Obsession with goalkeepers distribution.

[BobBobSuperBob]

50 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Interesting final point @BobBobSuperBob - in the modern game it always amazes me to see keepers working on their own pre game and not involved in the possession stuff. Though I’m guessing it’s not necessarily the case during the week. 

I thought as a team we actually did well on Sat under pressure and largely maintained the belief in our ability to play to feet when pressed. I don’t think we hit as much long under pressure as we would have last season. 

I thought we did well first half , the centre halves went wide into full back positions a la Man City and the full backs pushed on and Marlon Pack was dropping in between the centre halves giving Mäenpää three short passing options (Baker Webster and Pack)

I was very surprised that Forest didn’t press , and if not going to full press , personally I would have pressed on Pack and Webster and let Baker have the problem of possession

They didn’t and Webster and particularly Pack took the ball at comfort and used it well to build our next possession / attack

This pleaded to immediately change after h/t and the early equaliser

Harder for me to see properly at that end of the pitch but it appears to me that they indeed pressed as a unit and Baker certainly , and not the only one was found out in possession a number of times and increasingly our distribution, I thought became longer and more ragged going longer with less accuracy creating a constant cycle of losing possession

It was clearly a plan (Albeit I found it a strange one that ) Korey when he came on was taking the Pack quarterback role , not a role he’s particularly suited for me , but clearly there was some thinking in trying to change something

I was pleased we hung onto a point but concerned how we buckled somewhat

Other sides will be pressing and testing our ethos as they did in the second half of last season

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I don't think any of us really know the answer.  I cannot remember how FF played when he was at Derby.  However, I have a feeling I have been frustrated with that aspect of his game since before Johnson came along. To me that suggests that it is something that FF does on his own rather than under strict instruction.  There was one game last season, possibly Brentford away, where I distinctly recall comparing him to the opposition goalie (presumably Bentley) and just feeling astonished at the difference in the speed of distribution. 

Did you notice Maenpaa distributing quickly from hands at all?

Trying to think EA

Not with any great confidence I have tbh

IIRC my impression was that he was quite alive to it ?.

 certainly recall him rolling one out very quickly 

[BobBobSuperBob]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The majority (70%) of a goal keepers game is played with the feet. Goal keepers touch the ball with their feet more than the centre forward does. Any team with a goal keeper who is not adept with his feet will always lack technical flexibility - Teams playing 3 at that back frequently have Keepers with high footballing ability - Hart v Pickford? Pickford all day long.  Every time a Keeper gives possession away that's a attack to defend and attack that is not being made. Many teams now make over 12000 successful passes in a season the Keeper has to be part of that - Man city make 20000+ and could not without Ederson or a similar Keeper . Keepers (the really good ones) now act as a pivot resetting possession and being an option. Possession is a way of not conceding and on and on and this will all go in the future.

Its not an obsession it is skill set that many coaches have wanted in Keepers for decades, and increased in necessity after the back pass rule altered totally how Keepers played technically, and teams tactically in 1992. England technically and tactically has been slower to catch up and traditionally looked at football as being 4-4-2 and long ball … Still does in some respects.

Good interesting post Cowshed

The only thing I’d throw in the mix , ( without promoting or advocating any particular playing ethos )

 

There are other ways to play of course

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

 

There are other ways to play of course

And having a flexible Keeper provides that opportunity. Pickford could play for anybody and be very very good.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And having a flexible Keeper provides that opportunity. Pickford could play for anybody and be very very good.

Cant argue with that

Problem is we don’t have 30 or The now quoted £70-80m knocking around !

Bit like saying Harry Kane could play for anybody and score goals !

 

But we don’t have that option and need to compromise somewhere or likely spend a lot of money , even at our appropriate level , to get what we want

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Trying to think EA

Not with any great confidence I have tbh

IIRC my impression was that he was quite alive to it ?.

 certainly recall him rolling one out very quickly 



No problem, I guess we'll learn over the next few games.  I'll hopefully be at QPR (provided it doesn't sell out by Monday) so will judge for myself then.

[phantom]

1 hour ago, Barney red said:

Really don't get the current obsession with the quality of a keepers distribution. Surely it is far more important they can keep the ball out of the bl***y net.

To put it simply it is part of the modern game, they almost are expected to play like the old fashioned sweeper did.

Why not be utilise an 11th person on the pitch rather than a cardboard cut out that just catches and saves?

[barneyrubble]

Not all goals come from possession football majority today come from fast break from defence with very few passes to travel length of pitch.

Would you rather have a keeper who kept clean sheets or who was good with his feet but let in goals?

