Pack....deserving his own thread

[Davefevs]

14 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Apologies for dragging this thread back up.

 

We're back on the MP bashing I'm afraid !

Go on, defend that performance from last night, balls out of play again, 5 yard passes, forward maybe but behind the full back so putting him in a negative position, absolute dog sh*t, gives nothing going forward with the ball, is just a pillar to pass around when we're defending.

A lack lustre performance that needed a captain on the pitch to inspire and drive the team.....NOTHING......AGAIN.

 

 

Very poor last night....don’t think you’ll find anyone that disagrees.

Poor all season?  Not imho, but it’s all about opinions....and some facts / stats too.  Subjective game even with data.

You don’t expect us to come on here and suddenly say “Lee0, you were right all along, we’re sorry” because last night’s game proved he was poor last night....not every game.

[Three Lions]

6 hours ago, Lee0 said:

I'd be ok with Kalas, Walsh or COD playing there at the moment, the thing that's needed is change.

MP is negative in both his initial thought, touch when receiving the ball and his passing, I'd just like to see a forward thinking player with passing ability in there.

Yes, COD would be my first choice, his initial thought is to go forward and has the advantage of being able to run at players, I don't know that it would work, you (or other coaches) don't know that it wouldn't.I base this on the WBA game alone.

If Marlon wasn't selected, on the evidence of his performances so far this season, we'd lose what ?

You want COD to play holding midfield because he runs at people?

 

[Lee0]

6 hours ago, Three Lions said:

You want COD to play holding midfield because he runs at people?

 

No, I'd like to see us play on the front foot and have a player that has the ability to break out as opposed to a player thats initial thought is to play negative football.

 

[Lee0]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Very poor last night....don’t think you’ll find anyone that disagrees.

Poor all season?  Not imho, but it’s all about opinions....and some facts / stats too.  Subjective game even with data.

You don’t expect us to come on here and suddenly say “Lee0, you were right all along, we’re sorry” because last night’s game proved he was poor last night....not every game.

Morning Dave, poor all season? Not imho either, he's had a couple of ok games, but that's as good as it's been, more poor than ok though.

I don't mind you/anyone not agreeing, it's a forum for opinions after all and anything I've written is just that, an opinion.

That said, that's two out of three games since this thread started that MP has been terrible and only the villa game that he was 'ok' (just) ...... I don't need anyone to tell me I was right all along, it's there for all to see, just depends if people want to see it.

[swanker]

15 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

No, I'd like to see us play on the front foot and have a player that has the ability to break out as opposed to a player thats initial thought is to play negative football.

 

I’ve been wanting for O’Dowda to play on the front foot since he arrived. The blokes built for speed and should be running at defends but doesn’t do it. One or two good games a season isn’t good enough for me. Very overrated player. 

[Lee0]

22 minutes ago, swanker said:

I’ve been wanting for O’Dowda to play on the front foot since he arrived. The blokes built for speed and should be running at defends but doesn’t do it. One or two good games a season isn’t good enough for me. Very overrated player. 

Perhaps you should start a thread ?

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Lee0 said:

Morning Dave, poor all season? Not imho either, he's had a couple of ok games, but that's as good as it's been, more poor than ok though.

I don't mind you/anyone not agreeing, it's a forum for opinions after all and anything I've written is just that, an opinion.

That said, that's two out of three games since this thread started that MP has been terrible and only the villa game that he was 'ok' (just) ...... I don't need anyone to tell me I was right all along, it's there for all to see, just depends if people want to see it.

Very true.  I would be taking him out of the firing line on Sunday....it might show others that no-one is a safe-pick every game. It would also give those non-starters some motivation to press hard in training.  At the moment LJ is Re-using the same 14 players pretty much every game....he’s created a clique in some respects.  It doesn’t have to be 2 widemen and 1 striker sub each game.

1 hour ago, swanker said:

I’ve been wanting for O’Dowda to play on the front foot since he arrived. The blokes built for speed and should be running at defends but doesn’t do it. One or two good games a season isn’t good enough for me. Very overrated player. 

I thought he might work on the LHS of a 3 in CM, but I'm getting a bit worried.  Everything happens at 100mph with him at the mo’.  He needs more composure if he’s gonna play in CM.  I don’t think he has the tactical nous yet.  But you never know...could be the making of him.

[Lee0]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Very true.  I would be taking him out of the firing line on Sunday....it might show others that no-one is a safe-pick every game. It would also give those non-starters some motivation to press hard in training.  At the moment LJ is Re-using the same 14 players pretty much every game....he’s created a clique in some respects.  It doesn’t have to be 2 widemen and 1 striker sub each game.

