Mr Popodopolous Posted February 9 Author Report Share Posted February 9 https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-leeds-united-ready-to-take-legal-action-against-nottingham-forest/ In layman's, TLDR if Nottingham Forest found in breach of Upper Loss limit, Leeds will be considering legal action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 9 Author Report Share Posted February 9 (edited) I guess it will depend on how far over Nottingham Forest are, what level of deduction they receive and if they are found guilty of course. Everton received-10 for the Period ending 2022. Only Leeds and Burnley would have a realistic claim there IMO. Watford and Norwich seem too far back really. Then it gets more complex. Laat season anything up to two clubs found in breach, the deficit and gap respectively would need to be.. Southampton you'd think are too far out of it. Everton..-6 would bring Leeds and Leicester into the equation. 2 or 3 subject to GD would bring Leicester. Nottingham Forest, 4 points and 7, 5 and 8 respectively to bring Leicester and Leeds into it. Edited February 9 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-leeds-united-ready-to-take-legal-action-against-nottingham-forest/ In layman's, TLDR if Nottingham Forest found in breach of Upper Loss limit, Leeds will be considering legal action. Can we get compo for being knocked out of the Fa Cup and the money that comes with that by the FFP cheats? I'm being flippant here but does leave a sour taste. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 9 Author Report Share Posted February 9 (edited) 28 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: Can we get compo for being knocked out of the Fa Cup and the money that comes with that by the FFP cheats? I'm being flippant here but does leave a sour taste. Plus a potential handball goal VAR missed! Yes it didn't just cost us Prize Money but a plum draw, TV revenue and another full house (the 45% cut). Edited February 9 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 9 hours ago, Markthehorn said: Basically down to selling Pedro . https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/24107501.good-profit-plus-debt-reduced-watford-face-tricky-times/ Yeah, was aware of the make-up of it, just that it bucks the trend, and some, of Championship clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markthehorn Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Yeah the interest is key for Profit and Loss with loans, Cash Flow shouldn't be an issue while you have the Pozzo backing? Why was Pedro sold by 30th June? Would surely have made more sense to have it on 1st July unless there was a crunch which I can't see that there was. The Gap between Parachute and EFL cash to Solidarity and EFL cash- that being next season if Watford stay down is £40m. Falls about £5-10m Year 1 to Year 2 Parachute Payments. Watford should be fine for a but longer, Norwich however if they stay down..They face a possible double whammy. Oh also Watford and Norwich both Adjusted Upper Loss limit to last year £72m, this year £61m, next year if still down- £39m. Not sure tbh ! Knowing our lot there was probably some dodgy reason.. Fans aren’t too confident about the future unless there is new investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 10 Author Report Share Posted February 10 (edited) Being quoted on there takes me back. Tbh chances are Nottingham Forest are FFP wise aok to this year with the Johnson sale, the £83m limit. Did I read of a £10m loan fee for Mangala?? The VAR thing annoyed me more tbh. Edited February 10 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 11 Author Report Share Posted February 11 (edited) Bit of an oddity at Reading. Given their accounts are made up go end of June, March 31st 2024 is their deadline. Both the club and the Parent- Renhe Sports Management. For some reason it appears to say June 30th. That applied during Covid the extra 3 months but.. Edited February 11 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 11 Author Report Share Posted February 11 Oh and Birmingham City Football Club Limited, now Birmingham City Limited (formerly PLC). Confirmation Statement for both is showing as overdue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 12 Author Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) Interestingly, Matt Slater suggests that West Brom are on course for a £35m loss this season. That is somewhat aligned to my figures post Parachute Payments. Worth noting that they made a £5m Pre Tax Profit first year down despite and inclusive of a) Year 1 Parachute Payments and b) £16m in Player Transfer Profits. This was obviously before the debt Impairment whereby Lai and or Peace owed them money. Otoh Amortisation down, wages surely down to some extent, obviously sacking Ismael and hiring Bruce adds a bit to the cost base. £35m seems within a reasonable Ball Park