What do you individually want Bristol City to achieve?

[Robbored]

Ultimately I’d want City to become an established PL club similar to Burnley, Huddersfield and Bmuff.

That said, should that happen - what then? 

Europe I guess......

[Redrascal2]

All I ever wanted was the team to show a season by season improvement. With problem areas being worked on and resolved and not reoccurring. To become a solid and consistent team in the Championship. Unfortunately I have not seen that happen and fear I will not under our current manager.Problem areas remain unresolved and when a run of poor form starts he seems unable to stop it. 

[Sixtyseconds]

3 minutes ago, RedJim said:

I thought someone might pick up on that! My main point is (forgetting results): I'm just not sure what our discernible style of play is.

And that's some peoples consistency.

But this Webster chap.

Put a Keeper in goal who can keep the ball.

Yes, yes can see were this going.

Keep it on the deck.

Attempting to progress by passing ahoy.

"Christ sake no man what are they doing this week" … Heard in E34 each season.

[And Its Smith]

50 minutes ago, East End Old Boy said:

Basically this, as it appeared to be nonexistent last night.

Edit: should qualify this by excluding the keeper and centre backs, who performed well.

I dont understand how you can say the players werent trying last night. All were apart from, at times, Diedhiou.

[RedJim]

2 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

And that's some peoples consistency.

But this Webster chap.

Put a Keeper in goal who can keep the ball.

Yes, yes can see were this going.

Keep it on the deck.

Attempting to progress by passing ahoy.

"Christ sake no man what are they doing this week" … Heard in E34 each season.

Webster is decent on the ball, and Maenpaa's distribution is excellent. So we obviously want to play a passing game. But why are we thumping it long so often? Is it just the players default to this when we've got a big man up top (Diedhiou) and are forgetting the coach's instructions? That's the frustrating thing, not the inconsistent results - I can live with that.

[Super Scotty Murray]

I would give Johnson a 6. He has gained my faith again after a poor second season, and he seemed to be making some good tactical decisions this season.

However, the last couple of away games playing 4-4-2 against solid teams who packed the midfield and won everything was a bit poor.

We improved massively in the second half when we changed the shape. Our central midfielders are not creative enough to dominate when the opposition flood the midfield so we need to come up with something to counter that.

On a positive side the signings we have made this summer have generally been good, and after early worries that we might struggle this season we do look like we should be a relatively comfortable mid table side, which is not too bad.

Hopefully we can then push on for promotion next season.

[Sixtyseconds]

18 minutes ago, RedJim said:

Webster is decent on the ball, and Maenpaa's distribution is excellent. So we obviously want to play a passing game. But why are we thumping it long so often? Is it just the players default to this when we've got a big man up top (Diedhiou) and are forgetting the coach's instructions? That's the frustrating thing, not the inconsistent results - I can live with that.

These are now Lee Johnsons people.

Staff.

Players.

Not Keith Burt.

Not Steve Cotterill.

Lee Johnson.

Its his elevator.

It misses out the middle floors because he tells it to.

[EnderMB]

I'm also firmly a 5. Some disappointing results, but I assumed we'd be mid-table this season anyway. You don't spend up mid-season if you play brilliantly every game.

In terms of what I actually want them to achieve. I want LJ to get us promoted, and when we hit the Premier League I want Lansdown to open his cheque book and fund a team that can jump directly to mid-table in the Premier League. It's not a forgiving league for smaller teams, and even the likes of Stoke have eventually succumbed to relegation. 

My biggest fear is that promotion takes us many years, and then we treat it like Yeovil treated their time in the Championship. We get obliterated for a year, and a talented squad is too scarred from failure at the highest level to make another go of it.

[Cowshed]

42 minutes ago, RedJim said:

Webster is decent on the ball, and Maenpaa's distribution is excellent. So we obviously want to play a passing game. But why are we thumping it long so often? Is it just the players default to this when we've got a big man up top (Diedhiou) and are forgetting the coach's instructions? That's the frustrating thing, not the inconsistent results - I can live with that.

Why?

Because it is NOT the model of play.  City do not have a model of play underlined by principles and sub principles. 

Before the season started I posted that despite the recruitment City would very likely still go long because the manager is not truly committed to an approach. Everything follows that approach. Recruitment, training, everything. If it does not opportunity, resource and that time and training is wasted.