I thought he might work on the LHS of a 3 in CM, but I'm getting a bit worried.  Everything happens at 100mph with him at the mo’.  He needs more composure if he’s gonna play in CM.  I don’t think he has the tactical nous yet.  But you never know...could be the making of him.

So, who would you play in place of MP ?

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

So, who would you play in place of MP ?

Depends 

if he wanted to go for a similar type of role as Pack....probably Hegeler.

if he wants more dynamism, movement, energy, then probably Walsh.

[Trueredsupporter]

On 04/10/2018 at 17:55, Lee0 said:

I'd be ok with Kalas, Walsh or COD playing there at the moment, the thing that's needed is change.

MP is negative in both his initial thought, touch when receiving the ball and his passing, I'd just like to see a forward thinking player with passing ability in there.

Yes, COD would be my first choice, his initial thought is to go forward and has the advantage of being able to run at players, I don't know that it would work, you (or other coaches) don't know that it wouldn't.I base this on the WBA game alone.

If Marlon wasn't selected, on the evidence of his performances so far this season, we'd lose what ?

I have not said I'm a coach!! People have put facts up to show Pack does pass forward despite your inches forward metres to the side posts. 

Arent you talking about  attacking midfield rather than holding midfield??

[Three Lions]

15 hours ago, Lee0 said:

No, I'd like to see us play on the front foot and have a player that has the ability to break out as opposed to a player thats initial thought is to play negative football.

 

You want a dribbling holding midfield player? 

[Lee0]

1 hour ago, Trueredsupporte said:

I have not said I'm a coach!! People have put facts up to show Pack does pass forward despite your inches forward metres to the side posts. 

Arent you talking about  attacking midfield rather than holding midfield??

Facts ? The unexplained diagram ? Did I miss something else ?

JB and MP both play CM, when JB gets the ball, he and the team look to go forward, if MP gets it he and the ball turns back but the team goes forward, so what follows time and time again is a group of passes across the back 4 & gk, the opposition get back into their shape and we then look slow and predictable.

MP is a holding midfielder in a that he holds the team back.

I'm quite happy to chat with you about this but if your only comment is based on a remark that was made (and I've already said it was stretched)  and you've no opinion of your own why are you bothering ?

 

[Lee0]

27 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

You want a dribbling holding midfield player? 

No, I want 2 CMs that can both play on the front foot.

Yes I'd like one of them to be able to sit in, cover, break up play but I'd happily sacrifice a bit of that to have two forward thinking/attacking pkayers in there, the bonus of it being someone that can beat a player, pass, carry the ball and have some pace is obvious, that's not to say MP never does any of those things(apart from the pace!), but it's hardly a reoccurring event is it ?....of course it could go tits up.....but we look awful now with MP playing the way he is.

What would you suggest ? Are you happy for it to carry on as it is ?

[Three Lions]

14 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

No, I want 2 CMs that can both play on the front foot.

Yes I'd like one of them to be able to sit in, cover, break up play but I'd happily sacrifice a bit of that to have two forward thinking/attacking players in there, the bonus of it being someone that can beat a player, pass, carry the ball and have some pace is obvious, that's not to say MP never does any of those things(apart from the pace!), but it's hardly a reoccurring event is it ?....of course it could go tits up.....but we look awful now with MP playing the way he is.

What would you suggest ? Are you happy for it to carry on as it is ?

Is that now 4-4-2 and an attacking four across midfield? No holding midfielder at all? Who are these players? What is the formation? You have the big opinion and started a thread but for a coach you are bloody awful at communicating. Have a look at post 148 thats how to get a view and detail across.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Meanwhile ...............we await the great revelation

 

WHO iS The best passer in the side.......

 

[Lee0]

19 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Is that now 4-4-2 and an attacking four across midfield? No holding midfielder at all? Who are these players? What is the formation? You have the big opinion and started a thread but for a coach you are bloody awful at communicating. Have a look at post 148 thats how to get a view and detail across.

Yep, a 4-4-2, no 'specialist' holding CM.

Stats are great, but as already pointed out by Dave (the poster of those stats) stats are subjective, I'd also add that they can say whatever they like, seeing is believing and week in week out poor performances are there for everyone to see, can you point out one stand out performance this season ?

Its not a BIG opinion, just an opinion.

I feel I've communicated it well enough, I'm not responsible for you not being able to understand it, do you want me to draw a picture ?

 

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Meanwhile ...............we await the great revelation

 

WHO iS The best passer in the side.......

 

It's not MP.

are you this dull when you're sober ?

