Bolton Finances (Merged)

[Taz]

Could he end up going back to FGR though? If they're having financial troubles, they may have to send him back. Especially as they won't be able to sign him permanently....

Would he still be eligible to play for his parent club?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Depends whether you measure it by FFP or standard finances. They also released a lot of players in summer, though yeah O'Neil wouldn't have come cheap and am surprised they made some of the signings they did. In FFP terms over 3 years though, they are pretty compliant IMO.

Most of their issues now come from historic mismanagement IMO, as opposed to their current management.

There is often a cost implication releasing players and certainly a huge cost implication in signing players, especially given that they adopted a strategy of signing a lot of experienced players mainly aged 25 to over 35 years old.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

There is often a cost implication releasing players and certainly a huge cost implication in signing players, especially given that they adopted a strategy of signing a lot of experienced players mainly aged 25 to over 35 years old.

By 'released' I rather assumed it was referring to end of contract. Contract expired, let go- no profit on players, but at the same time reduced wages, and perhaps amortisation.

Over 3 years, doubt they have breached FFP but they certainly have financial issues- the 2 aren't the same necessarily.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

44 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

By 'released' I rather assumed it was referring to end of contract. Contract expired, let go- no profit on players, but at the same time reduced wages, and perhaps amortisation.

Over 3 years, doubt they have breached FFP but they certainly have financial issues- the 2 aren't the same necessarily.

Released players often have loyalty clauses or have if released early paid up contracts.

I never mentioned FFP, I just happen to believe that they have obviously and not for the first time embarked on a course of action that they clearly cannot afford and for it to unravel so early into the season sort of clarifies that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Released players often have loyalty clauses or have if released early paid up contracts.

I never mentioned FFP, I just happen to believe that they have obviously and not for the first time embarked on a course of action that they clearly cannot afford and for it to unravel so early into the season sort of clarifies that.

All Championship clubs pretty much make losses- so Bolton are far from alone in that. Hell, the report even suggests they may have made a small profit last season owing to sale of Madine.

They should have run a tighter ship I would agree- but the figures in terms of reduced wage bill, %, as turnover etc all speak for themselves. They aren't a Birmingham, Villa or Sheff Wed throwing money around stupidly in last 2-3 seasons- far from it.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

57 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

All Championship clubs pretty much make losses- so Bolton are far from alone in that. Hell, the report even suggests they may have made a small profit last season owing to sale of Madine.

They should have run a tighter ship I would agree- but the figures in terms of reduced wage bill, %, as turnover etc all speak for themselves. They aren't a Birmingham, Villa or Sheff Wed throwing money around stupidly in last 2-3 seasons- far from it.

But have still have a debt of 27 mil and have faced admitting,istartion proceedings twice already this season, a real business model I would say.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

But have still have a debt of 27 mil and have faced admitting,istartion proceedings twice already this season, a real business model I would say.

Debt in itself isn't necessarily the issue, ability to service it is IMO.

If they had put the Madine cash to paying off this debt, chances are they wouldn't be in this position now. Now it's 2016/17 but a debt of £27m is nothing in modern football at this level. I know it's more complex and a fair number of sides will have this debt due to their owners in event of a sale rather than banks or other external funding sources but that table...

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Debt in itself isn't necessarily the issue, ability to service it is IMO.

If they had put the Madine cash to paying off this debt, chances are they wouldn't be in this position now. Now it's 2016/17 but a debt of £27m is nothing in modern football at this level.

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%40swissramble debt championship&src=typd

If first part of the highlighted portion falls into the "if my granny had balls" category and being threatened with a 2 winding up orders since the start of the season is something.

[REDOXO]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One interesting bit I noted from that, was that their hotel lost £10k per week- part of Burnden Leisure as was I believe, unsure what it's called now.

The line 'Bolton’s situation not helped by the hotel losing £10,000 a week too, shows that diversification not always the solution for a club'

They would have been better off making it an allotment. 

An interesting thought about diversification. Perhaps the should have bought Rugby, basketball, futsol ladies footy and a motor racing driver. Would have increased revs and beer sales tv coverage etc. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

If first part of the highlighted portion falls into the "if my granny had balls" category and being threatened with a 2 winding up orders since the start of the season is something.

Villa were close to administration this summer- difference was they got bought out.

Most of this division is a shitshow financially- every club pretty much runs at a loss, it's just Bolton's huge historic issues plus lack of a buyer compounded it. They could have pushed the wage bill up of course, but when they were in embargo type conditions it was unlikely. Saw a graph that showed the total losses for Championship online in recent years. Talk they could even avoid admin now- but if they get that good fortune, they should take advantage of it and do everything they can to reduce costs. 

Where would we be without Lansdown, I sometimes wonder? Our debt is mainly owed to him I believe in so far as it's owed to anyone at all.

