The Fans Forum , Some rambling thoughts and our Head Coach

[Davefevs]

On 24/11/2018 at 20:01, bearded_red said:

Hahahahahahahaha

Sorry, I know it's very immature of me to respond to a very interesting and well written post (thank you for taking the time to post it @BobBobSuperBob) by focusing on one remark that I wasn't even there to witness myself, but my god. I genuinely can't believe he said that.

I mean it goes without saying that confidence is obviously a necessity and a little bit of ego is almost definitely a good thing in such a job, but so is having some ******* self awareness. Sat here cracking up that he said that to a group of supporters that have had the misfortune of watching his team play 'football' this year. I mean seriously, Jose Mourinho had a Champions League winners medal in his pocket when he called himself a 'special one'.

 

As for what you mention in regards to aura and credibility I make you spot on. There are many reasons I believe him to be extremely unlikely to ever have any real success as a manager (head coach), but that is certainly up there.

Obviously it's a guess (although an educated one) as I don't actually know the bloke I can imagine that although he is perfectly pleasant and other managers may give you a much harder time, he could be very difficult to truly respect. The way he talks and his little 'jokes' here and there would make him rather irritating as far as I'm concerned. I could imagine myself, as you hint at yourself, cringing when he talks and just finding him a bit odd.

As far back as his little dig at Kodjia's tactical awareness after he just arrived, put myself in Kodjia's shoes and I would seriously be thinking who on earth this bloke, that I'd never heard of and only met a few weeks ago, thinks he is. Although I guess we now know who he thinks he is, someone that with a top budget would 'walk the championship'. Sorry, still laughing at that.

Even the nonsense about Taylor the other week. Obviously it was an attempt at a joke, nobody actually thinks he was brought on because he has a song. But it was such a terrible attempt at a joke made at completely the wrong time. You wonder what goes through the bloke's head.

This summarises nicely so many of my posts over the last 2 years.

12 hours ago, bearded_red said:

Heard it mentioned over the weekend that Karanka had just passed five years in management, his first job at Middlesbrough coming around six months after Johnson turned up at Oldham.

It’s weird I never hear anyone excusing Karanka and suggesting Forest fans, or Boro before, have to be patient because he’s ‘young and still learning’.

A lack of ability is far more likely to be the case than a lack of experience.

 

Re Karanka - you missed the 3 years as Assistant at Real Madrid and 2 years as Spain u16 manager.  He served an apprenticeship.  LJ missed that, yet SL recommended him to do a full “re-wiring” job at Oldham.

@BobBobSuperBob the best thread ever on here.  Based on factual conversation in the fans forum itself and several witnesses in the post-forum chat with LJ.  That can’t be disputed, although one poster has tried to poo-poo it.  Also led to some brilliant responses too.  And what what you told me offline, you could’ve posted a bit more, but that would’ve sounded a bit low.

@Bobfish looking forward to post #143.

[RedM]

Many points on this thread make a harsh read, but I cant find myself denying they are true. I feel really deflated when I see this written down in black and white.

From what I can guess is that there are positives and negatives for both SL and LJ in their relationship, but Bristol City isn’t the winner, and I don’t see it changing either. 

[Natchfever]

21 hours ago, jj77 said:

If the reward outweighs the expenditure why do you think Lansdown is reluctant to spend like other billionaires do?

Because I doubt in his heart of hearts he really believes his choice of coach would deliver the required payback.

[blockbrowt1]

On 24/11/2018 at 17:55, BobBobSuperBob said:

Evening all

Apologies after disappearing for several reasons after the forum posts -

Anyone who asked a specific q resulting from it and not answered below - I will try and answer directly at some point

Will stay out of the today’s post match reaction and rewind the clock to my Post Forum thoughts and some bits that came out that some might find interesting, relevant and want to chew over , and clarify some misinformation that has surfaced from the Forum

 

The badge

I see one of our posters has indicated that ‘Concorde’ was mentioned 

unless it was mentioned Post Forum it wasn’t mentioned by JL on stage

 

‘ Replacing / Finding a striker from the academy ‘

In fairness this has been misrepresented , when asked about finding a Goalscorer MA and LJ explained that they are at a premium and very costly in the Championship and we had to look to see how we could replace goals including seeing what we could develop from within. - it was NOT a case of we will / need to replace from academy

 

Leaders & Characters

Lee was asked about characters / Leaders and having said in 2016 we needed leaders and the same again recently 2 years or so later , why we were still saying the same thing and hadn’t recruited a leader(s) 

LJ explained that they had been retrying to develop leaders amongst the group and mentioned MP specifically