[MC RISK77]

23 hours ago, swanker said:

I’ve been wanting for O’Dowda to play on the front foot since he arrived. The blokes built for speed and should be running at defends but doesn’t do it. One or two good games a season isn’t good enough for me. Very overrated player. 

O’dowda Is certainly the most overrated player on here. Goalscoring record for a winger is dire very seldom provides assists or chances. The occasional bit of skill seems to be all he brings to the table.

oh and I don’t care that Martin o’neill Thinks he is the mutts nutts.

The fact that someone thinks he should be playing the holding midfielder role is just bonkers.

[swanker]

1 hour ago, MC RISK77 said:

O’dowda Is certainly the most overrated player on here. Goalscoring record for a winger is dire very seldom provides assists or chances. The occasional bit of skill seems to be all he brings to the table.

oh and I don’t care that Martin o’neill Thinks he is the mutts nutts.

The fact that someone thinks he should be playing the holding midfielder role is just bonkers.

I’ve been critical of O’Dowda on here for some while now and that’s the response you usually get “ Martin O’Neil rates him”  I expect O’Neil picks him because ROI aren’t really a wash with good players. 

Over the years I’ve watched some good wingers for city, players that get you out your seat, O’Dowda ain’t one of them!

[Lee0]

13 hours ago, Three Lions said:

Is that now 4-4-2 and an attacking four across midfield? No holding midfielder at all? Who are these players? What is the formation? You have the big opinion and started a thread but for a coach you are bloody awful at communicating. Have a look at post 148 thats how to get a view and detail across.

Watch Leeds play, Phillips and Klich.

Either can break forward with the ball, either of them go forward to close down but the other sits and covers, quick, attacking football..... as opposed to our slow, predictable, easy to defend against football.

I can't explain it any simpler than that.

[Lee0]

6 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

O’dowda Is certainly the most overrated player on here. Goalscoring record for a winger is dire very seldom provides assists or chances. The occasional bit of skill seems to be all he brings to the table.

oh and I don’t care that Martin o’neill Thinks he is the mutts nutts.

The fact that someone thinks he should be playing the holding midfielder role is just bonkers.

A couple more goals wouldn't go a miss for sure.

Hmmmmm..... I'm being told that qualified coaches opinions are more valid by some on here, be difficult to argue with MON if that's the case.

Holding midfielder..... we are terrible in that position, MP has been terrible there (nearly) all season..... why is it bonkers to think COD would give us better options there ? He may not, but, personally I (& not just me) think he might be able to improve the team in that position playing with JB.

[Lee0]

5 hours ago, JonDolman said:

For me the best passer we have is Walsh. That doesn't mean he is as good as the other 3, as it appears he isn't yet. But just going on passing, he is the best. Passes quickly, accurately, forward and with either foot. I think he might just be a bit too weak at the moment in a 2. I like Pack, but I understand your points. He can certainly struggle in a 2, and more so away from home it seems. I've always preferred Smith for what he brings. Smith and Josh would cover the ground needed in a 2 imo. I still like Pack though, but he is certainly struggling at the moment. 

Believe it or not, I like MP too,  I do think there a place for that sort of player but at the moment his play is abysmal.

[Davefevs]

The big problem is the world of Football Manager and FIFA where a generation have got obsessed with the static positioning of players on a pitch and terminology like DM, CAM etc. I get their need in computer games and they do convey positions. You can arrows and player instructions but it’s a bit false. 

I used an example of Everton’s midfield from the mid80s: 

Steven / Bracewell / Reid / Sheedy

How would you define their positions and instructions in Football Manager?

Not easily!

People would want to pigeon hole Reid as the DM because he was the tackler. However, he was box-2-box...so that doesn’t fit a DM!

Bracewell the passer, but not a CAM, rarely broke the lines.

etc eyc

The game outside of goal kicks us too fluid and although simple is complex also!!!

Just like strikers, midfielders build partnerships and some just fall into place, others don’t.

Pack has had 2 really poor performances recently (some of you think more, some of us don’t).

The root cause is not that Pack is shit.  One observation (from me) is that his passing options have reduced.  The simple 10 yard pass option (forward, sideways, slightly back too) have not been there.  That makes it harder to give and get.  Our widemen start too high up the pitch.  This is a contributing feature to Pack’s play and his influence on City’s play.  

His teammates need to work harder to give him options.

The good sides work as hard off the bell as on it.

 

[Lee0]

54 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The big problem is the world of Football Manager and FIFA where a generation have got obsessed with the static positioning of players on a pitch and terminology like DM, CAM etc. I get their need in computer games and they do convey positions. You can arrows and player instructions but it’s a bit false. 

I used an example of Everton’s midfield from the mid80s: 

Steven / Bracewell / Reid / Sheedy

How would you define their positions and instructions in Football Manager?