[wendyredredrobin]

17 hours ago, Taz said:

Memory may be playing tricks on me, but didn't they leave it very late the last time they were close to being in serious trouble?

Seems that unless you can get a big invester to bail you out, you're just delaying the inevitable, unless of course you strike lucky and get to the Prem shortly afterwards.

I don't think this will be the last club we hear about with regards to administration....

Haha, you may not have to look too far away from home for the next one

[22A]

18 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

-12 mate and a 2 year embargo, already a thread fella. 

12 point deduction this early in the season could cause many fans to lose heart and stop attending thus reducing income even further.

What does a 2 year transfer embargo mean? Not allowed to buy presumably, but are they allowed to sell? presumably if a player is out of contract and is a free agent, he would be permitted to join?

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It goes like this in terms of FGR and potential loan.

The loan market is as follows:

• Dry loan- that's a loan for a given period with an option of recall. No option to buy, just a straight loan and the host club can recall.
• Dry loan with no option of recall- as above but no option of recall. No option to buy, just a straight loan but the host club cannot recall
• Loan with option to buy- Loan, then the club who has the player on loan has the choice to buy or not. The choice is with the club, so the club who loans out can have no realistic expectation or budgeting for a purchase.
• Loan with obligation to buy- the club who loans the player is contractually obligated to buy. The problem then, short of the purchasing club facing bankruptcy, falls to the club who acquired the player on loan.

The last scenario is one in which Forest Green or indeed Bolton need to be worried, the others nothing ventured, nothing gained contractually speaking.

Good summary Mr P.  I suspect it is future cashflows that is causing some of the issues, Doidge’s future transfer may be part of that concern.  If it is bullet 4, then you’d expect the Administrator (if they go into administration) would be putting him straight on the transfer list, however this would be complicated by the fact that Doidge has been registered for two clubs already this season.

[Davefevs]

Most sites inc Transfermarkt, seem to infer that the it is an agreed transfer, I.e. no backing out now.  Imagine Doidge got injured and just sent him back. You’d like to think FGR won’t get shafted by this.

 

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, 22A said:

12 point deduction this early in the season could cause many fans to lose heart and stop attending thus reducing income even further.

What does a 2 year transfer embargo mean? Not allowed to buy presumably, but are they allowed to sell? presumably if a player is out of contract and is a free agent, he would be permitted to join?

I would imagine it's 'no buy' but anything raised by sales would go to the administrator rather than the football club. I understand an embargo as 'nobody in' which would mean no free signings either (they can mean higher wages I guess) but stand to be corrected. Essentially, everything has to go to / through the administrator who's role is to sustain the financially stricken club / business while ensuring a suitable deal for any creditors. I can't see any signing, albeit frees, being allowed TBH.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

I would imagine it's 'no buy' but anything raised by sales would go to the administrator rather than the football club. I understand an embargo as 'nobody in' which would mean no free signings either (they can mean higher wages I guess) but stand to be corrected. Essentially, everything has to go to / through the administrator who's role is to sustain the financially stricken club / business while ensuring a suitable deal for any creditors. I can't see any signing, albeit frees, being allowed TBH.

There are exceptions based on squad size and / or money raised from sales, a percentage can be re-used.

[Ska Junkie]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There are exceptions based on squad size and / or money raised from sales, a percentage can be re-used.

Thanks Dave, as I said it was just my understanding of administration and I certainly didn't know if it was correct.

[City Ben]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Most sites inc Transfermarkt, seem to infer that the it is an agreed transfer, I.e. no backing out now.  Imagine Doidge got injured and just sent him back. You’d like to think FGR won’t get shafted by this.

 

If FGR have smart lawyers I might have thought they’d include a clause stating that Bolton filing for admin nullifies the purchase (and even the lob, perhaps?). Otherwise you could have a farcical situation whereby FGR have to allow the transfer, are then owed the £2m (or part/ most of it), and have to wait for the administration to unwind so that they can get paid. As a club, you’d never want to allow that to happen. 

Bottom line FGR probably weren’t extending Bolton credit anyway. Hopefully they’ll get their boy back ASAP. 

[McNasty Filth]

22 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Didn't they sell their training ground to Wigan last year? It seems to be a case of a bit of both Mr P. The owner wants to sell and invest as little as possible to cover debts / existing contracts and seems happy to sell whatever he can to avoid putting any £££ in.

Their historical debt was enormous IIRC. 

Personally, when their owner at the time wanted to 'pull up the bridge between the EPL and the EFL' a few years ago, I lost any respect for Bolton. A case of 'we're alright, stuff you'. 

Yep, were exactly my thoughts. Don't like to speak ill of the dead and gone, but he was an unsavoury piece of work. Any person or persons that would even dare bring up that topic deserves to be hounded out of football, end of!