No brainer!  

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

To put it simply it is part of the modern game, they almost are expected to play like the old fashioned sweeper did.

Why not be utilise an 11th person on the pitch rather than a cardboard cut out that just catches and saves?

The back pass rule as others have pointed out changed that

And the modern trend of possession and the high press changed it yet again , and even more significantly I’d suggest 

[handsofclay]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

On a serious note

Wasn’t that one of the best , if not best , rule changes , ever

 

Hard to believe that it wasn't until 1912 that the rule was brought in confining keepers to handling the ball only in their own penalty area. Prior to that, they could handle the ball anywhere in their own half! They weren't allowed to carry it but progressed up the field by bouncing it. Some actually did this but on the whole keepers didn't advance too far up field for fear that once they had distributed the ball possession for their side might be lost too quickly and the net be unguarded. The reason the rule was changed was because a couple of keepers, including Stoke's, were very adept at keeping possession of the ball until the half way line and then distributing it straight into the opposing penalty area. Lots of teams complained that the likes of Stoke had an unfair advantage.

Hard to believe that had we been able to see City in the top flight, 1906-1911, or in the cup final, 1909, conceivably our keeper, Clay, could have legitimately caught the ball near the centre spot and had a pot shot at goal, from hands! 

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Hard to believe that it wasn't until 1912 that the rule was brought in confining keepers to handling the ball only in their own penalty area. Prior to that, they could handle the ball anywhere in their own half! They weren't allowed to carry it but progressed up the field by bouncing it. Some actually did this but on the whole keepers didn't advance too far up field for fear that once they had distributed the ball possession for their side might be lost too quickly and the net be unguarded. The reason the rule was changed was because a couple of keepers, including Stoke's, were very adept at keeping possession of the ball until the half way line and then distributing it straight into the opposing penalty area. Lots of teams complained that the likes of Stoke had an unfair advantage.

Hard to believe that had we been able to see City in the top flight, 1906-1911, or in the cup final, 1909, conceivably our keeper, Clay, could have legitimately caught the ball near the centre spot and had a pot shot at goal, from hands! 

Well

Have to confess

I never knew that !

Thanks , every day n all that

[handsofclay]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Well

Have to confess

I never knew that !

Thanks , every day n all that

I know, one would assume such a rule went out along with the tape used for crossbars. I was gobsmacked when I learned of it.

[EmissionImpossible]

Rather than pinging to the halfway line surely it would be better to just play out from the back and keep possession. Granted it’s not always possible but the outfield players should be making angles and it’s something that can be replicated in training, drag one guy out of position and replace him with one of yours. Same goes for throw ins, it amazes me how often you see static players or only one or two options and everyone staying in their allotted position.

 

[Ivorguy]

Surely this is just one of those periodic changes in football playing style; when a player in a particular position on the pitch is expected to operate in a new and different manner, e.g. The old inside left, the old winger, and, more recently, the change in fullback play.  This is nothing new and is a key aspect of football through the decades.  1950s style of football almost seems like a different sport when viewed from today's perspective. Bring back the shoulder charge, I say; will never  forget big John scoring by shoulder charging the goalkeeper into his own net

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

the goal keeper shouldn't be playing crossfield 40 yard balls to feet, he's there to keep goals out of the net

Rightly or wrongly, that’s not how LJ sees it. He’s been clear that a keepers role is much more than that, and includes distribution. He’s by no means alone in that view. 

[JamesBCFC]

2 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

It was noticeable that Maenpaa wasn’t doing what Frankie does and aiming for the paint on the touch line.

Which suggests either a change of instruction or one of FF and NM not doing as instructed. In the interests of giving FF the benefit of the doubt, let’s say the former!

I'd say that the aiming for the touchline plan has largely gone with the departure of Flint, as he was the target 90% of the time that we did it.

[JamesBCFC]

40 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Hard to believe that it wasn't until 1912 that the rule was brought in confining keepers to handling the ball only in their own penalty area. Prior to that, they could handle the ball anywhere in their own half! They weren't allowed to carry it but progressed up the field by bouncing it. Some actually did this but on the whole keepers didn't advance too far up field for fear that once they had distributed the ball possession for their side might be lost too quickly and the net be unguarded. The reason the rule was changed was because a couple of keepers, including Stoke's, were very adept at keeping possession of the ball until the half way line and then distributing it straight into the opposing penalty area. Lots of teams complained that the likes of Stoke had an unfair advantage.

Hard to believe that had we been able to see City in the top flight, 1906-1911, or in the cup final, 1909, conceivably our keeper, Clay, could have legitimately caught the ball near the centre spot and had a pot shot at goal, from hands! 