though. Edited February 12 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 12 Author Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) Fulham fan moaning about FFP which I found when Twitter searching WBA FFP is quite funny given how Al-Fayed pre FFP days pumped them up and Shahid Khan an even richer man brought them, huge beneficiaries given a combination of Parachute system, wealthy owner and higher PL Loss Limits. Edited February 12 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Interestingly, Matt Slater suggests that West Brom are on course for a £35m loss this season. That is somewhat aligned to my figures post Parachute Payments. Worth noting that they made a £5m Pre Tax Profit first year down despite and inclusive of a) Year 1 Parachute Payments and b) £16m in Player Transfer Profits. This was obviously before the debt Impairment whereby Lai and or Peace owed them money. Otoh Amortisation down, wages surely down to some extent, obviously sacking Ismael and hiring Bruce adds a bit to the cost base. £35m seems within a reasonable Ball Park though. Hit by not getting 3rd year PPs? So, revenue down £35m! Negligible Transfer profit! Small reduction in costs in the grand scheme of things! Yep, can see why suddenly talking of a loss of that magnitude. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 12 Author Report Share Posted February 12 25 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Hit by not getting 3rd year PPs? So, revenue down £35m! Negligible Transfer profit! Small reduction in costs in the grand scheme of things! Yep, can see why suddenly talking of a loss of that magnitude. That's roughly my thinking too. I reckoned £35-40m fall in income from then to now. The Transfer Profit this year will be a couple of million tops. Few million at most. The MSD loans as well were in late 2022..they should add an Interest Cost that wasn't there before. To last season and even more so to this. I'd predict a moderate loss for last season. No issues to the current season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 On 09/02/2024 at 00:02, Mr Popodopolous said: https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-leeds-united-ready-to-take-legal-action-against-nottingham-forest/ In layman's, TLDR if Nottingham Forest found in breach of Upper Loss limit, Leeds will be considering legal action. is to be expected, any club affected are missing a cash grab if they don't. I can't blame any club going for it. I reckon they get settled for way less than the figures they will ask for or the articles will throw around. tho, but as a club you have to take each instance to court as there is precedent of being awarded money but would be interesting to see how things panned out if someone wouldn't settle and they went for full loss of premier league revenue and what happens if appealed too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Fulham fan moaning about FFP which I found when Twitter searching WBA FFP is quite funny given how Al-Fayed pre FFP days pumped them up and Shahid Khan an even richer man brought them, huge beneficiaries given a combination of Parachute system, wealthy owner and higher PL Loss Limits. i mean if there was no ffp then there is no issues to answer. clubs need to answer to the league not other clubs fans, worst defence you can ever have is "well about them?" love to see someone use that as a defence in these cases imagine killing someone then saying what about OJ! can be funny to see over reactions from fans who don't know the ins and outs but their thoughts unless backed up with numbers are useless, must admit I love the over reactions, many a time ive got back in the car from the boro matches when we done gash and looked forward to putting the radio on to hear the doom and gloom fans phone in and go mad Edited February 12 by Rob26 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 12 Author Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Rob26 said: is to be expected, any club affected are missing a cash grab if they don't. I can't blame any club going for it. I reckon they get settled for way less than the figures they will ask for or the articles will throw around. tho, but as a club you have to take each instance to court as there is precedent of being awarded money but would be interesting to see how things panned out if someone wouldn't settle and they went for full loss of premier league revenue and what happens if appealed too. I would say a starting point is.. PL Central Awards + Prize money (£2-2.5m per Place isn't it) - Parachute Payments and EFL award. You're easily looking at £60-65m there. This is more for Leicester who were the closest. Then more indirect but harder to prove losses ie Commercial Revenue (absent specific clauses based on division etc), then more remote still and incredibly difficult to prove at best such as transfer value obtained vs notional of