The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[RobinTuga]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Lo and behold it turns out, Kieran Maguire said on today's PoF podcast, that the alleged buyer is the 22 year old self-styled soft drinks millionaire (nobody has heard of the alleged soft drink of course) who was given short shrift by the EFL when he tried to buy Morecambe.

Will Wigan survive the summer I wonder?

You know it's bad when even the "fit and proper" test actually says no for once.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Random Twitter account but an interesting claim all the same..? Comes in two parts.

I woukd in turn ask what of Stoke and potentially Nottingham Forest and maybe even Fulham. If we have questions we are not alone. Sheffield Wednesday too? Is there a question to 2023 or 2024?

I assume that he means Risdale? Yeah the chances are that Scott will be sold but even that notwithstanding as it stands I suspect we are in line.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Random Twitter account but an interesting claim all the same..? Comes in two parts.

I woukd in turn ask what of Stoke and potentially Nottingham Forest and maybe even Fulham.

I assume that he means Risdale? Yeah the chances are that Scott will be sold but even that notwithstanding as it stands I suspect we are in line.

Presumably the sale of Semenyo escaped their attention.

And who would take anything Risdale says seriously?

[bcfc01]

5 hours ago, chinapig said:

Lo and behold it turns out, Kieran Maguire said on today's PoF podcast, that the alleged buyer is the 22 year old self-styled soft drinks millionaire (nobody has heard of the alleged soft drink of course) who was given short shrift by the EFL when he tried to buy Morecambe.

Will Wigan survive the summer I wonder?

Probably not, but now under a transfer embargo..

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Presumably the sale of Semenyo escaped their attention.

And who would take anything Risdale says seriously?

He is on the EFL board a club rep tbh so he would have an idea.

Agree I can't see it myself. Had we not sold Semenyo then quite probably but suspect we are okay now.

I suspect Risdale if it even was him said nothing of the sort anyway and this is a Twitter user filling in the blanks based on club models who may or may not have an issue.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

He is on the EFL board a club rep tbh so he would have an idea.

Agree I can't see it myself. Had we not sold Semenyo then quite probably but suspect we are okay now.

Mark Ashton was on the board too. And dare I mention Shaun Harvey? It's not necessarily a character reference!

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Mark Ashton was on the board too. And dare I mention Shaun Harvey? It's not necessarily a character reference!

Suspect it's been taken out of context anyway. If it even was Risdale and that's guesswork on my part due to the Preston connection.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Random Twitter account but an interesting claim all the same..? Comes in two parts.

I woukd in turn ask what of Stoke and potentially Nottingham Forest and maybe even Fulham. If we have questions we are not alone. Sheffield Wednesday too? Is there a question to 2023 or 2024?

I assume that he means Risdale? Yeah the chances are that Scott will be sold but even that notwithstanding as it stands I suspect we are in line.

45 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Mark Ashton was on the board too. And dare I mention Shaun Harvey? It's not necessarily a character reference!

Mark Ashton has been talking at an EFL conference this week.

I hope he hasn’t been talking out of turn.  He’s not a board member anymore though, so might not be him that’s being referred to.

[Hxj]

It is clear that City will easily clear FFP to May 2023.

The buying out of Martin's and Klose's contracts were announced on 31 January 2023 four days after the sale of Semenyo.  Buying out the contracts would have accelerated any end of contract costs to 2023 rather than 2024.

So it is clear that the club could afford to bring those costs forward and stay within FFP.

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

Probably not, but now under a transfer embargo..

 

Wigan very much has a Bury feel to it. Different issues but the same feeling that it's just gonna end up badly for them.

[Rob26]

10 hours ago, Hxj said:

It is clear that City will easily clear FFP to May 2023.

The buying out of Martin's and Klose's contracts were announced on 31 January 2023 four days after the sale of Semenyo.  Buying out the contracts would have accelerated any end of contract costs to 2023 rather than 2024.

