What are you expecting?

[old_eastender]

48 minutes ago, cityboy said:

Top 10 or bust

Well SL is on record as saying he wants, nay expects, an improvement, so that does indeed mean Top 10.

Me, despite the great performance against Swansea, overall this season I am still expecting disappointment with LJ in charge and a finish nearer bottom 3 than top 6... [queue abuse]

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, David Brent said:

I simply expect us to be competitive in every game we play. 

That goes without saying..............

[ChippenhamRed]

I want to see incremental growth towards the ultimate aim of promotion. We have no reason to expect fast track promotion given we were in L1 as recently as 2015, and continue to operate with a relatively modest budget.

That’s not to say we didn’t massively screw up last season - we did. We found ourselves effectively overachieving and should have done more to press home an unexpectedly high position.

BUT - our league positions have been L1 mid table, L1 Champions, Champ 18th, Champ 17th, Champ 11th and currently Champ 8th. I wonder how many clubs can claim five consecutive seasons of improvement? I guess not many. That suggests to me a club broadly getting things right. It’s a shame many can’t take a step back and look at it like that.

[Bar BS3]

28 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Well SL is on record as saying he wants, nay expects, an improvement, so that does indeed mean Top 10.

Me, despite the great performance against Swansea, overall this season I am still expecting disappointment with LJ in charge and a finish nearer bottom 3 than top 6... [queue abuse]

Why..? Based on what..?

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Why..? Based on what..?

I’d very surprised if you get a reply from OE, just like several others who make statements but fail to back them up.

[old_eastender]

29 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Why..? Based on what..?

 

24 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I’d very surprised if you get a reply from OE, just like several others who make statements but fail to back them up.

Based on taking a balanced view having seen all 6 games this season, not just getting carried away with one really good performance against Swansea. Add to that LJs history in taking clubs on long poor runs (record breaking number of consecutive defeats with us and Barnsley I believe) and I remain pessimistic (if you want to describe it as that).

Now follow-up the 8 points we have gained in the first 5 matches, with another 8 points from the next 5 and I may start to become more optimistic.

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

 

Based on taking a balanced view having seen all 6 games this season, not just getting carried away with one really good performance against Swansea. Add to that LJs history in taking clubs on long poor runs (record breaking number of consecutive defeats with us and Barnsley I believe) and I remain pessimistic (if you want to describe it as that).

Now follow-up the 8 points we have gained in the first 5 matches, with another 8 points from the next 5 and I may start to become more optimistic.

So.....you’re waiting for  LJ to repeat his history? 

Have you considered why those run of defeats happened? I can’t comment on Barnsley but at City he was assessing the players he’d inherited, looking for those who he felt could play in his style.

Since then he’s had several windows, brought in the players he wants and has built a decent squad. There’s absolutely no reason to expect City to go on another run of defeats but if they do then that would test SLs patience 

[Bar BS3]

12 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

 

Based on taking a balanced view having seen all 6 games this season, not just getting carried away with one really good performance against Swansea. Add to that LJs history in taking clubs on long poor runs (record breaking number of consecutive defeats with us and Barnsley I believe) and I remain pessimistic (if you want to describe it as that).

Now follow-up the 8 points we have gained in the first 5 matches, with another 8 points from the next 5 and I may start to become more optimistic.

No wonder you are reserved on your judgement, when you only recall the prolonged bad runs, yet completely ignore the prolonged spells of very good form that LJ has also provided in each season here and during his time at Barnsley. 

Why do you choose to ignore those..? 

By your rational, why would another 8 points from the next 5 games begin to convince you, when we are undoubtedly headed for another prolonged bad spell..? Infact, what is the point is bothering to win any games at all, when some people will never move on from a couple of bad periods, despite there having also been very good ones..? 

[hoxton casual]

12 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Why can't people just enjoy the journey of trying to get to the prem. Fans must be completely deluded if they think we should be doing any better than we are. The competition is huge in this league.

I love the walk to the pub, but i also like getting there..

[TonyTonyTony]

Here we go again...

 

[Bar BS3]

19 minutes ago, hoxton casual said:

I love the walk to the pub, but i also like getting there..