So Stokes tactics haven't evolved much over the last hundred years!

[054123]

2 hours ago, Barney red said:

Really don't get the current obsession with the quality of a keepers distribution. Surely it is far more important they can keep the ball out of the bl***y net.

Shot stopping and the ability to command your box and organise your defence are what it is vital for a keeper.

If you can hit 40 yard crossfield balls  consistently you should of been a midfielder. As long as the keeper can clear the halfway line and throw a ball to a fullback surely that's good enough. 

At the end of the day if you don't concede you don't lose hence shot stopping and commanding box are paramount.Distribution is a bonus.

 

Don’t disagree, but having balls sail straight out of play is not great either and Should be wholly avoidable 

[BobBobSuperBob]

26 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Rather than pinging to the halfway line surely it would be better to just play out from the back and keep possession. Granted it’s not always possible but the outfield players should be making angles and it’s something that can be replicated in training, drag one guy out of position and replace him with one of yours. Same goes for throw ins, it amazes me how often you see static players or only one or two options and everyone staying in their allotted position.

 

Agree

I do think FF gets blamed a lot when there is a limited amount of options, help , and liveliness from others

[Undy English]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

the goal keeper shouldn't be playing crossfield 40 yard balls to feet, he's there to keep goals out of the net

Agree entirely, but it would be a lot nicer if he could - exact reason why Chelsea are about to part with £81 million. 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

On a serious note

Wasn’t that one of the best , if not best , rule changes , ever

 

I vote 3 points for a win as well, reduced the number of sterile matches where the away side just got ten men behind the ball. 

Today a team could go unbeaten for the whole season but only getting draws and seriously risk relegation.

[handsofclay]

30 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I vote 3 points for a win as well, reduced the number of sterile matches where the away side just got ten men behind the ball. 

Today a team could go unbeaten for the whole season but only getting draws and seriously risk relegation.

Definitely. In the two points for a win era a team could conceivably draw all their games and finish mid table. Now they'd be relegated. However, I do believe the 3 points for a win has led to a quicker turnaround in managers. I doubt Alan Dicks would've lasted long here as he built solid sides that ground out results (quite a few draws). Plus, football fans aren't as happy now as they were back in the 2 points for a win days as back then a draw would be, for the most part, not a bad result. Now it is just a bit better than a defeat. Indeed, conceivably a team could be beaten say just 3 times in 20 matches (with 2 wins and 15 draws in the other 17 games) and the manager get the sack as the team have dropped into the relegation zone. Whereas, back in the 2 points for a win era he would be a contender for manager of the month for 4 months on the bounce.

Essentially, supporters have increased their chance of being unhappy at the result by 33%, but have increased their chances of seeing attacking, entertaining football by a high percentage.

[BCFC Rich]

It makes sense to have a keeper who's distribution is good if you want to play out from the back. But the big advantage if you have a keeper with really good distribution, who can play as a sweeper keeper, is you open up formation options. You effectively gain some of the be if it's of having a back three without sacrificing from the strike force or midfield. It means you play a back 4 but full backs can be wing backs and CB's can bring the ball out. 

[BCFC_Dan]

4 hours ago, Barney red said:

Not all goals come from possession football majority today come from fast break from defence with very few passes to travel length of pitch.

Would you rather have a keeper who kept clean sheets or who was good with his feet but let in goals?

No brainer!  

Is that you, Charles Hughes?

I don't have any stats to hand but this is an area in which they can be misleading. It's probably fair to say that the number of sides maintaining possession for possession's sake has declined recently but the stats can deceive. A 30 pass move may end in a foul and a free kick, from which a cross into the box creates a goal. That goes down in the stats as one pass to create the goal, but that opportunity doesn't arrive without the preceding 30 to create the position.

The other main ways in which teams play (in my limited understanding) are the "low block" counter attack style, which probably doesn't need such a good ball-playing keeper. This is probably what you have in mind when you refer to a fast break out of defence, and the "high press", which relies on disrupting your opponent's transition from defence to attack. The goalkeeper being able to play football isn't essential for scoring goals here but it's pretty important if you don't want to concede against it.

[Prinny]

It's very easy to see a goalkeeper making a mistake as a fan. Look! A mistake! He's Awful! But we don't keep track of their distribution leading to goals, and poor distribution leading to conceding them. Management and coaching staffs do (or should). People who try to look at the game at that level will clash with the person who doesn't. Want to know which one you are? IF IN DOUBT, KICK IT OUT! Agree or disagree. Or is there more nuance?