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, jaydee=inspiration said:

Yep, were exactly my thoughts. Don't like to speak ill of the dead and gone, but he was an unsavoury piece of work. Any person or persons that would even dare bring up that topic deserves to be hounded out of football, end of!

Quite he was happy to say no relegation until they got relegated.  Much like Wigan and Blackburn once they fell out of the premier league the crowds simply were not big enough to sustain the financial turnover they had as the casual fan would go to watch premier league football elsewhere nearby. 

[slartibartfast]

Gone bust yet ?

[Always Believesham]

Some have cited Portsmouth as an example Bolton should have been aware of - I wonder if Gartside had seen what had happened in the league and that is what forced the agenda one post described as pulling the drawbridge up. A couple of posts have mentioned Bournemouth - I wondered if they were talking about 2009 when 4 clubs in league two were penalised, along with Stockport in league one for going into administration.

11v11 says of Bournemouth 

Quote

AFC Bournemouth were subjected to a 17-point Sporting Sanction by the Football League on 7 August 2008 due to being unable to satisfy the conditions of the League's insolvency policy for exiting administration.

The same is said of Rotherham; Darlington received a 10 point penalty for entering administration and Luton got their wopping great deduction for paying agents' fees via third party (10 points) and a further 20 points for failing to satisfy insolvency rules. I guess that means they continued to try and operate despite being their holding company being insolvent (buying players when they still owed outstanding payments they had been ordered to pay to other creditors).

Bournemouth and Luton had entered administration in 2008 (then in League One) Leeds were also penalised 15 points (IIRC that was because they waited until after their fate was sealed to enter administration - something Luton and Southampton had done in the Championship)

Portsmouth were only deducted 9 points - as it happened they would have still finished bottom, but I wonder if there is a basis for deducting fewer points in the premiership. I think the 9 points condemned them to relegation at the time but am unsure.

[Davefevs]

And Eddie Davies has passed away...RIP.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/45490867?__twitter_impression=true

[pillred]

simple question, have Bolton been docked any points? I cant see anything about that happening.

[JasonM88]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Most sites inc Transfermarkt, seem to infer that the it is an agreed transfer, I.e. no backing out now.  Imagine Doidge got injured and just sent him back. You’d like to think FGR won’t get shafted by this.

 

On the other hand, it could work out very well for them. Doidge could be successful for Bolton, but they may have to pull out of the deal. In which case FGR have a championship proven striker, worth over 2 million on their books. 

[JamesBCFC]

7 hours ago, solihull cider red said:

Some have cited Portsmouth as an example Bolton should have been aware of - I wonder if Gartside had seen what had happened in the league and that is what forced the agenda one post described as pulling the drawbridge up. A couple of posts have mentioned Bournemouth - I wondered if they were talking about 2009 when 4 clubs in league two were penalised, along with Stockport in league one for going into administration.

11v11 says of Bournemouth 

The same is said of Rotherham; Darlington received a 10 point penalty for entering administration and Luton got their wopping great deduction for paying agents' fees via third party (10 points) and a further 20 points for failing to satisfy insolvency rules. I guess that means they continued to try and operate despite being their holding company being insolvent (buying players when they still owed outstanding payments they had been ordered to pay to other creditors).

Bournemouth and Luton had entered administration in 2008 (then in League One) Leeds were also penalised 15 points (IIRC that was because they waited until after their fate was sealed to enter administration - something Luton and Southampton had done in the Championship)

Portsmouth were only deducted 9 points - as it happened they would have still finished bottom, but I wonder if there is a basis for deducting fewer points in the premiership. I think the 9 points condemned them to relegation at the time but am unsure.

Quite possible

8 fewer games in the Premier League, so 24 less points available.

Thus each point deducted has a greater effect.

[Port Said Red]

8 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Gone bust yet ?

 

5 hours ago, pillred said:

simple question, have Bolton been docked any points? I cant see anything about that happening.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/16833684.latest-updates-as-bolton-wanderers-seek-to-avoid-administration/

It would seem not. It looks like a local businessman has stepped in to top up the loan repayment. I wondered if that would need to happen, it will depend on whether the EFL want to punish them for missing the deadline, I would have thought a suspended sentence would be more likely.

[slartibartfast]

They're saved..................what a ******* surprise !

[havanatopia]

Looking at the sum Anderson has apparently just agreed with BluMarble, £4m along with Interest, you have to think this is just a stay of execution for them; internally speaking. The anount is a drop in the ocean to their monthly commitments. For their sake i sincerely hope they have their books balanced and in order or they will continue to be plagued by cash flow issues.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Their total deficit apparently 13 million for this season- that's the financing gap. That was before the 4 million payment.

They should take it as a golden opportunity to do all they can to steady the ship financially- when you get a late reprieve you have to capitalise.

I would if I was them- also knowing 11 pts from 6 games gives a passable crack at survival.