The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ha that explains it! Maybe he and a little chat to him afterwards but either way I'd love to ask SL a few questions about Stoke and maybe Nottingham Forest, slightly greyer Fulham and even back to 2018-19 Aston Villa.

I suspect those questions would be better asked of Phil A.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I suspect those questions would be better asked of Phil A.

That is fair. I am sure SL would have some strong and up to date views on it being owner but the CEO would be there on the ground more often.

Reckon could have had a good convo with Richard Gould about it for sure.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

21 hours ago, Hxj said:

I don't agree for the reasons stated earlier, but would be interested in why he thinks that (other than because it's a 10 year season ticket (which in itself is incorrect)).

 

well I asked how you divide something that is potentially lasting as long as someone is alive :laugh:

only way I think you could do it the way he said is take zero revenue until you are promoted to the premier league and then divide by ten and allocate 10% each year. 

 

KS obv is basing it based on how you have to apply season ticket revenue currently (as he covers in their book)

which is much simpler when its a fixed term that only applies to one year, (rather than a open ended potentially never ending deal)

eg season tickets are for 23/24, your club asks for early bird season tickets during the last quarter of the account year of 22/23 season,

club gets all the cash in during that account period,

but they have to apply the revenue in the following years accounts as and when the service is delivered, so all the revenue for that season gets put in the accounts for year 23/24

otherwise clubs can change the date they bring the money in early one year to have 2x season tickets revenue in one period to make the books look better and get a boost in ffp for that season. 

 

if he is right anyways it don't sound like many people will take the offer up, be interesting to drop in on some forums to see how the locals respond to the offer to see if many sound like they will bite or not.

Sheffields a bit of a hard up area that I dont imagine many people are pulling out 5k-8k 

[Rob26]

looking on the sheff wed forums they are not many people looking to take it up, think less than 100 will even bother,

they are more worried about why the owner has asked for this, its only for cash flow purposes, 

its confirming their worst gut feelings about the owner not wanting to put money into the club for them https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/322648-10yr-st-now/page/1/#comments ( i got to page 14 and hadn't seen one person saying they were taking the deal up)

some are joking that that they will have early bird season ticket off in October coming up too :laugh:, another joked he will be selling future champions league tickets at a discount next 

this post let me know why they are worried:

Quote

December 2019 - A report in The Sun claimed the players received a maximum of £17,000 of their wages in November and were told the rest would be delayed before the club settled the outstanding amount days later.

January 2020 - Sheffield Wednesday announce 10 year season tickets

June 2020 - Several Sheffield Wednesday players were not paid in full, according to the BBC Look North. The report suggested it involves salary and loyalty bonuses.

November 2020 - It emerged the Owls' squad only received a small percentage of their regular salaries. It is believed that the players received a maximum of £7,000-a-month of their wages with the rest being sent through later to make up the totals.

December 2020 - The Professional Footballers' Association (PFA) are called in to offer advice to the players after the club failed to pay them on time. Financial director John Redgate speaks to the players on Zoom, assuring them they will be paid in full their outstanding money for November and December.

January 2021 - Some players did not receive their wages in full for January and had their salaries capped at £7,000.

May 2021 - Several senior Wednesday players are reportedly considering handing in their two-week period of written notice due to the ongoing situation at the club regarding unpaid wages.

so the big question isnt how much money will they make from this (comes across as very little due to the numbers may well be sub 100)

but why is he asking for this? last time it was because he couldn't afford to keep the club running (probs because we sold him jordan rhodes for £11m :laugh:) 

[Rob26]

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thanks. They belatedly paid up at last.

I assume that to be referring to the case against Nantes and or agent, agency, Insurer maybe I dunno.

Their FFP position remains of interest but they could he looking to utilise some sort of write-back or compensation or similar relating go the Sala (RIP) transfer to square the FFP circle, as part of their strategy anyway.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I had a little think about Sheffield Wednesday and could they be working at the lower £15m adjusted limit owing to a possible lack of equity put in lately?

Not that they would be docked points etc, that's only if you go over £39m but it could restrict them and my explain a few things. Or it could be something above £15m but below £39m.

Their huge caution if we take the losses on face value albeit before accounts materialise doesn't make much sense in the context of up to £39m adjusted losses.

Or he could be set to try and build, who really can say with Chansiri.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leicester set to sell Barnes for £35m, as expected. Unsure final fee but whatever it is will be pure profit.

Still wonder if one or two may need to be sold, but the allowables will be quite high given the PL infrastructure certainly.

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23667406.blackburn-rovers-announce-new-venkys-sponsorship-deal/

Fair Value rules, related and associated parties.

If it's multi million over several years that's one thing, if it's multi million per year that's quite another.

E.g.

£4m/4 years..fairly normal.

£4m per year on a 4 year deal?

Hmm..

Edited July 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/23667406.blackburn-rovers-announce-new-venkys-sponsorship-deal/

Fair Value rules, related and associated parties.

If it's multi million over several years that's one thing, if it's multi million per year that's quite another.

E.g.