How do you know, when they’ve never let you in before..? 

The decor might nice but what if the beer just gives you a headache and you can never get a seat..?

[jimmyb]

For me I suppose when we got promoted last time the question was what do we want to achieve over the next 5 years?

I genuinely don’t think promotion to to the PL would have been top of the list.

More realistically the aim would be to establish ourselves as a competitive sustainable championship club.

We’re in the fourth of those five years now and we are I think well on the way to achieving that. We’ve had two unspectacular seasons where survival has ended up being the objective.

We’ve had one overall season where we were bothering the top half of the table instead of the bottom and a good cup run that raised the profile of the club immeasurably.

This season has to now build on this and see us keep ourselves in the top half of the division. The division can be so distorted by parachute payments now that it is difficult - you have to make a lot of progress every year just to stand still - but keeping our house in order FFP will I believe help balance that out over the long term.

I personally think we have the squad to achieve top half, I’m not expecting a serious play off challenge but I don’t think we’ll be in any trouble either.

In the context of a long term plan that’s a more than adequate season.

Off the pitch the sustainable aspect is moving forward, we have seen fruit of bringing through players to sell, for all the anger (some of it very justified) we have over 15k season ticket holders which almost guarantees 20k a week on the gate - which surely must give us our highest average for decades.

The stadium redevelopment is completed and has been largely successful, this will generate revenue and help move us both keep our place and move forward,.

If come the end next season we’ve achieved a couple of top half finishes then overall this five years will have been successful, and I think achieved in the right way. I love the club and I don’t want us back in gas land because we’ve busted ourselves chasing the dream.

But the question then becomes what’s the plan for the next 5 years? 

If we’ve achieved the above that becomes a much more difficult question...

 

[hoxton casual]

27 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

How do you know, when they’ve never let you in before..? 

The decor might nice but what if the beer just gives you a headache and you can never get a seat..?

You are right. I'll probably hate the Prem. Loud music awful fizzy beer and rude staff. Lets stay where we are!

[Mr Popodopolous]

@hoxton casual

I'm going to go through each club on that list and why they differ substantially.

1) Bournemouth excellent under Howe but also took the piss and flouted FFP to an unbelievable degrees. Sanctions at this time were limited to a fine or embargo- totally different landscape. Went up at the right time to say the least!

2) Huddersfield? Solid financial position PLUS Wagner used his management style and German connections to solid effect. Add in momentum and it can happen. Different to Bournemouth.

3) Burnley? Just hit a crest of a wave in 2009 plus good management and careful investment. The subsequent times Dyche and the parachute payments of course played a key role. Different to the 2 above.

4) Watford. Went down a European route. Quite literally in the owners case- linkups through multiple ownership at the time with Udinese and to a lesser extent, Granada. Unique of all the models to date.

5) Fulham? Where to start! Al Fayed was a man with big money and ambitions to match. Got in big names, first UK and then European. Tigana hired which along with cash and location helped with players and the 2 fed off each other. Their return last season? Painful adjustment and hitting buffers before working way back up- expenditure but also sales- tiki taka too. Again a fairly unique model of all those listed. Had the 4 years of parachute payments too.

5) Brighton? Poyet helped kick off their renaissance. Moving to their new ground was the transformative effect- went through a number of phases before Hughton finished the job- in terms of Championship infrastructure 3-4 years ahead of us, overall PL will have accelerated that now as well. The most organic model and perhaps the one we are closest aligned to- also made big losses top but right up to the limit.

6) Cardiff. Were quite big spending for a while PLUS had the new ground and some new infrastructure in place from 2009. This boosted their revenue generation facilities and appeal, they went up in 2012/13 and were fairly long established in Championship- FFP rules also laxer then- not too easy to compare.

7) Swansea. Went their own way- starting with Liberty Stadium move in 2005 was it. Better facilities, more revenue- combine clever recruitment of players and a continuity in philosophy regardless of coach- from Jackett in mid 2000's, Martinez did different in a big way, via Sousa who helped tactically and defensively while Rodgers finished the job. Perhaps some similarities?