How can any team truly be prepared for football approaches that change regularly? 

If you want pressing football get players with the capacity to do it, if you want to play through the thirds get the players, if you want direct get a forward who the ball sticks to and the team can thus get to … Bristol City's approach lacks clarity, and the players are not superhuman be alls, while the best teams in the land commit to style and model in the long term.

 

[ExiledAjax]

It's hard to get excited either way when we are, as most of us expected, putting in a solidly mixed bag of performances and results.

4 wins, 4 draws, 3 losses. A great performance at Swansea, some decent bits against QPR and even West Brom, then dross like last night.

It's mixed, we are 10th...hard to find a real reason to sack LJ but also hard to feel any true belief that we're on the march.

So yeh, everyone is feeling pretty meh.

[RedJim]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Why?

Because it is NOT the model of play.  City do not have a model of play underlined by principles and sub principles. 

Before the season started I posted that despite the recruitment City would very likely still go long because the manager is not truly committed to an approach. Everything follows that approach. Recruitment, training, everything. If it does not opportunity, resource and that time and training is wasted.

How can any team truly be prepared for football approaches that change regularly? 

If you want pressing football get players with the capacity to do it, if you want to play through the thirds get the players, if you want direct get a forward who the ball sticks to and the team can thus get to … Bristol City's approach lacks clarity, and the players are not superhuman be alls, while the best teams in the land commit to style and model in the long term.

 

Exactly my thoughts - it was a rhetorical question on my part. We quite clearly don't have an approach that we stick to, and it is made up on the hop.

[East End Old Boy]

52 minutes ago, RedDave said:

I dont understand how you can say the players werent trying last night. All were apart from, at times, Diedhiou.

For example, Pack was a mile off the pace, as was O’Dowa, both with a noticeable lack of effort and concentration. Diedhiou appeared to lose his head, after not getting free kicks awarded and then just went through the motions for the rest of the game. As always, just my opinion!

[pillred]

1 hour ago, RedJim said:

A lot of people saying midtable is fine but they want consistency. The very definition of a midtable side is that they are inconsistent in their results, and performance. They'll lose as many as they win roughly. Consistency gets you a top 6 finish.

For me midtable is fine, and inconsistent results and performances are ok, but it's the style of play that seems to change from passing football one week to aimlessly banging it long the next. I'm not sure tactically what the plan is under LJ, and it all seems a bit muddled. 

I'm not as angry as a lot of posters on here (though some appear to have borderline personality disorders) but I feel a bit 'meh' about City under LJ. But my attitude to football has changed too, it's no longer the be-all and end-all, and for me it's now about individual moments and memories (Man United last season, title win under Cotts). As long as we don't go down this season I can't really get too wound up about things.

 

Agree not sure Diediou is a good fit with the style of play we aspire to.

[KeepUpLino]

Unfortunately we struggle to play any style particularly well.. Quite depressing tbh and will be surprised if we don’t struggle from now on in!

[Sixtyseconds]

3 minutes ago, KeepUpLino said:

Unfortunately we struggle to play any style particularly well.. Quite depressing tbh and will be surprised if we don’t struggle from now on in!

NOW ..

If they spent time on one not particularly well … Would it get better?

Reckon it might and can.

For Marlons sake.

Marlon has it.

We show for it.

Now you.

Beats.

You have it.

You.

And Long to Famara ..

Now we have to get it back.

 

 

[Red-Robbo]

TBH the season is panning out more or less as I expected: Wild inconsistency - which has been the mark of LJ as a manager everywhere he goes.

We ended last season chaotically, and lost three of our best players and guys who helped bond the team. The new recruits have been better than I expected, I had very low expectations, but I think a bit of team spirit has been lost. 

In the close season, I predicted a below half-way finish and I've seen nothing to make me think this isn't our ultimate resting place. We may pick up some good wins (the frustrating thing is we know that these players are capable of so much more than we saw last night) but I also think we'll have some awful fallow patches.

I'm not heading to the greengrocers for my cabbage just yet, but ultimately the question must be asked, could another manager have got more out of the resources here than Lee has? Do we settle for mid-table every season? I think Lansdown's answer to the latter will be "no".

