due diligence of Pardew and paid the price, they also have a good squad and set up and I think will ether walk te league next season or the season after, Swansea are in free fall, fans are vocal about the chairman and the new owners aren't interested, just like sunderland, they will struggle Lots wondering whether the left over funds from Sigurdsson are being used to pay Rooney for DC United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 19 hours ago, Joe hicks said: I'd suggest clough has done a better job at Burton, keeping then up, then just failing this season. Stoke are confusing the hell out of me, sacking Hughs, replacing with Lambert, failed again. Now Rowett. Arguably Hughs was/is a better manager out of those 3, keeping Southampton up proves this. The Panic that ensues clubs when the possibility of relegation from the premier league, Swansea, WBA, also, where as Burnley stuck with Dyche. Now European football next season. Lessons learned? Probably not. Tbh, on paper WBA and Stoke- talking purely technical ability wise- neither should have gone down IMO. I know the game is about a lot more, a lot more is needed but quite a few players from those 2 particularly will be snapped up by PL or decent European clubs tbh. If I'm a middling yet reasonably ambitious club here or in Europe and maybe wages a stumbling block- I'd be thinking- that's before we even get to big clubs who maybe interested: Martins Indi, Shawcross, Bauer, N'Diaye. Butland and Shaqiri may well be targeted by higher clubs. I'm sure there are more by mid ranking clubs, it's off the top of my head. WBA? Evans, Dawson, Gibbs, Chadli, Rodriguez, Rondon. Maybe Hegazhi too. Again as above sure there are others too. Another poster said both well run? Perhaps but not this season- FFP could play a part too. This doesn't include loanees who were there but could still have the ability to do okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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