So it is clear that the club could afford to bring those costs forward and stay within FFP.

possibly could save money as well if come to an agreement with a player to pay out early, that's usually the crack when coming to these agreements. 

take a little less get out of contract faster, maybe get a deal elsewhere and end up making more overall.

also can have other savings when they get another deal, like a lot of contracts have clauses in them for when they are sold so the club only has to pay out what they are short. eg don't request transfer, leave (or get released and find a new club during your previous contract period), currently being paid 5k a week by former club, new club pays 3k a week, they have to make up everything after the 3k so they are not out of pocket. without these clauses it would make a lot of transfers just dead losses due to the amount of wages that would need paying out 

so I think with one of them players finding another club, and if you paid them out upfront there should of been some saving to the club for that also

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 hours ago, Hxj said:

It is clear that City will easily clear FFP to May 2023.

The buying out of Martin's and Klose's contracts were announced on 31 January 2023 four days after the sale of Semenyo.  Buying out the contracts would have accelerated any end of contract costs to 2023 rather than 2024.

So it is clear that the club could afford to bring those costs forward and stay within FFP.

I dunno about easily but I have no concerns about breaching either. My best guess was a couple of million clear to May 2023. If there were notable questions we wouldn't have been able to spend on Dickie and McCrorie- by spend I of course mean fees.

57 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

possibly could save money as well if come to an agreement with a player to pay out early, that's usually the crack when coming to these agreements. 

take a little less get out of contract faster, maybe get a deal elsewhere and end up making more overall.

also can have other savings when they get another deal, like a lot of contracts have clauses in them for when they are sold so the club only has to pay out what they are short. eg don't request transfer, leave (or get released and find a new club during your previous contract period), currently being paid 5k a week by former club, new club pays 3k a week, they have to make up everything after the 3k so they are not out of pocket. without these clauses it would make a lot of transfers just dead losses due to the amount of wages that would need paying out 

so I think with one of them players finding another club, and if you paid them out upfront there should of been some saving to the club for that also

Ywah was kinda my thinking too. In the case of Klose family reasons, Martin as we've seen has got gametime at QPR. Win-win really.

Partial pay-off can be win-win. Helps the club save some wages, gives the players some money and the chance to explore new opportunities.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Rob26 said:

also can have other savings when they get another deal, like a lot of contracts have clauses in them for when they are sold so the club only has to pay out what they are short. eg don't request transfer, leave (or get released and find a new club during your previous contract period), currently being paid 5k a week by former club, new club pays 3k a week, they have to make up everything after the 3k so they are not out of pocket. without these clauses it would make a lot of transfers just dead losses due to the amount of wages that would need paying out 

I don't think that the regulations allow for compensatory payments from the old club to the new club, of for an old club to keep paying a player whilst he is at a new club.

The club might make some savings by terminating the contract, but the player might just say no thanks, keep paying me, and all my end of contract bonuses plus the July payment.  Some savings might be made for example by paying the player after they permanently leave the UK.

[bcfc01]

Stoke looking at a big transfer window with 10-12 signings...

Not sure how that fits in with FFP.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/phones-going-off-stoke-city-8508835?_ga=2.221168664.1680359641.1684575811-1800856165.1666126682

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Stoke looking at a big transfer window with 10-12 signings...

Not sure how that fits in with FFP.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/phones-going-off-stoke-city-8508835?_ga=2.221168664.1680359641.1684575811-1800856165.1666126682

Seems a fans question led piece of speculation.

If you did the same with our fans we’d be saying we need at least 7/8.

Re FFP it depends how much they were allowed to offset for covid, but they must be very close to the £39m limit, which based on their normal(ish) loss levels sounds like “trade to buy” imho.  I very much suspect the Harry Souttar sale was not about creating a summer “war-chest” but some (all?) of it used to comply with the £39m limit.

They’ve cleared some if the decks this summer:

but it hardly feels like they’ve got funds to mad, big or both!!

