Pack....deserving his own thread

[Lee0]

On 22/09/2018 at 09:25, BTRFTG said:

Pack had a very poor outing last night but that in no way is deserving of the utter ridiculousness of this post.

He's certainly not deserving of the sycophantic drivel your reply spouts

He IS the best passer at the club courtesy of the fact he's the ONLY creative passer we have at the club.  

Yeah ? If he's the best passer we really are in trouble, unless passing to the advertising boards becomes a thing.

As for stopping us going forward, slowing play down and giving the ball away.... For the latter at least there's an inherent risk when trying to be creative, so what's Hunt's, Brownhill's, Watkins's, Paterson's ( I could go on) excuse? Slowing play down, that's a WeeLee trademark they all do it, angles, triangles and inches. Great in the coaching manuals, crap if you've no midfield creativity or end product. So that leaves stopping us going forward. As per the game against Middlesbrough, guilty. They knew and quickly ensured they went man for man on him ( as any team who've done their homework should against us) and our response, oh yeah, we don't have one as we've nobody else who can pick a pass.

Because other players had a poor game too (which they did) does not mean our 'best passer' and captain becomes immune from criticism. He wasn't man marked against boro, they were happy for him to have the ball, they just marked everybody else as nothing imaginative was going to come from the boot of MP.

Early days I was quite critical of his abilities but he's worked at his game and he's developed into a very useful unit. He's absolutely no pace (not something one can do much about,) but if he did he wouldn't be playing for us.

Ipswich must be gutted that they missed out.

CoD ended up in the middle because WeeLee's deluded enough to think we're wholly interchangable. That's why we pretty much only sign wingers yet ended up with Diggery playing wide most of last night. You have an opinion though most sensible folks would rather see CoD bombing down the wing crossing to the tall bloke in the box.

Deluded or not, when COD played through the middle we went forward with purpose, not saying I prefer COD there, but that's a fact.

I, too, wonder why Walsh bothers to turn up as on his previous showings he'd struggle to make Stockwood's stiffs.

He's still a boy and a bit lightweight, I believe it'll come from him in time.

And finally the pedant. It's incorrect to postulate what it would have been like playing with 10 men. We did. WeeLee picked Paterson.

Your love of MP is clearly beaten into 2nd place by your dislike of WEELEE

 

 

[BCFC11]

On 22/09/2018 at 08:00, Lee0 said:

Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

Absolute rubbish post, yes he had a bad game who didn’t?

Take MP out of our side and we’d simply fall apart, a lot of his work goes unoticed one of the most underrated players in the League let alone at Bristol City.

[Lee0]

On 22/09/2018 at 09:29, MarcusX said:

1 bad game and he gets this in a thread? He’s definitely had more MOM performances than ones like last night.

have you forgotten the night he had 100+ million of Mancunian midfield in his pocket?

everyone has a bad game from time to time. Everyone was poor last night and when the movement etc isn’t there then as a central midfielder you’re going to stick out if you don’t have the options to pass to.

No, I've not forgotten, but that's 10 months ago, fresh in my mind is the night 38p of Wigan midfield had him is theirs.

Its not time to time, at best/worst he has 1 good game in 4 (that's this season)

[Lee0]

3 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

Absolute rubbish post, yes he had a bad game who didn’t?

Take MP out of our side and we’d simply fall apart, a lot of his work goes unoticed one of the most underrated players in the League let alone at Bristol City.

You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wring it is.

[Lee0]

On 22/09/2018 at 11:42, Cowshed said:

Your post is a little uneven.

What is the role of a defensive holding midfielder?

If you consider it to be part supportive, resetting possession, providing an option to retain possession the role has to frequently slow the game down. 

According to squawka and stats bomb 68% of Marlon Packs passes go forward and 80% hit their target, it is not Micheal Carrick but its not bad. 

2 from 10 to the opposition or out of play

Forward 6 inches and 8 yards sideways to a team mate that is then put in a corner with nowhere to go.

[Lee0]

On 22/09/2018 at 17:15, Leveller said:

It continues to amaze me that a player or team gets flayed like this after a couple of bad results, despite the previous four wins. Can’t people get a grip?

I don't disagree with this.

I'll still be there next game cheering on the whole team and manager, wanting MP to have the game of his life, clapping them off the pitch, never booing.