 

Position in Possession

LJ , in response to a question spent some time explaining what he means by this. I won’t go into detail on this post but simplified , where he wants players to be when we are in possession - suppporting , or, protecting the player in possession - ( becoming more cautious ?  may be relevant to some of our turgid play IMHO)

 

Side v Leeds

said he was picking a side that would ‘run and sprint’

Then named side as played today except COD was starting instead of Adelukan

When he named Paterson I think most let out a noise of surprise off the back of his run and sprint comment

 

Which takes me into Jamie Paterson

From a number of comment , Lee is clearly confused himself whether or real problem is creativity or taking of chances and unsure whether to look for a Goalscorer or a creator

Lee didn’t say this specifically but he clearly sees JP as one of our best chance of being a creator and I think that’s why he keeps trying to shoehorn him in

 

Famara Diedhiou 

LJ appears, unsurprisingly ,  clearly disappointed in Famaras influence / performances recently and kept saying he ‘needs to get him going’ as he did with a number of the players and the players as a collective 

 

Matt Taylor

Been struggling as he’s been having 2 hrs sleep at a time due to a new baby

 

The way we’ve been playing

Lee thinks we have been playing well , and cutting through the first two thirds of the pitch with ease but struggling with creating and taking chances

 

He, on a number of occasions , accepted Preston performance was awful but put it down to one bad game 

on a number of occasions it was pointed out to him that in Fans opinions it wasn’t a one off bad game and cited Wigan , Rotherham etc but LJ didn’t accept that

 

I thought it summed up when one chap said to Lee

 ‘ It’s not one bad game Lee it’s 10 wins or so since January’

LJ turned to the supporter and said ‘ I know , and why ? ‘

the supporter together with the others present looked bemused and the supporter rightly said 

‘ I don’t know Lee , you’re the manager , you tell me’

 

Lee’s explanations were a mix of refereeing decisions , injuries , the loss of ‘ 3 £15. Million pound strikers’ in 3 seasons and the loss of Flint Bryan and particularly Reid (I think he’s right about Reid)

Slightly worryingly he particularly highlighted as an example Hordurs long throw to Flint but in fairness also explained why he felt Bobby so valuable

I won’t go into full detail but he is absolutely full of and focused on stats

 

Lee Himself

In discussing the pressure on him I thought Lee made a very good point

Someone on here asked if LJ feared the sack - would he have been brave enough to blood Max

Lee made a similar point insomuch he said he tries to get involved with U 13s etc and if he thought he was going to get the sack soon why would he bother with the acdemy, ie was he doing the right thing and the message that he needs that security / backing to get involved that way - It’s a fair and valid point but more a question of priorities at present time for me  

 

Lee comes across as a decent bloke and have to say again how I admired him for stating so long stood amongst supporters answering questions and discussing various things

 

There are some things he mentioned that I don’t think fair to post on here but most don’t reflect on him or his abilities or otherwise

 

Having listened to him at close hand for a hour some of my general thoughts about him were strengthened

Very passionate

lives and breathes football and his post

Very confident in his abilities, possibly to a degree not yet born out by his performance. He made a claim at one point that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’ - Confidence is good, indeed probably vital but over confidence or belief is possibly not

Lee appears a bit confused and maybe shocked by recent performances or lack of and kept saying about needing to get the ‘players going’

Unsurprisingly, He is clearly feeling the pressure

He also appears in confusion and dilemna as to whether our real problems lie in our creativity in the final third or our lack of real goal scorer

I have to confess, listening to him closely I think he could be described as dillusional ( IMHO ) in the way he describes and sees us playing and our performances

He again spoke about his ‘Busy Bee’ philosophy , but when asked how Famara fitted into any ‘Busy Bee’ philosophy he couldn’t really explain In all honesty

Having spoken to him on a few occasions and watched him since he’s been here I keep coming back to the same thing

Somebody on the Forum thread mentioned ‘aura’

I heard GJ speak and on a number of occasions and thought he epitomised aura, I recall thinking ‘Yep I’d want to play for you’

I’ve been lucky enough, on occasions to meet various characters in the game and some have had a natural aura and presence , some not

For me personally , Lee just doesn’t have that aura / presence - that’s not a criticism , that’s just the way it is

 

So when it comes to managing the players and getting the best from them Lee can try the bullying or Churchill approach , or cajoling with a backdrop of credibility

If I’m honest I believe that Lee has , and does try both

For me he simply doesn’t have the presence / aura or credibility to,pulll off the first

the second, - He clearly tries this and clearly appears to back up his coaching with a lot of stats and analysis - credibility still a question ?