what could have been obtained if staying up, the £22m gap between PL FFP and Championship FFP...could even that be a factor? By which I mean, Relegation caused by this rule breach by the club(s) made us take these Commercial decisions to our detriment in order to comply. Otoh you have wage reductions that only kick in if relegated. Could that offset some of the argument. Net v Gross in other words. Edited February 12 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Good morning everyone. I was led here from Loft for Words, a QPR forum and was pleasantly surprised to see an intelligent and informed thread on FFP covering all Championship clubs. I write an annual piece for LFW after the accounts are published, this was the last one. On the edge of the precipice — Column - Queens Park Rangers News | Loft For Words (fansnetwork.co.uk) Bristol City is a club that often gets mentioned on LFW as a club that could be close to breaching FFP, how do you guys see where they sit? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, SimonD said: Good morning everyone. I was led here from Loft for Words, a QPR forum and was pleasantly surprised to see an intelligent and informed thread on FFP covering all Championship clubs. I write an annual piece for LFW after the accounts are published, this was the last one. On the edge of the precipice — Column - Queens Park Rangers News | Loft For Words (fansnetwork.co.uk) Bristol City is a club that often gets mentioned on LFW as a club that could be close to breaching FFP, how do you guys see where they sit? We’ve had our issues because of covid and shit recruitment (at times) under the previous regime, but we steadied the ship, sold Semenyo last Jan for £9m and Scott this summer for £20m. We don’t have to worry about FFP for a season or two. We can now go into windows on the front-foot, not needing to sell to buy. Re LFW, I’ll be writing the City preview for Clive for this Saturday’s game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 30 minutes ago, Davefevs said: We’ve had our issues because of covid and shit recruitment (at times) under the previous regime, but we steadied the ship, sold Semenyo last Jan for £9m and Scott this summer for £20m. We don’t have to worry about FFP for a season or two. We can now go into windows on the front-foot, not needing to sell to buy. Re LFW, I’ll be writing the City preview for Clive for this Saturday’s game. We've all suffered from poor recruitment. Our bigger problem though is the owners getting too excited by the prospect of promotion and over spending in an attempt to achieve it. We are really suffering this season because of it. It will be a minor miracle if we can cut our losses by the required £10m and stay in this division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 3 hours ago, SimonD said: Good morning everyone. I was led here from Loft for Words, a QPR forum and was pleasantly surprised to see an intelligent and informed thread on FFP covering all Championship clubs. I write an annual piece for LFW after the accounts are published, this was the last one. On the edge of the precipice — Column - Queens Park Rangers News | Loft For Words (fansnetwork.co.uk) Bristol City is a club that often gets mentioned on LFW as a club that could be close to breaching FFP, how do you guys see where they sit? Good morning and welcome. Do periodically read the articles on LFW- finance and sometimes in general. Good site. What Dave said, 18 months of austerity in the market, perhaps it even begun in January 2021 on a low level, by which I mean cutbacks and restraint plus the Semenyo and Scott sales have helped us and we are now fine it seems. We appear to have been planning for both systems ie the eventual 70% turnover one and P&S. Was a close run thing for us for a while, possibly we overcorrected a little in some ways. We didn't spend a fee between January 2022 and late January 2023. We also refrained from signing a PL loanees from January 2021 to summer 2024..Scott Twine the first since Summer 2020. Think the 3 of 4 Windows is from January 2021 to Summer 2022 no fee was laid out and the same in January 2023 until Semenyo left..drastic steps were taken. The wage bill is probably on the football side 2/3 of what it was at its peak and the amortisation has also been reduced drastically. Albeit the hole was big. QPR. I'm interested in the clawing back of the -£10m hole..the sales don't seem to have been huge yes Dieng and Dickie (thank you, he has been great) and loan or free signings from PL clubs have continued at a steady pace since 2022. £10m in one year as a net figure is a big hole given that the Fixed Asset loophole has gone. Compensation IN for Beale but presumably to Critchley for the sack, to Wycombe for Ainsworth then to Ainsworth for the sack then possibly but I don't know for sure, Cifuentes and his Swedish club. I also have a certain interest from a 3 year loss angle in Birmingham, Cardiff, Leicester. The former have what appears to be an inflated Naming Rights Sponsorship, the 2nd have some sort of Sala (RIP) compensation and the latter could sign nobody in Janaury without sales. £83m plus Allowables to this year..hmm. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 On a side note, a lot of clubs are well and truly dragging their feet when it comes to releasing their accounts, in the PL ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) PL and probably EFL receive data sooner but top two divisions to release so far.. PL Luton Man City Man United (only via NYSE dragged out of them). Newcastle West Ham Championship Birmingham (only by dint of HKSE) Blackburn (Well 9 months of 1 and 3 of the other as Venkys London Limited). Bristol City Hull Middlesbrough Norwich Plymouth Preston Stoke Watford 15/44 and then of those 2 were to meet Foreign Stock Exchange deadlines, and 1 was due to the Venkys London Limited 9 and 3 scenario. Clubs recently relegated to League 1 ie the last 2 seasons, Barnsley, Blackpool, Derby, Peterborough, Reading, Wigan also have chosen not to release yet. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Good morning and welcome. Do periodically read the articles on LFW- finance and sometimes in general. Good site. What Dave said, 18 months of austerity in the market, perhaps it even begun in January 2021 on a low level, by which I mean cutbacks and restraint plus the Semenyo and Scott sales have helped us and we are now fine it seems. We appear to have been planning for both systems ie the eventual 70% turnover one and P&S. Was a close run thing for us for a while, possibly we overcorrected a little in some ways. We didn't spend a fee between January 2022 and late January 2023. We also refrained from signing a PL loanees from January 2021 to summer 2024..Scott Twine the first since Summer 2020. Think the 3 of 4 Windows is from January 2021 to Summer 2022 no fee was laid out and the same in January 2023 until Semenyo left..drastic steps were taken. The wage bill is probably on the football side 2/3 of what it was at its peak and the amortisation has also been reduced drastically. Albeit the hole was big. QPR. I'm interested in the clawing back of the -£10m hole..the sales don't seem to have been huge yes Dieng and Dickie (thank you, he has been great) and loan or free signings from PL clubs have continued at a steady pace since 2022. £10m in one year as a net figure is a big hole given that the Fixed Asset loophole has gone. Compensation IN for Beale but presumably to Critchley for the sack, to Wycombe for Ainsworth then to Ainsworth for the sack then possibly but I don't know for sure, Cifuentes and his Swedish club. I also have a certain interest from a 3 year loss angle in Birmingham, Cardiff, Leicester. The former have what appears to be an inflated Naming Rights Sponsorship, the 2nd have some sort of Sala (RIP) compensation and the latter could sign nobody in Janaury without sales. £83m plus Allowables to this year..hmm. Thanks for the low down on Bristol City. The £10 million hole. We should have made sales the summer before last, but they were so determined to get Beale in as manager that they let him dictate who left. Last season's managerial change (Beale out, Critchley out and Ainsworth in) was hopefully neutral. We also "earned" around 1/2 million compensation from Chair and Dieng being at the World Cup. Not taking up the option on Charlie Austin's contract made a very decent saving. This season, Cifuentes was end of contract in Sweden. We'd tried to get him last season, but couldn't afford the buyout. The generally accepted amounts are £2m for Dieng and £700k for Dickie. (He had started well for us, but we'd broken him. He definitely needed a fresh start) We've gone to town with naming rights this season. Stadium, Away Stand, South Africa Road Stand and training ground have all been "claimed". The majority of the rest will be through payroll which has left us very weak, but the activity towards the end of the January window do suggest we made it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SimonD said: Thanks for the low down on Bristol City. The £10 million hole. We should have made sales the summer before last, but they were so determined to get Beale in as manager that they let him dictate who left. Last season's managerial change (Beale out, Critchley out and Ainsworth in) was hopefully neutral. We also "earned" around 1/2 million compensation from Chair and Dieng being at the World Cup. Not taking up the option on Charlie Austin's contract made a very decent saving. This season, Cifuentes was end of contract in Sweden. We'd tried to get him last season, but couldn't afford the buyout. The generally accepted amounts are £2m for Dieng and £700k for Dickie. (He had started well for us, but we'd broken him. He definitely needed a fresh start) We've