It's about finding the goalkeeper who makes the best overall contribution. As we know we're looking at goalkeepers and we all want improvement in that area we focus on the flaws of the current number one and seek goalies who are better that way. Frankie's perceived "flaws" are size (please don't start...), kicking, and currently injuries. So we look as fans for the obvious pluses in those areas when we look to potential new signings.

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Cant argue with that

Problem is we don’t have 30 or The now quoted £70-80m knocking around !

Bit like saying Harry Kane could play for anybody and score goals !

 

But we don’t have that option and need to compromise somewhere or likely spend a lot of money , even at our appropriate level , to get what we want

Top level is unattainable. Key skills should not be v team need.

As you note Citys CB are dropping and splitting. The full backs push higher and wide. A typical out ball there is a clipped/chipped ball into those full backs. A ball of thirty - forty metres over players pressing the two CB's, which the FA expect Keeper coaches to coach to kids in their early teens, and easily achievable with practice by sixteen. Its a basic skill.

Compromise? Not being able to perform a basic key skill has to compromise any team tactically.

[Cowshed]

59 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Is that you, Charles Hughes?

I don't have any stats to hand but this is an area in which they can be misleading. It's probably fair to say that the number of sides maintaining possession for possession's sake has declined recently but the stats can deceive. A 30 pass move may end in a foul and a free kick, from which a cross into the box creates a goal. That goes down in the stats as one pass to create the goal, but that opportunity doesn't arrive without the preceding 30 to create the position.

The other main ways in which teams play (in my limited understanding) are the "low block" counter attack style, which probably doesn't need such a good ball-playing keeper. This is probably what you have in mind when you refer to a fast break out of defence, and the "high press", which relies on disrupting your opponent's transition from defence to attack. The goalkeeper being able to play football isn't essential for scoring goals here but it's pretty important if you don't want to concede against it.

What the poster is referring (incorrectly with respect) to are transitions, which occur all over the pitch. Burnleys low block will see the team transition to attack when the ball is won from deep. Liverpool and Man City also transition from differing forms of high press/counter pressing with Man Citys press being also reliant on their passing ability - They pass short, frequently with numbers around the ball and if they lose it they instantly outnumber the opposition and can transition in numbers again if the ball is regained. Mourinhos teams again transition differently. 

For a team like Man City the Keepers distribution is essential. V Bristol City they scored with a key pass from the Keeper Bravo into De Bruyne. No key pass no goal.
 

[Trueredsupporter]

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 07:56, Barney red said:

Really don't get the current obsession with the quality of a keepers distribution. Surely it is far more important they can keep the ball out of the bl***y net.

Shot stopping and the ability to command your box and organise your defence are what it is vital for a keeper.

If you can hit 40 yard crossfield balls  consistently you should of been a midfielder. As long as the keeper can clear the halfway line and throw a ball to a fullback surely that's good enough. 

At the end of the day if you don't concede you don't lose hence shot stopping and commanding box are paramount.Distribution is a bonus.

 

Seems pretty simple if your Keeper can keep the ball 200 300 400 more times a season the ball stays out of the net more often. 

[phantom]

Pep Guardiola may be at the vanguard of the movement to make goalkeepers pass the ball better - and particularly sideways at goal-kicks - but it's a trend that's been growing for some time in the Premier League.

Fifteen years ago keepers completed less than 43% of their passes, but in 2017-18 that had risen to 54%, with Guardiola's muse Ederson completing 85.3% last season, a figure that put him level with Manchester United midfielder Paul Pogba.

It's all a far cry from Middlesbrough's Brad Jones in 2005-06 - he found a team-mate with less than a quarter of his passes. Guardiola reportedly turned down the chance to play for a number of Premier League clubs in 2005-06, presumably philosophically sickened by the wayward passing culture that had infected goalkeeping up and down the country.

[Three Lions]

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 08:35, BobBobSuperBob said:

Bit like some of the old football games where you can set attributes and allocate skill points

You have 100 skill points to allocate between shot stopping , crosses and kicking / footballing ability

In an ideal world you’d want near 100 points in each

But in our markets we can shop in the more skill points we want in his kicking there’s likely to be a compromise elsewhere 

 

If you had the choice

Average shot stopping etc keeper with decent footballing ability 

or 

Very good keeper with poor distribution

 

Interesting one

 

Think I’m firmly nailed in  - first and foremost very good keeper attributes , with the belief that with some intense work the footballing part can be improved

 

How would your team play first? Can you have a Keeper learning on the job and a liability?? Team opens out Keepers gives ball away short its in the back of the net.