 

His passion is clear , but I just don’t see him tactically or maybe more importantly , a clever / good ‘manager / leader / motivator’ 

Personally I think he gets too hung up in details and stats and he has the misfortune of saying , what I regard as silly or strange things which as I stood there the other night , and on previous occasions , if I was a player I’d be thinking ‘oh shut up’ or ‘What ?..eh ?  ‘

I’m not at all sure he has either the respect of players or that they fear him or any other motivational factor

 

I’d love to know the real truth about recruitment - a conversation I had at the Forum makes me suspect MAs fingers in the pie

 

I think LJ is trying to follow some demanding ‘wants’ from the owner as best he can

if I’m honest I’m not sure he’s up to the whole task

At one point you could almost see his exasperation as he said ‘ I’ve got to develop players from the academy , sell players to get funds in , and be twenty points clear at the top of this league’

 

Slightly dramatic but you get his drift

 

So just a few bits for people to mull over

My immediate fear is that I sense / smell a Head Coach and Squad that looks lacking in ideas or consistency in approach and has a relegation fight feel all over it atm - And Personally I don’t fancy this squad in a relegation battle

 

As I said earlier in the week , right man , wrong job for me

 

 

Great post and a lovely read. Thank you BBSB. What are your thoughts on a Director of Football.? Do you think it would help him? Would he accept it?

[Davefevs]

41 minutes ago, blockbrowt1 said:

Great post and a lovely read. Thank you BBSB. What are your thoughts on a Director of Football.? Do you think it would help him?

Yes

Would he accept it?

No

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

42 minutes ago, blockbrowt1 said:

Great post and a lovely read. Thank you BBSB. What are your thoughts on a Director of Football.? Do you think it would help him? Would he accept it?

As Davefevs - definitely

and No !

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

The more I muse about him and listening to him for a fair while , despite all my reservations about him in his current role and current set up , I’m in no doubt and surely few could argue that a sucessful Lee Johnson could only be good for Bristol City in so many ways 

(And my success would be continual stability with a plan and recruitment to fit that plan , with a view to onward progression)

I genuinely believe that he has improved and fostered some things , behind the scenes that may well , or will benefit us in the long terms and neither enthusiasm or application lacking

Unfortunately, or fortunately , however , we aren’t an experimental new L1 outfit / project but a Championship Club (atm) and therefore any flaws are punished and costly

I really would like to see him have a self-check and remodel some things, get the players onboard , and stabilise us in mid table

The players can not hide either and need to step up

COYR

[Major Isewater]

50 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

The more I muse about him and listening to him for a fair while , despite all my reservations about him in his current role and current set up , I’m in no doubt and surely few could argue that a sucessful Lee Johnson could only be good for Bristol City in so many ways 

(And my success would be continual stability with a plan and recruitment to fit that plan , with a view to onward progression)

I genuinely believe that he has improved and fostered some things , behind the scenes that may well , or will benefit us in the long terms and neither enthusiasm or application lacking

Unfortunately, or fortunately , however , we aren’t an experimental new L1 outfit / project but a Championship Club (atm) and therefore any flaws are punished and costly

I really would like to see him have a self-check and remodel some things, get the players onboard , and stabilise us in mid table

The players can not hide either and need to step up

COYR

I just get the impression that LJ seems to be playing Championship Manager with the club .

He , admittedly, has cut out the Kamikaze substitutions but still leaves  me with this impression.

I agree with you it would be a fitting reward for hard work , fantasy, courage and fidelity for LJ to move the club onto a solid platform but as it stands it's looking like a return  for sentiment over realism.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

If not a DOF, how about an experienced assistant- to guide him but not manage him- might that be an easier sell for him?

Someone like Joe Jordan if he wanted it would be a great fit I think.

[exAtyeoMax]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If not a DOF, how about an experienced assistant- to guide him but not manage him- might that be an easier sell for him?

Someone like Joe Jordan if he wanted it would be a great fit I think.

Like the thought but can’t imagine him going for it somehow. Would JJ sit back quietly if LJ went against him? Would LJ take kindly to advice? And admit If he’d been wrong

 

[Sturny]

Sometimes I hope i'm wrong about LJ not being the right man, but reading this and seeing it's valid is kinda depressing. We're not in for a fun season at all. 

January will be completely flat as usual too. Anyone got a tissue?   

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Like the thought but can’t imagine him going for it somehow. Would JJ sit back quietly if LJ went against him? Would LJ take kindly to advice? And admit If he’d been wrong

 

Yeah you're probably right. Just think JJ would have ticked a lot of boxes- but yeah the 2 may clash in that respect. LJ I suspect doesn't take so well as you say to being told he's wrong- admitting it probably less still.