£4m/4 years..fairly normal.

£4m per year on a 4 year deal?

Hmm..

As long as it's deemed to be fair value then I see no problem with it. I'm surprised Lansdown hasn't done this with one of his numerous companies. But then I think Lansdown likes to have a very clean image. 

Coventry have recently announced a deal with King of Shaves which is owned by the brother of the owner and the owner himself. Again I hope it's fair value and not either too low or too high. 

I hope the EFL look into both of these deals to ensure they are fair. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

As long as it's deemed to be fair value then I see no problem with it. I'm surprised Lansdown hasn't done this with one of his numerous companies. But then I think Lansdown likes to have a very clean image. 

Coventry have recently announced a deal with King of Shaves which is owned by the brother of the owner and the owner himself. Again I hope it's fair value and not either too low or too high. 

I hope the EFL look into both of these deals to ensure they are fair. 

I do agree, Fair Value is the key and only real relevant criteria here for FFP.

Seen suggestions from one or two Coventry fans that their one is a relative pittance but who knows.

[Rob26]

Coventry are a very well run tight ship, I doubt they would have need to fiddle for the purpose of FFP, before this season they had only spent 2m on transfer fees roughly over 3 seasons, suprised they dont get a real sponser if they just using the advertising space for their own benefit, must be a perk of ownership :laugh:

are blackburn close to ffp? 

think for clubs like blackburn and coventry can defs get away with a value of 1-1.5m per year when compared to other clubs who are always around the top half of the table typicaly.

think we get similar for unibet

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Agreed with all that.

In theory I'm looking at Blackburn and thinking they should again be fine for this season and selling Ash Phillips to Tottenham may also have helped a bit but after this season the Armstrong profit drops off and Brereton-Diaz leaving on a free won't help.

[Rob26]

ive never looked into blackburns numbers but they come across as owners that know when they have to sell to balance the books 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Including the Training Ground in 2021, not long before the rule against Fixed Asset profits kicked in!

However yes they seem to walk the line in general or have in recent years without necessarily going over it.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

ive never looked into blackburns numbers but they come across as owners that know when they have to sell to balance the books 

 

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Including the Training Ground in 2021, not long before the rule against Fixed Asset profits kicked in!

However yes they seem to walk the line in general or have in recent years without necessarily going over it.

Using my very simplistic table and estimated operating losses of £20m per season (which could be reduced by transfer profit), they are fine:

[Rob26]

yep most my impression of them is down to interviews ive heard from our ex player tony mowbray talking about his last season in charge there, there they basically told him they were selling the best part of the team and that they wont be any proceeds to spend and he had to make it work.

he made it work and still got sacked for not doing well enough :laugh: 

but that kinda gave me the impression they were someone who was going to look after themselves 

but thats probs more to do with cash flow than ffp 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Yeah agreed. Nixon who can be alright on North West clubs suggested cash flow was a factor a while back.

Based on @Davefevs they would have complied irrespective of the sale although there seemed to be some doubts in Spring 2021..they did remain under a soft embargo until late June, early July iirc. However once Covid losses factored in they were close but still ultimately okay.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Element of realism, element of guesswork.

Adding known costs and assumed costs, namely the academy then I estimate that Leicester City have FFP allowances of say £20m per season. I did an addition of depreciation, Community Expenditure, Women's Team and amortisation and Impairment excluding Player Registrations a little while ago.

Assuming costs of £20m per year.and £1-2m as stated in their accounts of Covid costs in 2021-22 I would suggest that their total aggregate pre tax loss to the coming season will be £144-145m from 2021-22 to present.

Of this £92.4m has already been used in 2021-22.

In FFP terms it already equates to about £70.4-71.4m.

Which leaves a reminder not in each of but aggregated across 2022-23 and 2023-24 of £51.6-52.6m in pre-tax losses.

Or in FFP terms £5.8-6.3m per season on average in FFP terms. Or £25.8-26.3m in actual accounting losses.

This is using the 2021-22 numbers as a baseline.

I wonder what the size of a potential hole might be. I assume that they passed the test to 2022-23.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/se7-partners-obtain-efl-approval-for-charlton-athletic-takeover/

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

FFP biting a bit at Fulham?

Good if so, given losses and yes Promotion Bonuses and Covid of.

Before tax:

2017-18, £45.241m

2018-19, £20.18m

2019-20, £48.112m

2020-21, £93.516m

2021-22, £57.017m

It's about time wouldn't we say. What a shame.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

FFP biting a bit at Fulham?

Good..given losses and yes Promotion Bonuses and Covid of.

Before tax:

2017-18, £45.241m

2018-19, £20.18m

2019-20, £48m

2020-21, £93m

2021-22, £57m

It's about time wouldn't we say. What a shame.

They may be more concerned about Mitrovic saying he won't play for them again because they wouldn't let him go to Saudi Arabia and Silva considering a £35m offer to go there.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, chinapig said:

They may be more concerned about Mitrovic saying he won't play for them again because they wouldn't let him go to Saudi Arabia and Silva considering a £35m offer to go there.