Not easily!

People would want to pigeon hole Reid as the DM because he was the tackler. However, he was box-2-box...so that doesn’t fit a DM!

Bracewell the passer, but not a CAM, rarely broke the lines.

etc eyc

The game outside of goal kicks us too fluid and although simple is complex also!!!

Just like strikers, midfielders build partnerships and some just fall into place, others don’t.

Pack has had 2 really poor performances recently (some of you think more, some of us don’t).

The root cause is not that Pack is shit.  One observation (from me) is that his passing options have reduced.  The simple 10 yard pass option (forward, sideways, slightly back too) have not been there.  That makes it harder to give and get.  Our widemen start too high up the pitch.  This is a contributing feature to Pack’s play and his influence on City’s play.  

His teammates need to work harder to give him options.

The good sides work as hard off the bell as on it.

 

Good shout Dave and I certainly don't think MP is shit.

I agree with you about computer game football positions analogy but MP really could be a FIFA CDM player and there lies part/most of the problem. It's always Marlon that sits there, rarely wanting to go forward quickly, happy to just keep possession 80 yds from the goal we should be attacking, his team mates want to go forward so when we're in possession that's what they look to do, I do understand the needing more movement part of what you're saying but I feel the lack of movement is caused by the slow play from the he back, players stop making runs or become easily marked if the ball is never coming game after game.

[Three Lions]

5 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Watch Leeds play, Phillips and Klich.

Either can break forward with the ball, either of them go forward to close down but the other sits and covers, quick, attacking football..... as opposed to our slow, predictable, easy to defend against football.

I can't explain it any simpler than that.

Great yes the Philips that sits in a  4-1-4-1 often dropping into centre back so others get forward.

[Lee0]

24 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Great yes the Philips that sits in a  4-1-4-1 often dropping into centre back so others get forward.

Think you need to watch the game again, there were times when Phillips was further forward than anyone, Klich would drop in for him. yes, it was a 4-1-4-1 but Phillips wasn't always the 1 was he ?  Phillips never sat on the edge of his own box playing numerous passes to the keeper and fbs either, it was win the ball, let's go forward football.

[Sixtyseconds]

2 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

Think you need to watch the game again, there were times when Phillips was further forward than anyone, Klich would drop in for him. yes, it was a 4-1-4-1 but Phillips wasn't always the 1 was he ?  Phillips never sat on the edge of his own box playing numerous passes to the keeper and fbs either, it was win the ball, let's go forward football.

Good lad that Philips.

Makes a few chances for the team.

Makes a few assists.

Nearly as many as a player for Bristol City.

Initials M&P...

Factamundo.

[Lee0]

3 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Good lad that Philips.

Makes a few chances for the team.

Makes a few assists.

Nearly as many as a player for Bristol City.

Initials M&P...

Factamundo.

Oh yeah....you said factamundo....must be true....what a ****

[Harry]

Haven’t looked at this thread for 2 weeks and laughing my ass off catching up with it. 

Whilst Mr @Cowshed and I have had our differences with a certain ex-left back, I’m proud of him and his total schooling of the opening poster. Well done @Cowshed  

Pack, quite clearly, has the best passing range at this club. That is why he is chosen by the manager to be the lynchpin/dynamo/quarterback, whatever you want to call it. It’s a clear strength of his that he rarely loses the ball, is comfortable receiving under pressure and he does look to play forwards and often finds passes between lines and turns the defence. 

For anyone to suggest that O’Dowda (a winger - and very unproven one at that) would make a better midfielder than Pack is quite, quite ludicrous. 

Regulars on here would know that I’ve always been an advocate of Pack. In fact I was responsible for scouting him during 2011-2013 and provided multiple reports. I maintain that it’s one of the best £75k’s we’ve ever spent. 

What will probably surprise people is that I actually agree that he’s had a very poor couple of games this season - so I can certainly understand why some posters are reacting to that, but to use falsehoods like “he always passes backwards” etc is embarrassing. 

Pack had been our most consistent performer for 3 seasons and he’s now had a run of poor form. And yes, in the last 2 games he has actually misplaced a number of passes. But that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly a poor player after providing performance after performance for many years. 

He's had a couple of poor games. Me, as his biggest advocate, will freely admit that. But the calculated attack on his abilities by a couple of posters on this thread is really quite embarrassing. 

I agree with the point some have made that Pack misses Smith. 100%. They make a good partnership. And Brownhill doesn’t do the things that Smith does, and it’s the things that Smith does that help Pack to play his game. Brownhill (I’ve mentioned before on here) does not compliment Pack and I see Pack having to cover more of the pitch than he does when with Smith. No excuses, but I think this extra work is impacting on his game. We need another midfielder and I’ve said that this is the new RB situ of last season - where we are one injury away from a crisis. 