I reserve the right to come on here and vent when our best passer and captain puts in shoddy display after shoddy display 

 

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

On 22/09/2018 at 09:38, Robbored said:

LJ and his assistants had obviously been working with the players on game plan but as others have said none of them played well and were unable to implement said game plan effectively.

Thats why he said post match that he was ‘embarrassed and frustrated’ with the performance.

As in any workplace if a manager shows and instructs his staff how to overcome a particular problem but the staff then fail to deliver, who is at fault?    

It is very simple and should have been very simple for the past nearly 3 years, if your staff fail to deliver, ignore or are incapable of carrying out the instructions as given, you find somebody who can, it is not rocket science and Pack and Brownhill seem to have been guilty of all 3 of those scenarios in the past 2 games and LJ has pretty much said as much.

Luckily Friday nights game is against a team where the built in excuse is already in place (did you expect anything out of that game?) and then there is Rotherham away where another Wiganesque performance will end in defeat and then Sheffield Wednesday home who beat the unbeatable Villa, Brentford away (another did you expect anything from that game?) and Hull and Stoke at home bearing in mind their recent premiership status and in Stoke's case spending spree probably 2 more games that fall into the same category, but only if we lose of course.

[BCFC11]

1 hour ago, Lee0 said:

You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wring it is.

Struggled massively on the occasions he didn’t start last season, would be the same outcome if LJ drops him now.

[Leveller]

12 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Nonsense

Looking for consistency Leveller , and a sign of progress , and certainly effort and desire , Rather than the constant highs and dips in games and from week to week 

When we have a wobble in games or through games it’s extreme and our performance disintegrates for a period at least - that’s not good , but a lack of application , not tracking back , pulling out of challenges , hiding is unacceptable whoever the players and manager

Surely not that difficult to understand is it

 

If you are ok to accept  a disgraceful lack of application and desire in any game bigger fool you

 

You found  Friday night acceptable did you ?

How about commenting on what was turned out .........

Half decent sides may have off days , but they don’t turn out feeble lack of desire performances , a constant Achilles  throughout his tenure 

Look at peoples  reaction to losing to and shipping four at WBA and a 1-0 defeat at Wigan and work out why the difference 

I didn’t see the Wigan game, but clearly from the reactions it wasn’t good, despite being close enough for the Wigan manager to think a draw would have been fair.

I'm only reacting to those who are now judging the whole season and our prospects by that one performance, when we have actually still won four of the last six. It happens all the time - including over optimistic overreactions when we get a few wins. I started the season hoping for an improved top half finish, and I still think we’ll probably end up in the second quarter (ie 7th-12th) based on the squad and the record to date. Our defeats haven’t all been awful, nor have our wins all been convincing, but that’s par for the course. I never know what level of performance to expect next, but unlike some I don’t think a home defeat to an underachieving Villa is now inevitable.

It may be, if we play like we did against Wigan, but we are never consistent! 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Lee0 said:

I don't disagree with this.

I'll still be there next game cheering on the whole team and manager, wanting MP to have the game of his life, clapping them off the pitch, never booing.

I reserve the right to come on here and vent when our best passer and captain puts in shoddy display after shoddy display 

 

 

What about the good games so far this season?  It’s not like he’s been poor every game is it....or do you think he has been?

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, Leveller said:

I didn’t see the Wigan game, but clearly from the reactions it wasn’t good, despite being close enough for the Wigan manager to think a draw would have been fair.

I'm only reacting to those who are now judging the whole season and our prospects by that one performance, when we have actually still won four of the last six. It happens all the time - including over optimistic overreactions when we get a few wins. I started the season hoping for an improved top half finish, and I still think we’ll probably end up in the second quarter (ie 7th-12th) based on the squad and the record to date. Our defeats haven’t all been awful, nor have our wins all been convincing, but that’s par for the course. I never know what level of performance to expect next, but unlike some I don’t think a home defeat to an underachieving Villa is now inevitable.

It may be, if we play like we did against Wigan, but we are never consistent! 

When you’ve watched it 

Please let me know your views 

Ill repeat again

It wasn’t the standard of the performance (which was pitiful)

or the tactics or selection (Questionable)

It was the complete lack of enthusiasm effort or balls

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

When you’ve watched it 

Please let me know your views 

Ill repeat again

It wasn’t the standard of the performance (which was pitiful)

or the tactics or selection (Questionable)

It was the complete lack of enthusiasm effort or balls

 

From Pack or the team generally?  I thought Pack kept trying but was one of those nights!