So yeah hoxton, those models are all terribly disparate- some fairly creative. The point is, there is no magic formula, none at all.

[hoxton casual]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@hoxton casual

I'm going to go through each club on that list and why they differ substantially.

1) Bournemouth excellent under Howe but also took the piss and flouted FFP to an unbelievable degrees. Sanctions at this time were limited to a fine or embargo- totally different landscape. Went up at the right time to say the least!

2) Huddersfield? Solid financial position PLUS Wagner used his management style and German connections to solid effect. Add in momentum and it can happen. Different to Bournemouth.

3) Burnley? Just hit a crest of a wave in 2009 plus good management and careful investment. The subsequent times Dyche and the parachute payments of course played a key role. Different to the 2 above.

4) Watford. Went down a European route. Quite literally in the owners case- linkups through multiple ownership at the time with Udinese and to a lesser extent, Granada. Unique of all the models to date.

5) Fulham? Where to start! Al Fayed was a man with big money and ambitions to match. Got in big names, first UK and then European. Tigana hired which along with cash and location helped with players and the 2 fed off each other. Their return last season? Painful adjustment and hitting buffers before working way back up- expenditure but also sales- tiki taka too. Again a fairly unique model of all those listed. Had the 4 years of parachute payments too.

5) Brighton? Poyet helped kick off their renaissance. Moving to their new ground was the transformative effect- went through a number of phases before Hughton finished the job- in terms of Championship infrastructure 3-4 years ahead of us, overall PL will have accelerated that now as well. The most organic model and perhaps the one we are closest aligned to- also made big losses top but right up to the limit.

6) Cardiff. Were quite big spending for a while PLUS had the new ground and some new infrastructure in place from 2009. This boosted their revenue generation facilities and appeal, they went up in 2012/13 and were fairly long established in Championship- FFP rules also laxer then- not too easy to compare.

7) Swansea. Went their own way- starting with Liberty Stadium move in 2005 was it. Better facilities, more revenue- combine clever recruitment of players and a continuity in philosophy regardless of coach- from Jackett in mid 2000's, Martinez did different in a big way, via Sousa who helped tactically and defensively while Rodgers finished the job. Perhaps some similarities?

So yeah hoxton, those models are all terribly disparate- some fairly creative. The point is, there is no magic formula, none at all.

Thanks Mr P. Factors that I pull out of your analysis.

Good football managent both recruitment and coaching.

New ground new revenue schemes.

Investment by owner over or up to the FFP limit - depending on when they did it

Parachute payments.

Apart from the last we have the ability to recreate all of these. Which in your view are the ranking by contribution to their success?

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

No wonder you are reserved on your judgement, when you only recall the prolonged bad runs, yet completely ignore the prolonged spells of very good form that LJ has also provided in each season here and during his time at Barnsley. 

Why do you choose to ignore those..? 

By your rational, why would another 8 points from the next 5 games begin to convince you, when we are undoubtedly headed for another prolonged bad spell..? Infact, what is the point is bothering to win any games at all, when some people will never move on from a couple of bad periods, despite there having also been very good ones..? 

His thinking is probably that another 8 points from the next 5 games only brings us closer to the next poor run! 

[Bar BS3]

16 minutes ago, downendcity said:

His thinking is probably that another 8 points from the next 5 games only brings us closer to the next poor run! 

Every win takes almost every team on the planet closer to their next bad run..!

LJ’s challenge this season is to stop that/those bad runs lasting as long as they have done in previous seasons. 

Hopefully in a couple of years time, some posters will only be able to harp back to the bad run of 2018, or the record breaking 2017 run of results, rather than anything more recent. They still will though, of course..! 

[BCFC Rich]

3 hours ago, old_eastender said:

 

Based on taking a balanced view having seen all 6 games this season, not just getting carried away with one really good performance against Swansea. Add to that LJs history in taking clubs on long poor runs (record breaking number of consecutive defeats with us and Barnsley I believe) and I remain pessimistic (if you want to describe it as that).

Now follow-up the 8 points we have gained in the first 5 matches, with another 8 points from the next 5 and I may start to become more optimistic.