Neil is quite a shrewd operator in the transfer market, so expect clever signings rather than marquee-type signings.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Davefevs

[Mr Popodopolous]

Half the squad has left tbh but yes they're supposed to be going big. @bcfc01

I've covered it in some depth but for me there are multiple outstanding questions about the period either to 2021 or 2022.

1) In 2019-20 they attributed some £30m of Player amortisation to Covid Losses. This means that not only was the loss accelerated into a Covid year, their argument was, is that it should not be included in the calculations as all as it is a loss attributes to Covid, they wrote down some £43m in all that year but £12-13m was included as regular impairment.

This has the dual effect of not only writing it off from the losses that year but excluding it in its entirety. A triple effect perhaps which I shall come into in point 3 or 4.

2) In 2020-21 they wrote odd or attributed £10-11m in lost transfer profits and cost savings to Covid. Running total now £40-41m.

3) They also 'sold' the Bet365 and Stadium, aggregated profit some £32m, I say sold it was a sale and Leasrback trick..The Bet365 stadium constituted the bulk of the profit going for around £70m! Profit approaching £30m, just a few million on the Training Ground.

4) There was also a further £2-3m in lost transfer profits and cost savings attributed to 2021-22.

5) Further to this the dodgy Covid losses meant that a plethora of okayers could leave in particular in summer 2021 thereby freeing up wages but sold cor the remaining book value which would be low.

Remember that 2019-20 and 2020-21 were aggregated and halved so in a Covid context:

£88m

£9m

£48.5m for halved pre tax losses.

Covid impact attributed was £56m.

Halved for Covid.

£28m

Profit on Disposal of the Fixed Assets.

£32m

Halved for Covid.

£16m

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Seems a fans question led piece of speculation.

If you did the same with our fans we’d be saying we need at least 7/8.

Re FFP it depends how much they were allowed to offset for covid, but they must be very close to the £39m limit, which based on their normal(ish) loss levels sounds like “trade to buy” imho.  I very much suspect the Harry Souttar sale was not about creating a summer “war-chest” but some (all?) of it used to comply with the £39m limit.

They’ve cleared some if the decks this summer:

but it hardly feels like they’ve got funds to mad, big or both!!

Neil is quite a shrewd operator in the transfer market, so expect clever signings rather than marquee-type signings.

Chatter on their forum is of an 8 figure gross spend. Had a quick article read.

In theory they could go quite big if all of their Covid losses are allowed. Their Covid arguments seem to total £59-60m across the 3 years which is laughable IMO given that £42-44m was argued for transfer market Covid impact.

To push it to the max I expect that perhaps push their wage bill back up to mid £30m. Their wage bill was £37m in 2021-22. £29m was their underlying pre tax loss prior to sales in 2021-22.

Their Covid attributed claims account for 50 pct of 3 year turnover which again us laughable. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[NcnsBcfc]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Seems a fans question led piece of speculation.

If you did the same with our fans we’d be saying we need at least 7/8.

Re FFP it depends how much they were allowed to offset for covid, but they must be very close to the £39m limit, which based on their normal(ish) loss levels sounds like “trade to buy” imho.  I very much suspect the Harry Souttar sale was not about creating a summer “war-chest” but some (all?) of it used to comply with the £39m limit.

They’ve cleared some if the decks this summer:

but it hardly feels like they’ve got funds to mad, big or both!!

Neil is quite a shrewd operator in the transfer market, so expect clever signings rather than marquee-type signings.

Went big on the loan market last year didn't they @Davefevs@Mr Popodopolous

A lesson that it doesn't always bring you the success that the fanbase thinks it will do. Some of those released players (Clucas, Powell in particular) would probably have commanded decent transfer fees. Just like us in 21/22 season, a lot of money walking out of the club on a free.

Other players like Dwight Gayle aren't going to be exactly cheap either. I'm amazed it a way that the EFL has never really questioned their Covid write offs. Unlike the Derbys and Weds of this world that got hammered, Stoke seem to have breezed through the period of accounts scrutiny. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by NcnsBcfc

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Went big on the loan market last year didn't they @Davefevs@Mr Popodopolous

A lesson that it doesn't always bring you the success that the fanbase thinks it will do. Some of those released players (Clucas, Powell in particular) would probably have commanded decent transfer fees. Just like us in 21/22 season, a lot of money walking out of the club on a free.