[Big C]

 Its an 8 for me bordering on a 9, I make no apologies for being firmly in the LJ in camp and wear my happy clapper badge with pride, in my 40 years of following City I do not believe the club has ever been in better hands on and off the pitch. The infrastructure is there and we are going about building up the team and club in the right way. You can only ask for an improved performance each season and he has done this. Yes there have been huge inconsistencies in that period and yes this is something to strive for but we are talking football,  11 individual players against 11 individual players every week and not 22 robots battling it out even the great teams fail to be consistent week in week out. I think one problem is we seem to play better against the better teams and teams who try and play football, we struggle against teams who try and stifle the play and unless we get ahead in these games we do look poor and we need a different plan when this happens.

This is only our 4th season in this division some teams have been here a lot longer and even with the Lansdown money we are still at a huge disadvantage with teams that have played in The Premier League and I think it’s only us, Rotherham, Millwall, Brentford and Preston who haven’t. It so much harder these days to buy instant success, we are getting there we just need to be a bit of patience.

[Cowshed]

22 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

This season is very much in the balance, with some good, bad and ugly, and hard to tell where it will end up. There was a clear shift in signing policy this last summer, with more athletic players signed, and defenders with a tendency to play out from the back. However, a pressing high tempo game is complex to achieve well with our budget. You will struggle to get the balance between athletic , technical and consistency right, as players have it all cost 50 m plus . We have tried at times to play to a certain model, but then we play, even in the same game, a completely different game plan. Either by design or circumstance. 

The issue I have with LJ is that he is still making it up , as if the game was a computer model and you can plug and play. There has been no consistency in approach to how his sides play or the signings he makes. If he always wanted to play a pressing high tempo game why sign Tomlin or Fama for example. 

The key to promotion is setting out your plan, and keeping to it. There are a great many sides who have been promoted to the Prem within 18 months of a new manager taking over, indeed I struggle to think of any  that have gone the long road route to success. You have to play to your assets, and that is the biggest area LJ is a failure, he never creates a side that is greater than the sum of the parts. He is always ready with an excuse , and of course he cannot play like Man City because he does not have the players to do that. We are paying for his education , and we are in the hands of him improving far more than any of his players, because until he works out what is needed to create a cohesive approach for a top 6 side, we are going nowhere.. It is a nonsense to talk about building slowly and a foundation, if you gain promotion, a notable number of players that get you there will no longer be required, so what foundation are you building ? You are certainly not going to get anywhere playing as we currently are in the Prem even with a number of new players that you gain on promotion. Kalas was not signed by Fulham was he, yet is seen by us as a big step up. 

I have yet to see a clear plan to get BCFC to the Prem league, and I only say that as SL has said many times that is the aim. I do not see the actions to match the words. What I see is a side consolidating in the Championship and trying to sustain the financial aspects by selling our best players . This is the Ipswich/Brentford model too it should be noted, so there is no issue with that, as long as you don't expect promotion, and depending on who you sell and replace, the risk of a flirt with relegation will always be there. 

So if your expectation is promotion the LJ gets a 3 for me, if it is to consolidate, sell players, try not to get relegated, then he is doing better and gets a 6 

Personally, after decades in L1, just  staying in the Championship is a success.

 

 

In coaching blurb a model is something built upon the bedrock of footballing principles. I should not have used principles and sub principles earlier in a post. 

Principles are something you stick to … So City have never committed to a model of football in all the time Mr Johnson has been at Bristol City. Models have principles, sub principles for matchday and training that are set as stone. Its a methodical framework. Err away from the model and its not a model at all.

I hope that was not condescending, but there is constant theme on Otib that somewhere there is a great methodical plan being followed … The teams football style … It is being made up as they go along.

[TonyTonyTony]

36 minutes ago, Big C said:

This is only our 4th season in this division some teams have been here a lot longer and even with the Lansdown money we are still at a huge disadvantage with teams that have played in The Premier League and I think it’s only us, Rotherham, Millwall, Brentford and Preston who haven’t. It so much harder these days to buy instant success, we are getting there we just need to be a bit of patience.

Great points and fully agree

I’m a 6/7 on the scale and over the years I’ve watched city we are currently in a “good” period. 

