Style of play...

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Im not so sure. We pressed ridiculous amounts in games, literally all sprinting after the ball like kids in a playground. Was a bit over the top imo. I think we went more direct because the pressing and passing stopped working. Many goalkeepers kick it to the sides, it's quite common nowadays as it's seen as dangerous to go down the middle and potentially put yourself under pressure. 

The team pressed high for a short period of time and the pressing was focussed on the trigger of Reid/the ball being played to the fullback the team used a unit to press and screened behind it. It was hardly haphazard. 

The team went more direct because Lee Johnson included players like Famara and Djuric (a platform). Hitting that platform longer was intentional. Reid the was sacrificed into a deeper role. The teams pressing became withdrawn. Both were  the managers intent. The results worsened in unison with the changes if that is the sole definition of working.

Goal kicks...I have made that point and broken it down. It is less dangerous, however playing the ball out to splitting centre backs is more efficient if retention of the ball is important. Teams that want to Keep the ball generally do not create contested aerial duels v simply looking first to roll the ball out. 

[Cowshed]

38 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But quite often passing it short is not on. I think he generally tries to play it short when he can but opponents mark our centre backs in the wide areas and also get on Pack or Smith coming deep. Thought we brought Diedhiou back because teams had sussed out how to stop us with Reid and Pato up top. Most fans were crying out for his return. However it did mean we were less effective pressing.

Short passing is frequently on. That goal kick is deliberately and intentionally not looking to go short. Its primary position does not create space for players to drop into because it limits options. 

Its your perception that Diedhiou was brought back in when fit because teams had worked BCFC out, another can be it was always the intent e.g. That is why he was signed to be in the starting XI as its centre forward. The squad clearly had no options to cover Reid and his capacity to lead the pressing if injured because it was not the teams long term focus - Diedhiou was.

Some fans might have been crying. Many supporters were certainly less than impressed by the teams poor form from Jan/ Feb onwards, form which coincided with a change in approach and personnel.   

Approach with Diedhiou's, Diony, Djuric in the team affects the role of first defender and defensive shape as it does with Reids inclusion. Players have different aptitudes.. The D's there do not cover the same distances.

Diedhiou's inclusion means the pressing style the team had used with Reid as its trigger had to be less effective - The team ceased to do it. Note I mention a former style. City with Diedhiou in the XI still pressed but deeper, frequently dropping off into shape, screening and pressing the ball in zones with less counter pressing. Its quite a different approach and if judged solely by the metric of results it was ineffectual.

 

[cidered abroad]

We see good quality foreign clubs and countries with the keeper making shirt passes to defenders who have an opponent in close proximity. In Britain, the we don't play like this mainly because our defenders are nowhere near as comfortable with that type of game. So keepers tend to go long and it then becomes a lottery. 

If we have defenders who are comfortable then we can use our goalie to start the shorter passing and if we then use the ball well, we've taken two or three opponents out of the game. So the the opposition don't press so high so we get more time on the first to work tha openings further up the pitch. 

The tactics then become more like most other countries with time on the ball to find and work openings instead of lumping it upfield to a target striker. 

It comes down to a case of which system do we consider is most suitable for us. We've never been a long ball club like some, Wolves and BRFC for example, so it's clear to me which way we should go. 

[BCFC_Dan]

12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Liverpool press far more vigorously for a season than Bristol City did for a few months of last season. If Bristol City ran out of steam by January there was something seriously wrong with the squads preparation and fitness. 

Cardiff pressed aggressively and did so with possession of less than 50% - They are not keeping the ball -  They chased it more than BCFC did.

Famara physically cannot press adeptly. His prescience in the team means the side presses deeper, if it does because Famara frequently does not act as the first defender and trigger to work off. Its highly debatable if he has the fitness and mobility for it. Djuric ditto … Both have attributes to bring to the XI but swarming the opposition as Bobby did aggressively as the first defender is not one of their primary skills.

There are multitudes of pressing styles. Counter pressing is effective allied to a short passing game - When the team loses it the team is in close proximity to win it back as they will frequently outnumber the opposition in a unit, and then can transition in numbers. Bristol City could effectively keep the ball last season when instructed and could also pass the football accurately when instructed. 

The reason Bristol City ceased pressing high last season was because Lee Johnson did not want them to. The reason Bristol City stopped keeping the ball as well as they did, and at times the team monopolised over 60% of possession x high passing accuracies was because Lee Johnson did not want/need/desire them too - He (re) introduced players into the team who would only more encourage long passing, less accuracy, less possession in an effort to add verticality and tempo - A positive or negative depending on footballing preference.

Any side that has a Keeper who does that with goal kicks is not valuing possession particularly highly.

Interesting and largely correct, I think.