Other players like Dwight Gayle aren't going to be exactly cheap either. I'm amazed it a way that the EFL has never really questioned their Covid write offs. Unlike the Derbys and Weds of this world that got hammered, Stoke seem to have breezed through the period of accounts scrutiny. 

Reason one: they pay their bills on time

Reason two: they follow proper accountancy processes

Reason three: they worked with the EFL to reach compliance 

 

The covid allowances for impairment type stuff looks very generous admittedly, but we don’t know the detailed guidelines behind them.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Davefevs

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Went big on the loan market last year didn't they @Davefevs@Mr Popodopolous

A lesson that it doesn't always bring you the success that the fanbase thinks it will do. Some of those released players (Clucas, Powell in particular) would probably have commanded decent transfer fees. Just like us in 21/22 season, a lot of money walking out of the club on a free.

Other players like Dwight Gayle aren't going to be exactly cheap either. I'm amazed it a way that the EFL has never really questioned their Covid write offs. Unlike the Derbys and Weds of this world that got hammered, Stoke seem to have breezed through the period of accounts scrutiny. 

We had to cut our cloth a lot, an awful lot.

£37m in wages in 2021-22,  they have signed Gayle on a free who won't have been cheap wage wise players such as Wilmot, Vrancic, Sawyers, Surridge the year before. Many many PL loanees and one or two from European top flights.

Thereafter the sales of Collins, Souttar and Bursik set them right but I have serious questions about equality of treatment.

Everton have been referred for something very similar to Stoke btw. Just a matter of size etc.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Another question that I have about Stoke and the guidelines- is that the EFL ruling as well as set loss limits was losses directly attributable to Covid.

Now I don't see how you can directly attribute impairment of players who were not good enough, conveniently unable to realise value supposedly owing to Covid, lost transfer profits which are hypothetical. Finger in the air, speculation time?

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/directly-attributable-cost#:~:text=Directly Attributable cost means a,to which it is related.

 The League's guidancs appears to be confidential but I rather hope clubs raise the huge gap with the EFL.

Unsure whether KMPG woukd agree with the analysis of Stoke either although football is unique as an industry.

https://kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2020/06/covid-19-income-statement-ias1.html

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Another question that I have about Stoke and the guidelines- is that the EFL ruling as well as set loss limits was losses directly attributable to Covid.

Now I don't see how you can directly attribute impairment of players who were not good enough, conveniently unable to realise value supposedly owing to Covid, lost transfer profits which are hypothetical. Finger in the air, speculation time?

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/directly-attributable-cost#:~:text=Directly Attributable cost means a,to which it is related.

 The League's guidancs appears to be confidential but I rather hope clubs raise the huge gap with the EFL.

You know as well as I do MrP, those are the limits without needing to supply additional info.  Those aren’t the limits carte-blanche.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You know as well as I do MrP, those are the limits without needing to supply additional info.  Those aren’t the limits carte-blanche.

That is true Dave, it's more the directly attributable vs indirect costs that I have an issue with as the latter seems speculative to me. I don't see how transfer market related impact can be directly attributed in most cases.

Either way they got very lucky as without Covid they would have failed big time in one of the seasons.