What do I want to see ? See the club growing as it is now (stadium / developments) to make it self sustaining and stable. We would all love to get to the Premier league and I can see us getting there within 5 yrs if we keep growing. I do worry that as a team we seem to have meltdown moments, but even Man City have their bad days.

i know people are eager to want more more more but I would hate to watch city get beat every weekend in the premier league. What would be the point ? 

[CHIPLEY RED]

I'm around a 7 when it comes to LJ. 

I don't think the squad we have is anywhere near good enough to get promotion but I'd like/expect us to be pushing for a top 6 place come April time.

I worry that if we don't make the Prem soon the gap will be too big and no team will be able to make the jump or worse still it becomes a closed shop with no promotion/relegation.

I want to watch good entertaining football (preferably with us winning) and I want us to be playing in the top divison against the big boys like the old Div 1 days.

[Jacki]

Personally, I’d say I’m a 6. I think LJ is doing ok and if you take his results over the time he’s been with us and come up with a points per game average we’ve consistently been a mid table outfit in this league under his management. When you look at budgets etc that’s about where I’d expect us to be. 

What I want at the moment is to watch a team striving to play decent football and comfortably holding their own in this division. I’d say we’re not far off that at the moment. We have witnessed some stinking performances of late but we’re just as likely to see a free flowing display of great football as we are to witness a disaster like the first half last night. It’s the inconsistency that’s frustrating. 

My only major gripe with LJ is his teams tendencies  to hit disastrous runs of form over long periods of time. If he can sort that out, picking up points when we’re struggling rather than going into free fall, we’ll all be a lot happier. I thought we’d finish around 10th-15th this season at the start and still feel the same now. 

As for the club as a whole, I think we’re better run than we have been in my time supporting the club. I think SL does want Premier League football but it’s clear he’s going for a long term, sustainable way of trying to achieve it. With that in mind, I think those who expect a promotion campaign here and now will need to be a lot more patient. Overall I think we’re where I’d expect us to be with how the club is being run, both on and off the pitch, and for the time being I’m quite happy with that. 

[bcfc01]

Like many others, what I want to see City achieve is a consistently good level of performance in our own style. If that can be achieved then the points will follow.

Where are we with that now ?

I'd say a 6/10. Its been a mixed bag really.

Theres a lot of graft to be done by the players and management to shift that to a 7 and performances like last night or at Wigan doesn't help.But theres 35 games to go, so a lot of time to get it right...or wrong.

 

[Major Isewater]

I would just like us to win a major domestic trophy , the FA or the League cup something we've never done in our history.

It gets more and more difficult to do but Wigan , Stoke , Leicester... have shown it's possible. 

I would also like us to fulfill our potential. I believe that we can support à Prem challenge.

We have the potential.

It's like no one actually believes we can get to the Prem . That annoys the hell out of me , always the bridesmaid !

Above all I want to see us progressing towards these goals with a positive conviction that we will do it . 

I like most of what the club are doing at the moment but don't feel we are hard nosed enough to realise the stated goal of Prem football.

We seem content to be the nearly men . 

[NOTBLUE]

After that first half last night about a 1,should we win Sunday with a bit of style 9,I’m just like the team,inconsistent.

[Robin101]

6 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

I too hover between a 4 and 6. 

Like SL though, I’m looking for continuous improvement. I’m beginning to have grave doubts he can deliver. 

He should now be experienced... no excuses. He has his own teams, on and off the pitch. It’s his transfer strategy, tactics, substitutions - he’s in total control. 

His strongest card, ought to be the midfield. He played there, he should know more than most what is required. 

At present, it’s shocking. Just woeful. He’s committed the most basic of management errors. Loads of ‘mini-me’s’. All players that buzz around achieving very little. ‘Lightweight’ is an understatement .... Eliasson, Brownhill, COD, Pato, Walsh, Pack - no strong physical or mental presence to be found. He then reverts to his Barnsley ‘safety net’ with the likes of Watkins to try and provide some ‘trusted’ physicality ( or at least I think he does as I can’t quite understand what he is).

Nope, talks a good game but is starting to worry me that, as Colin suggests, it’s all froth. 

Would I take the squad that Cotts had on promotion or, the squad that over near 3 years and with millions of pounds, the squad that LJ has built? Without question, Cotts. 

 

By this logic, LJ is doing a fabulous job keeping a squad worse than Cotts’ in 10th, and Cotts was doing an even worse job than we thought!