Because looking at it- successful player, was a manager- assisted Redknapp at Portsmouth and Tottenham in PL/CL IIRC and knows this club- has a history here. Shame really...

[Frenchay Red]

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If not a DOF, how about an experienced assistant- to guide him but not manage him

I suspect that someone already fills that role, when he's not occupied managing TUFC

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

I suspect that someone already fills that role, when he's not occupied managing TUFC

GJ a better manager for us than LJ- by a long stretch. Not once under GJ did I fear relegation from this League.

I'll be in a minority on here, but I'd have given him a final summer, a final chance to rebuild the team and go again back in 2010- perhaps get rid of some of the unhappy players and give our (arguably) best manager since Dicks- though Cooper did a lot with little- well one of our best post Dicks- a chance to rebuild the team to go again one more time over a season or 2- but with targets and conditions built in.

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I just get the impression that LJ seems to be playing Championship Manager with the club .

He , admittedly, has cut out the Kamikaze substitutions but still leaves  me with this impression.

I agree with you it would be a fitting reward for hard work , fantasy, courage and fidelity for LJ to move the club onto a solid platform but as it stands it's looking like a return  for sentiment over realism.

 

There is no save pre-game, reboot your pc and try a different tactic in the real world Championship. 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

I suspect that someone already fills that role, when he's not occupied managing TUFC

No, no, no. Whatever his coaching badges have taught him, his fundamentals were developed from his dad. He needs someone very different imho. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

47 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I just get the impression that LJ seems to be playing Championship Manager with the club .

He , admittedly, has cut out the Kamikaze substitutions but still leaves  me with this impression.

I agree with you it would be a fitting reward for hard work , fantasy, courage and fidelity for LJ to move the club onto a solid platform but as it stands it's looking like a return  for sentiment over realism.

 

I was more getting at 

If we were sucessful , are there any out there who would be more enthusiastic and committed

Ie As in who would it be better (In terms of his Club links and SL ‘ links’) to have at the helm if we could be sucessful 

LJ or....... Bruce ..... Warnock....

Undoubtedly IMHO  there are some out there who if backed would offer a better chance of top six , but realistic under the brief ?

Not so sure

I think I’ve been clear Major that I don’t really believe he’s the right man , and most importantly doesn’t appear to learn or change certain traits, and the problem is I think there are undoubtedly quite a few would have done better with the chance and resources Lee has had , so , at the very minimum , IMHO needs to up his game or time will run out 

If he gets it going , good luck to him and we may benefit long term

But , the  short term is the paramount focus right now 

[BobBobSuperBob]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

GJ a better manager for us than LJ- by a long stretch. Not once under GJ did I fear relegation from this League.

I'll be in a minority on here, but I'd have given him a final summer, a final chance to rebuild the team and go again back in 2010- perhaps get rid of some of the unhappy players and give our (arguably) best manager since Dicks- though Cooper did a lot with little- well one of our best post Dicks- a chance to rebuild the team to go again one more time over a season or 2- but with targets and conditions built in.

So would I 

a hundred times over

If I was SL I’d have been telling the players that GJ wasn’t going anywhere and to keep their mouths shut , up their game or I’d find them a new club

[Nogbad the Bad]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

GJ a better manager for us than LJ- by a long stretch. Not once under GJ did I fear relegation from this League.

I'll be in a minority on here, but I'd have given him a final summer, a final chance to rebuild the team and go again back in 2010- perhaps get rid of some of the unhappy players and give our (arguably) best manager since Dicks- though Cooper did a lot with little- well one of our best post Dicks- a chance to rebuild the team to go again one more time over a season or 2- but with targets and conditions built in.

Agreed, the mutinous players should have been shown the door with immediate effect, not GJ.

I wasn't at Plymouth that night but remember comments on here from some who were that it was lucky the City fans couldn't have got into that dressing room at half time, because they were just as furious at the non performing players as the manager.

The players were a disgrace and they should never have been allowed to win the day.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If not a DOF, how about an experienced assistant- to guide him but not manage him- might that be an easier sell for him?

Someone like Joe Jordan if he wanted it would be a great fit I think.

I would love JJ around the team in some capacity, DOF there might be a slim chance but assistant ????  none. 
I doubt LJ would like a strong/knowledgable DOF over him , but the thought of getting rid of his choice of right hand man (men) and have a much more experienced and probably more respected man by his side, I could never see that.
It SHOULD have happened when Pembo left, the fact that it didn't speaks volumes. 