gone to town with naming rights this season. Stadium, Away Stand, South Africa Road Stand and training ground have all been "claimed". The majority of the rest will be through payroll which has left us very weak, but the activity towards the end of the January window do suggest we made it. Thanks for the lowdown on QPR. I will return in more depth but it seems to me that a number of clubs may have been granted more leeway than we were. I am in a minority view on this forum but how much did Dieng go for, £2m? Dickie Fee Minus Book Value. I read he joined for £1.8m on a 3 year deal. I appreciate Naming Rights and other such matters, but the churn in managers can also cost..Austin and Johansen were high earners I assume, no longer there granted..All helps. PL loanees are often not cheap. QPR added 2, plus Begovic, Cook and Colback all from PL clubs. Stoke I have a huge issue with due to Covid add-backs. For me, if a club struggles to sell players for the pre-requisite fees in the relevant Period and runs aground. Tough luck, it's on them. We raised £30-35m from 2 Academy Products. QPR through sales have raised what £3-4m? Less any remaining Book Value. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) Then you have Cardiff, no major sales since 2021-22, Moore and even that was well under £10m. Your naming rights as reported for the stadium were not all that high. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) PPS, the £10m hole I assume to be a net figure. As in £10m hole before summer activity. Adding: Summer Begovic (Free) (Everton) Cook (Free) (Nottingham Forest) Colback (Free) (Nottingham Forest) Richards (Loan to Perm) (Brighton) Then Cannon on a free in Autumn January: Hayden (Loan) (Newcastle) Hodge (Loan) (Wolves) Plus Andersen (Free) and the striker whose name escapes me. Plus Ainsworth- Sack, some level of compensation due. Cifuenfes- In Austerity?? Maybe the payroll has fallen drastically but tbh I'd be sceptical about that. How do you square that circle @SimonD that £10m is a Net figure. The Fixed Asset loophole has gone, when you factor in all of the replacements/Additions. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) See when you compare it to our issues for 18 months and the fact QPR have an undoubtedly lower income then some of this just doesn't stack. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 46 minutes ago, SimonD said: Thanks for the low down on Bristol City. The £10 million hole. We should have made sales the summer before last, but they were so determined to get Beale in as manager that they let him dictate who left. Last season's managerial change (Beale out, Critchley out and Ainsworth in) was hopefully neutral. We also "earned" around 1/2 million compensation from Chair and Dieng being at the World Cup. Not taking up the option on Charlie Austin's contract made a very decent saving. This season, Cifuentes was end of contract in Sweden. We'd tried to get him last season, but couldn't afford the buyout. The generally accepted amounts are £2m for Dieng and £700k for Dickie. (He had started well for us, but we'd broken him. He definitely needed a fresh start) We've gone to town with naming rights this season. Stadium, Away Stand, South Africa Road Stand and training ground have all been "claimed". The majority of the rest will be through payroll which has left us very weak, but the activity towards the end of the January window do suggest we made it. Yet you passed up the chance to keep Chris Martin, now leading Bristol Rovers to a glorious promotion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: PPS, the £10m hole I assume to be a net figure. As in £10m hole before summer activity. Adding: Summer Begovic (Free) (Everton) Cook (Free) (Nottingham Forest) Colback (Free) (Nottingham Forest) Richards (Loan to Perm) (Brighton) Then Cannon on a free in Autumn January: Hayden (Loan) (Newcastle) Hodge (Loan) (Wolves) Plus Andersen (Free) and the striker whose name escapes me. Plus Ainsworth- Sack, some level of compensation due. Cifuenfes- In Austerity?? Maybe the payroll has fallen drastically but tbh I'd be sceptical about that. How do you square that circle @SimonD that £10m is a Net figure. The Fixed Asset loophole has gone, when you factor in all of the replacements/Additions. I haven't got time to do that now, but will get back to you later or tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 9 minutes ago, SimonD said: I haven't got time to do that now, but will get back to you later or tomorrow. Fair, and thanks. My suspicions are with the authorities given the harsh conditions that we were under. I'm most anxious to see that all clubs are under the same. Unless your club are paying some to player, some as disguised remuneration to wives etc it doesn't stack. Edited February 13 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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