[Alessandro]

For me, 6 or 7.

The key IMO is, even after years watching City stuck between the 3rd and 2nd divisions, I think some people have forgotten, in their desperation for success I guess, the progress we've actually made. The fact we're even having this conversation about the premier league over the last two seasons shows how we have actually progressed, because in my 20/30 years of support it's only really been a reality on 1 occasion, and the division was a lot different back then.

My shorter goals for the club are to simply become more competitive in this division, and harder to beat. This season we are doing that, we've lost 3 times in 11 games. It's funny people say we have no hardmen in our team or we are a soft bunch of mini-me's = again very short memories to the days of Captain Warrior marvellous Flint at the heart capitulating at the heart of a defence that regularly got beaten or threw away 2, 3 goal leads. Since the club record run of defeats we've lost only 3 games in a row in the league on one occasion. 

Progress isn't measured over 1 game, or even 3 or 10 games - it is measured over a season or more. Under LJ, the statistic that matters, final league position, has improved every year. Progress in relation to our budget and standing in this division. Saying things like "Bristol should have a premier league team" - nonsense in my opinion. Why? Football doesn't give a shit about the size of a city, it only cares this day and age about one thing, money. 

Do I think a new manager could come in and do a better job than LJ, yes, i'm sure they're out there. Easier said than done though. And until we are going backwards in our league position, I think LJ deserves to keep his job.

STYLE OF FOOTBALL - I think this "Bristol City play attractive football" is a misnomer. I believe LJ wants to play a more possession based football, but the reality is that works on 2 conditions, 1) You've got ££££££'s to spend on the best players or 2) The opposition afford you the space to do so.

The reality is the Championship has evolved season by season, is tougher than ever (the tightness of the league shows that) and is now a division where every team is organised, physical and hard working enough top counter this style of play. Watching Rotherham last night, they gave us no chance to play our game, as did Villa before, pressing us to our own box and keeper. But I could see that they can't sustain that for 90 minutes, and we needed to stay patient and wait for our chances as the game opened up, it did, we had our chances, but didn't take them. Still a poor performance last night, but I always say it's too easy to ignore the opposition when you judge your own team.

LJ clearly needs to work out how impose our game on the opposition more regularly and have a clear plan B when it doesn't work, like last night. I actually think they do have a plan B, and that's to soak up pressure and break well, had we scored last night, it would have been a smash and grab of course, but how many times have teams done that to us? Boro this season, for example. 

IMO if you, as a fan, expect us to impose and dominate every game, and judge success by our possession and how much pretty football we play, you'll be disappointed more often than not in this division. 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Why?

Because it is NOT the model of play.  City do not have a model of play underlined by principles and sub principles. 

Before the season started I posted that despite the recruitment City would very likely still go long because the manager is not truly committed to an approach. Everything follows that approach. Recruitment, training, everything. If it does not opportunity, resource and that time and training is wasted.

How can any team truly be prepared for football approaches that change regularly? 

If you want pressing football get players with the capacity to do it, if you want to play through the thirds get the players, if you want direct get a forward who the ball sticks to and the team can thus get to … Bristol City's approach lacks clarity, and the players are not superhuman be alls, while the best teams in the land commit to style and model in the long term.

 

Interesting / good post 

 

Interested in your view.....

During Oct / Nov / Dec last year, as we all know , injuries bit and we played the same side mainly dictated to from who was available and went on that fantastic run and more importantly played some of the best passing football , from the back I’ve ever seen at AG, particularly noticeable was we were happy to, and largely successful in playing out from our own corner flags

Was a bit nervy to watch at times but they were excellent Tbf, even against Man City 

Post January that composure (and the press) nigh on dissapeared

This season , noticeably our composure when pressed isn’t a touch on where we were last Nov/ Dec, our press is extremely absent

In fact 8 could go on but if I had to explain LJs ethos in this present side to someone I’m not sure I could piece much together at all

 

in your opinion, why the differences in composure / press etc e5c I’ve highlighted above ?

Weve discussed Famaras part before - Still highly relevant in your opinion ?