I think Jordan would offer a lot to the current set up, I really think it's a shame and missed opportunity he has  not been involved on some level.

[glen humphries]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If not a DOF, how about an experienced assistant- to guide him but not manage him- might that be an easier sell for him?

Someone like Joe Jordan if he wanted it would be a great fit I think.

He had a experienced assistant, but he got rid of him pretty sharpish.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

I would love JJ around the team in some capacity, DOF there might be a slim chance but assistant ????  none. 
I doubt LJ would like a strong/knowledgable DOF over him , but the thought of getting rid of his choice of right hand man (men) and have a much more experienced and probably more respected man by his side, I could never see that.
It SHOULD have happened when Pembo left, the fact that it didn't speaks volumes. 

I think Jordan would offer a lot to the current set up, I really think it's a shame and missed opportunity he has  not been involved on some level.

I wonder if LJ has built any relationships in football that might fit that role.  I don’t see a mentor coming in to help him.  The names he refers to, Pep, Jose, Kenny, Marwood are obviously not realistic hands-on, day-to-day options.  Anyone aware of other viable options?

34 minutes ago, glen humphries said:

He had a experienced assistant, but he got rid of him pretty sharpish.

I do wonder how much influence SL had in that and his wish to get Macca (future City Manager in his eyes) into the first team set-up.  I know Pembo wasn’t a Cotts fan, but he was part of Cotts team ultimately, and was probably seen as a threat to SL, MA and LJ....and the project.

[glen humphries]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wonder if LJ has built any relationships in football that might fit that role.  I don’t see a mentor coming in to help him.  The names he refers to, Pep, Jose, Kenny, Marwood are obviously not realistic hands-on, day-to-day options.  Anyone aware of other viable options?

I do wonder how much influence SL had in that and his wish to get Macca (future City Manager in his eyes) into the first team set-up.  I know Pembo wasn’t a Cotts fan, but he was part of Cotts team ultimately, and was probably seen as a threat to SL, MA and LJ....and the project.

Think you’re spot on Dave, would of liked Pembo to have been given a chance of the top job.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wonder if LJ has built any relationships in football that might fit that role.  I don’t see a mentor coming in to help him.  The names he refers to, Pep, Jose, Kenny, Marwood are obviously not realistic hands-on, day-to-day options.  Anyone aware of other viable options?

I do wonder how much influence SL had in that and his wish to get Macca (future City Manager in his eyes) into the first team set-up.  I know Pembo wasn’t a Cotts fan, but he was part of Cotts team ultimately, and was probably seen as a threat to SL, MA and LJ....and the project.

My understanding is that LJ was appointed and asked to recruit his own backroom staff. He’d worked with Deano previously and brought him to City and played in the same team as Macca who he obviously knows well.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, glen humphries said:

Think you’re spot on Dave, would of liked Pembo to have been given a chance of the top job.

I’m not sure.  Did a very decent caretaker role, but the fact that he didn’t use that as a springboard to a manager’s job elsewhere probably shows he’s happy as a no2.  Happy to be corrected though.

Going back to LJ’s mentor list above....how many of them have experience of the Championship? Kenny with Blackburnfor one season an age ago.  He needs to build a better network.  Of course he may we’ll have, but it’s not obvious as you never hear him say “me and Colin”, or “me and Aitor” chat regularly do you?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

My understanding is that LJ was appointed and asked to recruit his own backroom staff. He’d worked with Deano previously and brought him to City and played in the same team as Macca who he obviously knows well.

I’m sure he was.  That’s sort of my point.  You could argue that given that blank sheet by SL / MA, he made subjectively average (at best) choices imho.

[Nbafc]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 I know Pembo wasn’t a Cotts fan, but he was part of Cotts team ultimately, and was probably seen as a threat to SL, MA and LJ....and the project.

Something I've often wondered Dave. Have got the impression that egos have at times been prioritized over what's best for the club for a long while.

Hope it isn't so, because it would be an enormous, if not insurmountable, hurdle to sustained progressed, as well as having more sinister overtones (removal of threats that is).

 

[glen humphries]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not sure.  Did a very decent caretaker role, but the fact that he didn’t use that as a springboard to a manager’s job elsewhere probably shows he’s happy as a no2.  Happy to be corrected though.

Going back to LJ’s mentor list above....how many of them have experience of the Championship? Kenny with Blackburnfor one season an age ago.  He needs to build a better network.  Of course he may we’ll have, but it’s not obvious as you never hear him say “me and Colin”, or “me and Aitor” chat regularly do you?

I could be completely wrong but I get the feeling , he’s not overly liked by other managers.