Thanks for a sensible response. I'd say that's fair, it's understandable to have doubts about LJ and waiting 10 games into the season is a sensible ammount of time to wait before starting to draw realistic conclusions and expectations. 

[winterbournered]

For me, anything around 10th with some unexpected wins and some unexpected losses. 

That said if we can find some real consistency and not suffer injuries in key areas then hopefully a stab at the play-offs could materialise. 

[ChippenhamRed]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

So.....you’re waiting for  LJ to repeat his history? 

Have you considered why those run of defeats happened? I can’t comment on Barnsley but at City he was assessing the players he’d inherited, looking for those who he felt could play in his style.

Since then he’s had several windows, brought in the players he wants and has built a decent squad. There’s absolutely no reason to expect City to go on another run of defeats but if they do then that would test SLs patience 

There’s been more than one bad run. Pretty sure “assessing the players he inherited” isn’t an excuse for last season’s capitulation.

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

There’s been more than one bad run. Pretty sure “assessing the players he inherited” isn’t an excuse for last season’s capitulation.

So when was the another bad run?  

If he wasn’t assessing the players during the poor what was the cause then? 

Id love to know your theory......

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

So when was the another bad run?  

October 2016 to March 2017.....

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

October 2016 to March 2017.....

Not a losing bad run......it was a run of poor form partly due to the crippling injury list and of course the cup run,.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not a losing bad run......it was a run of poor form partly due to the crippling injury list and of course the cup run,.

No, you’re confused, October 2016 to March 2017 was the season before the cup run and the injuries....the cup run was last season, 2017/2018.... from mid October 2016 to March 2017 we won 3 times in 24 games.....

[steviestevieneville]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not a losing bad run......it was a run of poor form partly due to the crippling injury list and of course the cup run,.

He’s on about the season before if you look at the dates properly, Uber gas. 

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

No, you’re confused, October 2016 to March 2017 was the season before the cup run and the injuries....the cup run was last season, 2017/2018.... from mid October 2016 to March 2017 we won 3 times in 24 games.....

Bloody hell..............I can only remember the run of consequetive losses not long after LJ had taken over........you mean there was one before that?

[BS4 on Tour...]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Bloody hell..............I can only remember the run of consequetive losses not long after LJ had taken over........you mean there was one before that?

But you initially replied as though I was talking about last season.....I wasn’t, 2016/2017 included our record breaking ‘most consecutive defeats in our history’ type run....but 3 wins from mid October 2016 to March 2017 is still a pathetic stain on our recent history in my opinion....but the HCs overlook such calamities.....

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

But you replied as though I was talking about last season.....I wasn’t, 2016/2017 included our record breaking ‘most consecutive defeats in our history’ type run....but 3 wins from mid October 2016 to March 2017 is still a pathetic stain on our recent history in my opinion....but the HCs overlook such calamities.....

Hang on..........the losing run just after LJ had taken over was one I remember. Judging by StevieNeville and BobbobSuperBob response there were two..........

I don’t consider the poor form after Xmas last season to be that disastrous but it did coincide with the cup run and of course the crippling injuries.

[BS4 on Tour...]

9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Hang on..........the losing run just after LJ had taken over was one I remember. Judging by StevieNeville and BobbobSuperBob response there were two..........

I don’t consider the poor form after Xmas last season to be that disastrous but it did coincide with the cup run and of course the crippling injuries.

There have been two poor runs under LJ - they can’t be ignored  - Oct 2016 to March 2017 - three wins.....then going from 2nd place in Jan 2018 to 11th place by the end of the season.....after a handful of games this season we are doing averagely well, we haven’t won at home but we haven’t lost away! How bizarre is that?! 

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

There have been two poor runs under LJ - they can’t be ignored  - Oct 2016 to March 2017 - three wins.....then going from 2nd place in Jan 2018 to 11th place by the end of the season.....after a handful of games this season we are doing averagely well, we haven’t won at home but we haven’t lost away! How bizarre is that?! 

As I said - I can only remember one desperate run of defeats under LJ, not long after he took over.

Poor form is not the same thing especially when injuries/cup run play a significant factor.