 

(In theory) we’ve improved our footballing capability at centre half

In theory most would see JB as better with the ball than KS so that enforced pairing shouldn’t detrimentally our ability on the ball 

COD, Elliasson, Taylor,Diedhiou,Kelly,Baker,Pack have all been at the Club for varying but considerable periods now and spent a minimum of 18 months on training ground with LJ and his coaches so no excuses there

We then recruit Marley Watkins who might be classed as a busy bee but shows nowhere near the ability to integrate into a passing through the thirds philosophy ......

Im confused and personally would describe LJs apparent thinking in recruitment and playing ideas and ethos MUDDLED

 

Genuinely interested in your particular views 

[LilRascal]

Sigh. Didn't quite know which of the threads to post this too - so we've drawn a couple and lost a couple, now we have meltdown - some threads saying we're over achieving, some saying we're average, others says lets get rid of LJ. Lets have a look at where we are in the grand scheme of things. Here's a graph showing our final league position over the years since my very first memories of City. We're currently have as high a league position as we've ever ended up in my lifetime except for two seasons. Not bad, eh? Obviously we have potential to rise further - and I believe we're doing things the right way to get there - last few result have been a blip. What I want as in individual and supporter on City is promotion, what I believe we can achieve this season is top half of the table, what would be horrific would be relegation. We're not going to get relegated. We'll be mid table, and in a higher position than a lot of bigger clubs who have actually won major trophies in their history.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

For me, 6 or 7.

The key IMO is, even after years watching City stuck between the 3rd and 2nd divisions, I think some people have forgotten, in their desperation for success I guess, the progress we've actually made. The fact we're even having this conversation about the premier league over the last two seasons shows how we have actually progressed, because in my 20/30 years of support it's only really been a reality on 1 occasion, and the division was a lot different back then.

My shorter goals for the club are to simply become more competitive in this division, and harder to beat. This season we are doing that, we've lost 3 times in 11 games. It's funny people say we have no hardmen in our team or we are a soft bunch of mini-me's = again very short memories to the days of Captain Warrior marvellous Flint at the heart capitulating at the heart of a defence that regularly got beaten or threw away 2, 3 goal leads. Since the club record run of defeats we've lost only 3 games in a row in the league on one occasion. 

Progress isn't measured over 1 game, or even 3 or 10 games - it is measured over a season or more. Under LJ, the statistic that matters, final league position, has improved every year. Progress in relation to our budget and standing in this division. Saying things like "Bristol should have a premier league team" - nonsense in my opinion. Why? Football doesn't give a shit about the size of a city, it only cares this day and age about one thing, money. 

 Do I think a new manager could come in and do a better job than LJ, yes, i'm sure they're out there. Easier said than done though. And until we are going backwards in our league position, I think LJ deserves to keep his job.

 STYLE OF FOOTBALL - I think this "Bristol City play attractive football" is a misnomer. I believe LJ wants to play a more possession based football, but the reality is that works on 2 conditions, 1) You've got ££££££'s to spend on the best players or 2) The opposition afford you the space to do so.

The reality is the Championship has evolved season by season, is tougher than ever (the tightness of the league shows that) and is now a division where every team is organised, physical and hard working enough top counter this style of play. Watching Rotherham last night, they gave us no chance to play our game, as did Villa before, pressing us to our own box and keeper. But I could see that they can't sustain that for 90 minutes, and we needed to stay patient and wait for our chances as the game opened up, it did, we had our chances, but didn't take them. Still a poor performance last night, but I always say it's too easy to ignore the opposition when you judge your own team.

 LJ clearly needs to work out how impose our game on the opposition more regularly and have a clear plan B when it doesn't work, like last night. I actually think they do have a plan B, and that's to soak up pressure and break well, had we scored last night, it would have been a smash and grab of course, but how many times have teams done that to us? Boro this season, for example. 

 IMO if you, as a fan, expect us to impose and dominate every game, and judge success by our possession and how much pretty football we play, you'll be disappointed more often than not in this division. 

  

Agreed about the Championship being better than ever before, organisation, tactical astuteness- the hard pressing- it is now fairly ubiquitous.

The Plan B. Unconvinced we have a regular one, but in terms of a game this season- best example of that I would give- would be Sheffield United at home. We totally changed shape to match up and helped nullify them until the changes later on when we took advantage.