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

From Pack or the team generally?  I thought Pack kept trying but was one of those nights!

Team generally

Pack had a poor game but so did virtually everyone (Maenpaa And Webster Probably escape that wrath) but he’s been our best or one of our better players in many a game in last 6-12 months )

I thought a lot ‘dissapeared’ Dave

Going to watch it again when I can bear to and try and watch in a bit more depth

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Team generally

Pack had a poor game but so did virtually everyone (Maenpaa And Webster Probably escape that wrath) but he’s been our best or one of our better players in many a game in last 6-12 months )

I thought a lot ‘dissapeared’ Dave

Going to watch it again when I can bear to and try and watch in a bit more depth

If you’re gonna watch again, would you mind looking at the positions of Eliasson and Paterson when our midfielders have the ball in our own half or just in their half.  My gut feel is that they were too far forward, making the pass from midfield more difficult / risky.  I thought they were rarely square / just forward of square, in position to receive an easy / easier pass.  It meant we didn’t keep the ball...especially away from home to take any sting out of the home side.

Sometimes you want movement towards you, rather than looking for the Hoddle / Hollywood pass.  The widemen coming short also drags full-backs forward create the space down the sides.

Have a watch and see what you think....might just be my impression.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you’re gonna watch again, would you mind looking at the positions of Eliasson and Paterson when our midfielders have the ball in our own half or just in their half.  My gut feel is that they were too far forward, making the pass from midfield more difficult / risky.  I thought they were rarely square / just forward of square, in position to receive an easy / easier pass.  It meant we didn’t keep the ball...especially away from home to take any sting out of the home side.

Sometimes you want movement towards you, rather than looking for the Hoddle / Hollywood pass.  The widemen coming short also drags full-backs forward create the space down the sides.

Have a watch and see what you think....might just be my impression.

Will do mate - (Cant face it at mo!)

Interesting observation - I think a lot of the time our movement is poor and never options coming short unless Weimann does it

IMHO Lee gets ‘greedy’ and wants his full backs to provide the width which in a 4-4-2 is unusual Id suggest 

[TV Tom]

20 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Team generally

Pack had a poor game but so did virtually everyone (Maenpaa And Webster Probably escape that wrath) but he’s been our best or one of our better players in many a game in last 6-12 months )

I thought a lot ‘dissapeared’ Dave

Going to watch it again when I can bear to and try and watch in a bit more depth

When you watch it again Bob keep an eye on Pack and you’ll notice how by far he was the worst of a very bad bunch, let us know what you think after watching the whole game twice, would be interesting 

[Lee0]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What about the good games so far this season?  It’s not like he’s been poor every game is it....or do you think he has been?

No, not every game, I've been at every one except Bolton.... he's been ok in some, stand out in none

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Will do mate - (Cant face it at mo!)

Ha ha....is that your excuse for watching Vanity Fair tonight, own up!!

Interesting observation - I think a lot of the time our movement is poor and never options coming short unless Weimann does it

Famara does too.

IMHO Lee gets ‘greedy’ and wants his full backs to provide the width which in a 4-4-2 is unusual Id suggest 

Under Cotts, Little’s starting position was RW at times, because he knew our 10 was better than most 11s...and Ayling was good / happy enough to be the fall-guy when we conceded down our right side.  It was a sensible risk / reward approach when you have the best players.

For LJ / City we are a mid-table(ish) team trying to make the best of the sum of its parts.  It is too expansive if that is the case without a basis for solid possession, preferably once over the halfway line, not starting within our own third.  If we don’t make the pass, the opposition are right on top of us.

 

2 minutes ago, harrys said:

When you watch it again Bob keep an eye on Pack and you’ll notice how by far he was the worst of a very bad bunch, let us know what you think after watching the whole game twice, would be interesting 

As above, was it because of lack of options?  I’ve said before Pack is at his best when moving the ball up to 20 yards, with the occasional extravagant pass...not having to hit 50 yarders all the time.  Don’t get me wrong he knocked a few balls sideways off the pitch, so I'm trying to say he wasn’t poor, just trying to understand why.

 

[Wrongagain]

On 22/09/2018 at 08:38, Robbored said:

LJ and his assistants had obviously been working with the players on game plan but as others have said none of them played well and were unable to implement said game plan effectively.

Thats why he said post match that he was ‘embarrassed and frustrated’ with the performance.

As in any workplace if a manager shows and instructs his staff how to overcome a particular problem but the staff then fail to deliver, who is at fault?    