Pack has definitely played about 10-15 very poor passes in the last 2-3 games. But the negative opinions on this thread are embarrassing - even when stats have proven that the pass accuracy is very good at this level, to continue to argue against that shows an agenda against the player the gives the impression they’ve been waiting for 2 bad games in a row to launch an attack. 

[Lee0]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

Haven’t looked at this thread for 2 weeks and laughing my ass off catching up with it. 

Whilst Mr @Cowshed and I have had our differences with a certain ex-left back, I’m proud of him and his total schooling of the opening poster. Well done @Cowshed  

Pack, quite clearly, has the best passing range at this club. That is why he is chosen by the manager to be the lynchpin/dynamo/quarterback, whatever you want to call it. It’s a clear strength of his that he rarely loses the ball, is comfortable receiving under pressure and he does look to play forwards and often finds passes between lines and turns the defence. 

For anyone to suggest that O’Dowda (a winger - and very unproven one at that) would make a better midfielder than Pack is quite, quite ludicrous. 

Regulars on here would know that I’ve always been an advocate of Pack. In fact I was responsible for scouting him during 2011-2013 and provided multiple reports. I maintain that it’s one of the best £75k’s we’ve ever spent. 

What will probably surprise people is that I actually agree that he’s had a very poor couple of games this season - so I can certainly understand why some posters are reacting to that, but to use falsehoods like “he always passes backwards” etc is embarrassing. 

Pack had been our most consistent performer for 3 seasons and he’s now had a run of poor form. And yes, in the last 2 games he has actually misplaced a number of passes. But that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly a poor player after providing performance after performance for many years. 

He's had a couple of poor games. Me, as his biggest advocate, will freely admit that. But the calculated attack on his abilities by a couple of posters on this thread is really quite embarrassing. 

I agree with the point some have made that Pack misses Smith. 100%. They make a good partnership. And Brownhill doesn’t do the things that Smith does, and it’s the things that Smith does that help Pack to play his game. Brownhill (I’ve mentioned before on here) does not compliment Pack and I see Pack having to cover more of the pitch than he does when with Smith. No excuses, but I think this extra work is impacting on his game. We need another midfielder and I’ve said that this is the new RB situ of last season - where we are one injury away from a crisis. 

Pack has definitely played about 10-15 very poor passes in the last 2-3 games. But the negative opinions on this thread are embarrassing - even when stats have proven that the pass accuracy is very good at this level, to continue to argue against that shows an agenda against the player the gives the impression they’ve been waiting for 2 bad games in a row to launch an attack. 

Don't think I've ever seen a longer post that says nothing, well done.

Agenda.....? What agenda could I possibly have ? .... I'm just posting an opinion, could be wrong but definitely not proven to be so.

schooling, proven, quite clearly, embarrassing ? Nice words but none of them backed up.

If you've only seen him have a poor couple of games this season then you've only seen a couple of games.

Ive no idea who you are, but this 

Pack, quite clearly, has the best passing range at this club. That is why he is chosen by the manager to be the lynchpin/dynamo/quarterback, whatever you want to call it. It’s a clear strength of his that he rarely loses the ball, 

Followed with this 

Pack has definitely played about 10-15 very poor passes in the last 2-3 games. 

Suggest you're just a gob*hite that's been out on a Saturday night and had a couple too many.

[MC RISK77]

16 hours ago, Lee0 said:

A couple more goals wouldn't go a miss for sure.

Hmmmmm..... I'm being told that qualified coaches opinions are more valid by some on here, be difficult to argue with MON if that's the case.

Holding midfielder..... we are terrible in that position, MP has been terrible there (nearly) all season..... why is it bonkers to think COD would give us better options there ? He may not, but, personally I (& not just me) think he might be able to improve the team in that position playing with JB.

Ok COD is a winger has always been so and as such would have been developed as such through his career to play as wingers do.

his natural tendency will be to go forward and attack.

holding midfielders have to be disciplined go forward when necessary but maintain a comfortable position and not isolate their back 3 or 4. COD naturally won’t do this.

then you have the fact that pack is superior in the air a stronger tackler and a better passer and retainer of the ball.

playing COD in a holding midfield role alongside brownhill would be weak as piss, you do not have the margin for error in the championship to play players who have no experience in a certain position.

some suggested on here that hegeler could play centre back...we saw how that worked out against Leeds last year.

Pack has had a poor month I would suggest but he has been a consistent performer over a number of years now and will not be replaced by COD.