I get what LJ is trying to do if the ethos is a more attractive game, but it is muddled- generally the best passing sides play with a 3 at the back, or a central midfield 3- dominate those central areas or at least fill them up, and you have much more of a chance of controlling the ball. Don't even have to talk CL level or some of the top teams in the top Leagues (who generally are CL sides)- or even Wolves because of their creative recruitment strategy let's call it. I'm talking Sheffield United- more often than not, dominate the ball and more importantly control the game- they play a 3-4-1-2 and last season even more so it was a 3-5-1-1, a really interesting style.

Championship has evolved as you rightly point out- and as such, with more traditional wingers and more traditional full backs and a standard 4-4-2, dominating possession in that shape is just hard- it's disjointed! Would argue that the higher you go, the more that shape is a reactive one these days, though not necessarily if you lay it out as a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-3-1-2 with the dominance in a central sense, all 4 midfielders being central.

In short, what I'm saying is that signing Webster, Kalas and to an extent, Maenpaa- and trying to play a possession game- ain't compatible at this level in a 4-4-2 with wingers and regular full backs- I know Kalas is injured but the point still stands. It wastes their attributes and gives the team less cohesion I feel if you sign those players and then play 4-4-2.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting / good post 

 

Interested in your view.....

During Oct / Nov / Dec last year, as we all know , injuries bit and we played the same side mainly dictated to from who was available and went on that fantastic run and more importantly played some of the best passing football , from the back I’ve ever seen at AG, particularly noticeable was we were happy to, and largely successful in playing out from our own corner flags

Was a bit nervy to watch at times but they were excellent Tbf, even against Man City 

Post January that composure (and the press) nigh on dissapeared

This season , noticeably our composure when pressed isn’t a touch on where we were last Nov/ Dec, our press is extremely absent

In fact 8 could go on but if I had to explain LJs ethos in this present side to someone I’m not sure I could piece much together at all

 

in your opinion, why the differences in composure / press etc e5c I’ve highlighted above ?

Weve discussed Famaras part before - Still highly relevant in your opinion ?

 

(In theory) we’ve improved our footballing capability at centre half

In theory most would see JB as better with the ball than KS so that enforced pairing shouldn’t detrimentally our ability on the ball 

COD, Elliasson, Taylor,Diedhiou,Kelly,Baker,Pack have all been at the Club for varying but considerable periods now and spent a minimum of 18 months on training ground with LJ and his coaches so no excuses there

We then recruit Marley Watkins who might be classed as a busy bee but shows nowhere near the ability to integrate into a passing through the thirds philosophy ......

Im confused and personally would describe LJs apparent thinking in recruitment and playing ideas and ethos MUDDLED

 

Genuinely interested in your particular views 

Your last sentence LJs apparent thinking in recruitment and playing ideas and ethos MUDDLED should read is clearly integrated into a model of play rather than muddled.

A Marley Watkins for instance looks to have the skills to be that busy bee (like that analogy) in a high press and other modes of pressing, but you note a technical deficiency. High pressing is also integrated alongside passing ability and having numerical superiority when the team loses it. Forget pressing but passing can he busily pass it one touch two !?

Famara .. Done that. Press has to abandoned or altered to accommodate.  

Webster is a obvious improvement at CB if City are truly pursuing a model of play out through the thirds. Lee Johnson has indicated he accepts the risk but that is different to the notion of being wholly integrated. Webster is on the ball frequently but are receivers really creating options for constant support? Are players from other lines dropping to provide width or support behind the line of the ball?

Pack is struggling. Is he getting players showing for the ball creating not one, two but three options? 

Are players creating numerical superiority to create secure possession (secure possessions zones)?

Questions should be answered with a yes if City are really on a path of managing the ball through the thirds.

My answers are no. 

That eighteen months on the training ground has to be spent on concentrating relentlessly on the one model of play and its principles. Deep learning, and confidence comes from knowledge gained from preparation, and of course winning. The past eighteen months, and more has been spent training for different styles of play. Episodic training versus periodized training is known to be ineffectual. If you have differing styles of play and City are going down different paths this season home and away the training cannot be as consistent as that which focusses on that one model of play. The necessary conscious competence and subconscious competence of a fluid team playing with belief is compromised by flip flopping between styles.   

The above is true for Warnock or Guardiola .. They both choose wildly different paths with bold single minded belief. Mr Johnson may become single minded in the future … Muddled it is now.