Some of their fans say Silva getting edgy as they can't improve as they would like due to FFP so the two might be connected to some extent.

£40m now.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Closer to home, had a quick browse of the Action for Albion website. Excellent and I wish them well in holding their ownership to account.

These are the clubs ie West Brom's words but a couple of interesting snippets on the finances.

Ironically I think the enforced cost cutting post Parachute Payments, it could see them fine with FFP but could lead to struggles on pitch.

Wages, just the projected 130-140 pct of turnover this season. Mind you it isn't so different to varied clubs in the League I imagine.

A key difference being that their owner is unable, unwilling or both to put his own cash in from an equity or cash flow perspective- the MSD loan will help but racks up interest and the club themselves are owed loan(s) taken out by Lai and Peace

https://www.actionforalbion.co.uk/meeting-minutes-jun-21/

Edited July 21, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

On 21/07/2023 at 18:03, Mr Popodopolous said:

FFP biting a bit at Fulham?

Good if so, given losses and yes Promotion Bonuses and Covid of.

Before tax:

2017-18, £45.241m

2018-19, £20.18m

2019-20, £48.112m

2020-21, £93.516m

2021-22, £57.017m

It's about time wouldn't we say. What a shame.

50m for mitrovic to saudi looks like might be happening

[Davefevs]

I’ll add on transfer forum too

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting article.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/why-every-premier-league-club-talking-about-financial-fair-play-summer-2507331&prmd=ivn&strip=1&vwsrc=0

I do question if all clubs are getting the same level of energy or oversight. Nottingham Forest have posted large losses for a while although the spike both in Upper Loss Limits and £100m in TV money could offset majorly.

Aston Villa as we know, will have a £100m profit on disposal dropping off this time next year as a starting point.

Everton are already charged, Fulham have posted some huge losses in recent times and unlike Nottingham Forest don't have the spike in loss limits or TV revenue more like Year 1 Parachute Payments to PL TV money. Remained at £72m to 2022-23 due to the Covid rollup and yoyoing, Bournemouth likewise.

Both £83m Upper Loss Limit in 2023-24, Nottingham Forest likewise.

Bournemouth I don't see how they're so much better placed than Wolves in the cycle to 2023 or 2024. I doubt they have major allowables either tbh. Bet they have lower income than Wolves too.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting thread on the Wolves forum too although having read the first few posts some bits look suspect to me.

The Premier League handbook for 2023-24 may well prove me wrong but I'm quite sure that the Profit and Sustainability rules have not yet changed but on that thread they seem to be applying the new turnover to wages (but not amortisation in their thread) based model.

That site isn't readable at all, format wise. On a phone certainly ..Molineux Mix.

https://www.molineuxmix.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/turnover-accounts-etc-economics-the-why-no-transfers-thread.720700/

Had a read of the Handbook, no tangible change. The £105m still applies and no reference to the whole wage percentage thing. 

As for relegated clubs a new snippet I hadn't seen before. Leeds, Leicester and Southampton as they will almost certainly have aggregated a loss will have to submit their 2022-23 accounts to the League by the end of December at the latest. 2021-22 are in the public domain already and a relevant test to this season will be as mentioned 2021-22, 2022-23 and the Projected for 2023-24. £83m adjusted limit.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sheffield Wednesday accounts are due Monday. For 2021-22. Plus Sheffield 2 Limited, Sheffield 3 Limited and Sheffield 5 Limited.

Says they're confident that they'll meet the deadline. Basic no?

[Ostrich]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting thread on the Wolves forum too although having read the first few posts some bits look suspect to me.

The Premier League handbook for 2023-24 may well prove me wrong but I'm quite sure that the Profit and Sustainability rules have not yet changed but on that thread they seem to be applying the new turnover to wages (but not amortisation in their thread) based model.

That site isn't readable at all, format wise. On a phone certainly ..Molineux Mix.

https://www.molineuxmix.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/turnover-accounts-etc-economics-the-why-no-transfers-thread.720700/

Had a read of the Handbook, no tangible change. The £105m still applies and no reference to the whole wage percentage thing. 

As for relegated clubs a new snippet I hadn't seen before. Leeds, Leicester and Southampton as they will almost certainly have aggregated a loss will have to submit their 2022-23 accounts to the League by the end of December at the latest. 2021-22 are in the public domain already and a relevant test to this season will be as mentioned 2021-22, 2022-23 and the Projected for 2023-24. £83m adjusted limit.

Yes they seem to be applying the new UEFA rules because I’m pretty sure the Premier League hasn’t changed yet to come into line with them.

I don’t doubt we needed to do something for existing PL rules but the complete lack of activity last summer from us seemed to be about coming in line with UEFA rules/getting us ready for a PL rule change. The reason this was believed was because before the UEFA rule change came about, there was talk about a big rebuild in the summer, then come pre-season after the full details had been released in April/May it very clearly changed. But it didn’t end well so I’m not sure Wolves need to worry about UEFA rules right now too much.