Game plan is stuffed when Lee stifles it before a ball is kicked, why does he persist in selecting players either unfit or totally disinterested, we saw the same lame ducks, whether due to injury or lack of ambition,  selected last season when they should not even have been in the squad, there can’t be one player in the team happy to see Paterson up front, if he has performed for 5 minutes in any game since January I haven’t seen it and you can count the number of tackles completed on one hand!

Marlon, I have to say I have never been a fan, but I am convinced he is the heart of our midfield now, yes his passing is sometimes erratic, but he is the motor that gets us going forward! 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Talking about over committing . Did you see the goal Huddersfield conceded against Leicester Dave ?

Unbleievable

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Talking about over committing . Did you see the goal Huddersfield conceded against Leicester Dave ?

Unbleievable

Yes, only the once, was Iheanacho offside from Vardy, or was he behind the ball?  It looked a risky (chance of offside) when he could’ve gone on himself.

[Distortia]

On 22/09/2018 at 09:03, MattWSM said:

We dont have a real potent striker.

Famara Diedhou missed several opportunities to score. He is not championship standard nor is Taylor. They can perform but lack consistency to be a real threat at this level.

Care to expand on this? You think League 1 is Diedhiou's level? I think you are being both reactionary and harsh. He's certainly not the best striker in the division but to say he's "not championship standard" seems very unreasonable to me.

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, Lee0 said:

2 from 10 to the opposition or out of play

 

Not particularly shoddy.

3 hours ago, Lee0 said:

 

Forward 6 inches and 8 yards sideways to a team mate that is then put in a corner with nowhere to go.

If you are going to make something up put a bit more work into it to make it slightly plausible, then some might believe it

[Lee0]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Not particularly shoddy.

If you are going to make something up put a bit more work into it to make it slightly plausible, then some might believe it

Exaggerated..... but only slightly.

 

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

Exaggerated..... but only slightly.

 

Yes untrue and completely exaggerated 

 

[Lee0]

How so ?

Are you of the opinion that Marlon is our best passer of the ball ?

If so, back that up with something, because (if I could be bothered) I could look through games from this season that backs my point up.

 

[AppyDAZE]

14 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

How so ?

Are you of the opinion that Marlon is our best passer of the ball ?

If so, back that up with something, because (if I could be bothered) I could look through games from this season that backs my point up.

 

Talk about going against the grain. Hey, Marlon Pack hasn't had the best of weeks, but are you seriously telling me you think he is crap?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever been to a City game and not noticed Marlon, for good or for bad?

The bloke NEVER shies away from any football game and if you think he's a waste of space, i'm betting you that there  are lots and lots of good football clubs that would bite your hand off for this player.

Shocking assessment of a good City player

[Lee0]

12 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Talk about going against the grain. Hey, Marlon Pack hasn't had the best of weeks, but are you seriously telling me you think he is crap?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever been to a City game and not noticed Marlon, for good or for bad?

The bloke NEVER shies away from any football game and if you think he's a waste of space, i'm betting you that there  are lots and lots of good football clubs that would bite your hand off for this player.

Shocking assessment of a good City player

No, if you read back I've never said he's crap, and I've never knocked his work rate, I have knocked the quality of his work.

I'll answer your question on this season alone.. there have been a couple of games where I've not noticed him, good or bad... but there hasn't been one where I've come away from it thinking he's been great, there have been plenty of games where I've thought that he's a problem.

We definitely have a lack of creativity and a real problem in going forward quickly when MP has the ball.

 

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

How so ?

If so, back that up with something, because (if I could be bothered) I could look through games from this season that backs my point up.

 

The above is a passing map for Marlon Pack.

I make no claim to state he is Bristol City's best passer of a football, but he clearly does not just pass the ball forward 6 inches and 8 yards sideways as you claim. He plays forward the majority of the time and the player receives, retains, releases possession and seeks to repeat that action. Its a primary role of a holding midfield player which in general he does adeptly. 

[Lee0]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

The above is a passing map for Marlon Pack.

I make no claim to state he is Bristol City best passer of a football, but he clearly does not just pass the ball forward 6 inches and 8 yards sideways as you claim. He plays forward the majority of the time and the player receives, retains, releases possession and seeks to repeat that action. Its a primary role of a holding midfield player which in general he does adeptly. 

That's red dots and green lines..... I appreciate that you might know what it shows but I've no idea