I've been working on the assumption that the team carried on trying to play the way it did in December but with less success due to fatigue. You are quite right to point out that the personnel changed, particularly with the return of Diedhiou and that that had a significant effect on the style. That said, had the team remained as it was in December then we probably would have seen them fall away due to fatigue as they didn't have enough players who could play that way. Liverpool probably (though I can't say this with any great confidence) have more players in their squad who can play in the same way.

If all this is true, though, then that suggests that the way the team played during the most successful period of last season (November and December) was not the way that Lee Johnson intended them to play, and that when they were playing the way he wanted them to the performances and results got worse. There are several conclusions that could be drawn from that, not all of them terrible, but it's certainly odd.

 

[Three Lions]

13 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Liverpool press far more vigorously for a season than Bristol City did for a few months of last season. If Bristol City ran out of steam by January there was something seriously wrong with the squads preparation and fitness. 

Cardiff pressed aggressively and did so with possession of less than 50% - They are not keeping the ball -  They chased it more than BCFC did.

Famara physically cannot press adeptly. His prescience in the team means the side presses deeper, if it does because Famara frequently does not act as the first defender and trigger to work off. Its highly debatable if he has the fitness and mobility for it. Djuric ditto … Both have attributes to bring to the XI but swarming the opposition as Bobby did aggressively as the first defender is not one of their primary skills.

There are multitudes of pressing styles. Counter pressing is effective allied to a short passing game - When the team loses it the team is in close proximity to win it back as they will frequently outnumber the opposition in a unit, and then can transition in numbers. Bristol City could effectively keep the ball last season when instructed and could also pass the football accurately when instructed. 

The reason Bristol City ceased pressing high last season was because Lee Johnson did not want them to. The reason Bristol City stopped keeping the ball as well as they did, and at times the team monopolised over 60% of possession x high passing accuracies was because Lee Johnson did not want/need/desire them too - He (re) introduced players into the team who would only more encourage long passing, less accuracy, less possession in an effort to add verticality and tempo - A positive or negative depending on footballing preference.

Any side that has a Keeper who does that with goal kicks is not valuing possession particularly highly.

Going to be interesting seemingly with more legs to do the graft how the team sets out without Famara in it.

[Cowshed]

4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Well what I see is Frankie often looking to play it short from goal kicks, but simply isn't allowed to by the opposition. Maybe a tactic by them because they know how he's likely to do a bad long pass out of play if he can't pass short. 

On Reid and Paterson up front, there were games where it really did not work and we were desperately missing a physical presence. I don't think this is entirely down to just Reid and Pato not being big and strong. But also because the wide players were not getting beyond them enough. If we had maybe Odowda fit and another powerful fast wide man, then I think Pato and Reid would have been more effective. But most certainly it had stopped working.

Consistently what you can see from goal kicks is that there is no attempt for the CB's to split and FB's push up to create passing options and angles. The team is closing down versus opening out. The team was setting up with Bryan and Flint moving to the side of the pitch and he team going narrow in relation to that position. That shape can only be instruction from Mr Johnson.

On Reid and Paterson up front, there were games where it really did not work and we were desperately missing a physical presence … Which is an entirely differing point in regards to shape and approach without the football. 

2 hours ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Interesting and largely correct, I think.

I've been working on the assumption that the team carried on trying to play the way it did in December but with less success due to fatigue. You are quite right to point out that the personnel changed, particularly with the return of Diedhiou and that that had a significant effect on the style. That said, had the team remained as it was in December then we probably would have seen them fall away due to fatigue as they didn't have enough players who could play that way. Liverpool probably (though I can't say this with any great confidence) have more players in their squad who can play in the same way.

If all this is true, though, then that suggests that the way the team played during the most successful period of last season (November and December) was not the way that Lee Johnson intended them to play, and that when they were playing the way he wanted them to the performances and results got worse. There are several conclusions that could be drawn from that, not all of them terrible, but it's certainly odd.

 

Liverpool yes have more players in their squad who play that way defensively because it is their primary intent. It is a requisite of their forwards/midfield not only are they very good/great players they also have to incredible high fitness levels and athletic ability to shift around in units - Firmino, Mane and Salah were a aggressive pressing unit that made 100 appearances between them and Chamberlain supported that skill set. Fatigue? No if you want to high tempo and lungs it is bought, Liverpool yes have great wealth but that football is planned it is planned, it is a long term

It is odd, but the team was playing as Mr Johnson wanted them to for that period of time, it was obviously intentional at that point due to injury to a player Mr Johnson looks to be a key. When that key player became available Mr Johnson still believed his attributes befitted his place in the team and the football changed accordingly.

The methodology above is different. I have posted before that Liverpool have a balls out commitment to their football which has a huge mental and physical requirement to it. Lee Johnson did not have the same commitment to the best football City played last season he could have chose to support that football with recruitment, progress it … It was his choice not to because he had intentionally set up the squad originally not to play like that. It is understandable when broken down.