I'm quite comfortable to day that despite the losses, our losses across the two Covid years were between £15-20m, closer to the latter probably Couple of million last season too. Gate receipts, Commercial especially and so on.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

leeds look like they have sorted their take over for the 49s, price went down from paying 400m for 56% to 170m for the same share and they also look to have recovered the ground, that's some hit to take on your investment on the way out :laugh:

how do they look FFP wise for the up coming season? trying to get a gauge if they need much in the terms of sales or they have enough room to throw money about if they wish too

[ExiledAjax]

36 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

leeds look like they have sorted their take over for the 49s, price went down from paying 400m for 56% to 170m for the same share and they also look to have recovered the ground, that's some hit to take on your investment on the way out

how do they look FFP wise for the up coming season? trying to get a gauge if they need much in the terms of sales or they have enough room to throw money about if they wish too

Talk of deferred consideration based on future performance though. So if they get promoted within X years Radzanni gets further cash. So £170m is just his base consideration.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Rob26 said:

leeds look like they have sorted their take over for the 49s, price went down from paying 400m for 56% to 170m for the same share and they also look to have recovered the ground, that's some hit to take on your investment on the way out

how do they look FFP wise for the up coming season? trying to get a gauge if they need much in the terms of sales or they have enough room to throw money about if they wish too

Despite some uncertainty over Augustin Leeds should be aok FFP wise.

£83m Upper Loss Limit to this coming season for one.

They also have as well as Parachutes and one of the naturally higher incomes at this level anyway.

A) Relegation wage reduction clauses of up to 50 pct. Unsure if that is across the board or what. This even says 50-60 pct.

https://www.leedsunited.news/news/report-every-leeds-player-has-relegation-clause-in-contract-that-keeps-club-afloat/#:~:text=The Telegraph say every Leeds,Championship from the top tier.

B) Had they stayed up, they would have has to habe paid £40m or so in survival bonuses. That is a cost and a cost removed- I assume that unlike promotion bonuses, survival bonuses wouldn't be excluded from FFP.

C) Selling Phillips and Raphinia plus whatever loan fees and cost savings for Costa and James will have helped the accounts laat year.

Think they are coming down in an alright state. Players will be sold too of course.

Depending on how the survival bonus is or isn't accounted for, whether it's relevant for FFP or not, it is still £40m that relegation meant they didn't have to shell out. Unsure which other clubs use such an incentivised structure.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

rodrigo has a 3m release clause :laugh:, thats alot of transfer revenue down the drain, kinda makes me wonder how you expected to motivate a player who has a almost what could be considered free transfer for a player of his value if the team suffers relegation :laugh:

koch is also rumoured to have a similar if not free transfer clause on relegation also. 

the club been managed with the player deals as a total mess by the sounds of it :laugh: 

[Mr Popodopolous]

That particular buyout clause is fairly ludicrous! Rodrigo one...he is worth somewhat more. Has a decent PL, La Liga and CL record or okay anyway at least when taken collectively, it's not a pure striker either- granted he is 32 but bargain for somebody as cover or first choice- versatile too can play as a wider striker or through middle.

In fact he has been linked with Real Madrid for said buyout clause. Benzema, Hazard and Asensio have all gone so...

Koch on a free if accurate would certainly be a decent deal for someone here or in Europe.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

their old DOF Orta used to work for us at boro before we let him go and he went to leeds, they were all hailing his genius etc on the way up, plenty of us thought wait that the same guy we had working for us :laugh:, do think he worked well with karanka but karanka was all about turning the club spanish as much as he could I think :laugh:, but some of the things coming out with bad decisions made me think I wonder how many more bad deals he would of made if he didn't have our owner keeping him in check, instead of a billionaire who seems like he was just playing a game owning a football club :laugh:

[Mr Popodopolous]

One small update.

Been keeping an eye out and just checked again.

Still awaiting 2021-22 numbers for:

Huddersfield Town

Peterborough United

Sheffield United

1) The Football Club- The Sheffield United Football Club Limited

2) The Parent- Blades Leisure Limited

Sheffield Wednesday

1) The Football Club- Sheffield Wednesday FC Limited

2) The Parent- Sheffield 2 Limited

3) The Stadium Company ie the one who purchased it- Sheffield 3 Limited

4) The Parent of the Stadium Company- Sheffield 5 Limited.

The first two are in the football group, the second two in the Stadium group.

First 3 took extension until end of June, latter until end of July. Cited Covid probably. Without extensions first 3 end of March and last group end of April respectively was when they were due by.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous