The pyschology of achieving confidence at Home.

[southvillekiddy]

Big question : Is there something about all of us that has to change if we are to reach the foot-balling heights?

Brilliant, brilliant couple of Away wins from City. Heartiest congratulations to the Coaching staff and players. Shows the potential in us. If only we could do that consistently at Home we would looking at automatic promotion.

It's always been my impression that we play with more freedom Away, (the most glorious example for me is the 0 - 6 at Bradford City when we became League 1 Champions) whereas at Ashton Gate in League games the vibe is too often "Let's make sure we don't lose" (for the gathered faithful). As a result the team clams up. The Bristolian joy at the possibility of mass group moaning is a major factor in all of this and there is a latent surrounding atmosphere which may help account for the dismal results this season against Ipswich and others who are well below us in the table.

So I ask,  aside from the ethos undergoing a massive change (which I can only see happening if we don't lose at Home for a few seasons) what can the staff do to overcome the problem?

I dunno :

'Lads, last season you beat Man Utd here in the Cup for ****'s sake and you've just beaten 2 of the top teams Away so my the **** don't you/we  .................................... ???????????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

Championship Table

				Home						Away						Overall
	Team	P		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		GD	PTS
1	Norwich City	39		13	2	4	41	29		11	7	2	37	19		24	9	6	78	48		30	81
2	Leeds United	39		13	3	4	35	18		10	4	5	31	23		23	7	9	66	41		25	76
3	Sheffield United	39		13	3	4	37	16		9	5	5	29	21		22	8	9	66	37		29	74
4	West Bromwich Albion	39		9	7	4	44	27		11	3	5	31	23		20	10	9	75	50		25	70
5	Bristol City	38		7	6	6	22	19		10	4	5	27	21		17	10	11	49	40		9	61
6	Aston Villa	39		9	8	3	46	33		6	7	6	24	22		15	15	9	70	55		15	60
7

 

[EmissionImpossible]

Probably one of the most unreadable posts I’ve ever seen on OTIB

[southvillekiddy]

2 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Probably one of the most unreadable posts I’ve ever seen on OTIB

Wonderful response. Have another go mate.

[EmissionImpossible]

3 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Wonderful response. Have another go mate.

 

[MarcusX]

No doubt some idiots will still see fit to boo if we happen to be losing at half time.

IMO the atmosphere is the sole reason for our poor performances at home. Commentators and pundits have often noted it and it cannot do the players any good. 15 games unbeaten followed by a decent performance at Norwich despite the result and we boo after losing 2-1 to Birmingham.

I've said it before, in the GJ years the atmosphere was brilliant most of the time. The east end didnt shut up for 90 minutes, and if we went a goal behind the whole ground erupted with noise to cheer the boys on.

I don't know why it's different with LJ? Do we just not expect to turn it around when we go behind?

[spudski]

There is apathy at home. You can feel it.

Dare I say it's just too comfortable?

It's so comfortable, it's like going to the cinema.

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

I think it's hard to create both.

Said before...section 82 is a good idea in principle...but it, imo, has a negative effect on the 'support'.

Fans sublimely accept that's where you need to go if you want to sing or chant...so they don't bother in other parts of the ground.

I've seen individuals try to start something, even a small group, but no one will join in, so they shut up.

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

[phantom]

31 minutes ago, spudski said:

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

Spot on, and the club can't really have both - it isn't unique to us, maybe we are all spoilt by having such a great stadium?

[Mr Popodopolous]

45 minutes ago, spudski said:

There is apathy at home. You can feel it.

Dare I say it's just too comfortable?

It's so comfortable, it's like going to the cinema.

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

I think it's hard to create both.

Said before...section 82 is a good idea in principle...but it, imo, has a negative effect on the 'support'.

 Fans sublimely accept that's where you need to go if you want to sing or chant...so they don't bother in other parts of the ground.

I've seen individuals try to start something, even a small group, but no one will join in, so they shut up.

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

 Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

It can get going well though even when behind- Norwich at home was a good night I thought, under the lights at 5.30pm a game in which we were not rated to have much chance, rain- all ideal ingredients for a good atmosphere.

QPR 2nd half was a superb atmosphere, the last game in that winning streak I think.

These though are exceptions. Agree with the bulk of your post- whole South Stand as singing and standing would be a huge boost.

[TonyTonyTony]

Most of the time this year we have played one up front at home. That doesn’t really allow you to dominate and that frustrates.

Hopefully 2 up front on Saturday and get on the front foot. All will be fine

[Mr Popodopolous]

38 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Most of the time this year we have played one up front at home. That doesn’t really allow you to dominate and that frustrates.

Hopefully 2 up front on Saturday and get on the front foot. All will be fine

Leeds and Norwich plus in UK and Europe a host of top sides would disagree tbh...4-4-2 can be a counterattacking, reactive formation these days and '1' up front if support and movement in and around can be extremely positive. In 2019 at decent levels, it is or can be a bit of a fallacy.

That said, Weimann if he is fit and Taylor if Weimann cannot make it, in this 3-5-2? I hope so!

[KingLear]

57 minutes ago, spudski said:

There is apathy at home. You can feel it.

Dare I say it's just too comfortable?

It's so comfortable, it's like going to the cinema.

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

I think it's hard to create both.

Said before...section 82 is a good idea in principle...but it, imo, has a negative effect on the 'support'.

Fans sublimely accept that's where you need to go if you want to sing or chant...so they don't bother in other parts of the ground.

I've seen individuals try to start something, even a small group, but no one will join in, so they shut up.

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

Have to say I agree with this, 100%. I don't get to Ashton Gate as often as I used to, but it is very different these days than the GJ days for example.

Now don't get me wrong, Section 82 do a marvelous job and a lot of hard work goes into it which i'm sure we all appreciate, fans and players alike.

But it is very noticeable that people are reluctant to sing or chant because they're not in the right section of the ground for that. 

Whenever I go to a game now I always try to get a ticket as close to the 'singing section' as I can for the reason that I like to get involved, because I feel like other areas of the ground won't be singing, rightly or wrongly, psychologically that's how it is and i'm sure that's how it is for fans in other areas of the ground too.

[southvillekiddy]

1 hour ago, EmissionImpossible said:

 

even better. Thankyou. Grammatically and numerically challenged

[southvillekiddy]

1 hour ago, EmissionImpossible said:

 

even better. Thankyou. Grammatically and numerically challenged. By the way, it seems like the people who have posted understand my original point.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

There is apathy at home. You can feel it.

Dare I say it's just too comfortable?

It's so comfortable, it's like going to the cinema.

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

I think it's hard to create both.

Said before...section 82 is a good idea in principle...but it, imo, has a negative effect on the 'support'.

Fans sublimely accept that's where you need to go if you want to sing or chant...so they don't bother in other parts of the ground.

I've seen individuals try to start something, even a small group, but no one will join in, so they shut up.

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

So do you genuinely believe that we, the supporters are to blame for our dismal home form?

What a load of nonsense. Negative, defensive tactics, games when we manage only one or two attempts on target!

The Head Coach, who at present with lots of away wins, can do no wrong. The home tactics appear very similar to me to those used by his father. Play keep ball in our own half for forty five minutes. Then if we haven't conceded, try to sneak a goal with our only effort on target.

If we're losing at half time, more negative stuff to ensure we don't go 0-2 down, followed by twenty minutes of all out attack to get equaliser/winner.

And that is our, the supporters, fault?

Spudski, for an intelligent person, you spout some real rubbish at times.

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, EmissionImpossible said:

 

Exactly what I saw at first , turned my phone and

[spudski]

19 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

So do you genuinely believe that we, the supporters are to blame for our dismal home form?

What a load of nonsense. Negative, defensive tactics, games when we manage only one or two attempts on target!

The Head Coach, who at present with lots of away wins, can do no wrong. The home tactics appear very similar to me to those used by his father. Play keep ball in our own half for forty five minutes. Then if we haven't conceded, try to sneak a goal with our only effort on target.

If we're losing at half time, more negative stuff to ensure we don't go 0-2 down, followed by twenty minutes of all out attack to get equaliser/winner.

And that is our, the supporters, fault?

Spudski, for an intelligent person, you spout some real rubbish at times.

I was replying to the post directly above mine...thanks for the kind words though

[southvillekiddy]

Championship Table

				Home						Away						Overall
	Team	P		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		GD	PTS
1	Norwich City	39		13	2	4	41	29		11	7	2	37	19		24	9	6	78	48		30	81
2	Leeds United	39		13	3	4	35	18		10	4	5	31	23		23	7	9	66	41		25	76
3	Sheffield United	39		13	3	4	37	16		9	5	5	29	21		22	8	9	66	37		29	74
4	West Bromwich Albion	39		9	7	4	44	27		11	3	5	31	23		20	10	9	75	50		25	70
5	Bristol City	38		7	6	6	22	19		10	4	5	27	21		17	10	11	49	40		9	61
6	Aston Villa	39		9	8	3	46	33		6	7	6	24	22		15	15	9	70	55		15	60
7

 

Worst home record of the top 6.

Away form is 7 points better and almost identical to Leeds.

If say we had won 3 more outright at Home and turned 3 of our Home draws into wins we would have 76 points and clear 3rd place.

Apart from the unencouraging atmosphere at Ashton Gate, we have to ask why we start so slowly and play so conservatively at Home. Does it come from fear?

If we have a sports pyschologist (?) shouldn't he/she be saying (even more forcibly) "Right lads let's play as if we are Away and going for it against a top team, try and refresh that thought every 5 minutes" Surely some imaginative approach like this could be tried to break the cycle?

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

There is apathy at home. You can feel it.

Dare I say it's just too comfortable?

It's so comfortable, it's like going to the cinema.

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

I think it's hard to create both.

Said before...section 82 is a good idea in principle...but it, imo, has a negative effect on the 'support'.

Fans sublimely accept that's where you need to go if you want to sing or chant...so they don't bother in other parts of the ground.

I've seen individuals try to start something, even a small group, but no one will join in, so they shut up.

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

We generate a far better atmosphere when we are the underdogs in a game. It will be better Tuesday than Saturday I am sure. 

Personally it would be good for a couple of players to produce their away performances at home, Famara for example. I would love to see him win a certain section of the crowd over with a Sheff Utd style performance.

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

We generate a far better atmosphere when we are the underdogs in a game. It will be better Tuesday than Saturday I am sure. 

Personally it would be good for a couple of players to produce their away performances at home, Famara for example. I would love to see him win a certain section of the crowd over with a Sheff Utd style performance.

I also don't think it helps with the atmosphere when the players head directly towards s82 to celebrate or thank.

Bit of a catch 22 though.

As for performances...who knows why...it's an odd one.

[Pezo]

I think atmosphere is a big one, but I believe atmosphere is due to an aging fan base that simply don't want to sing, don't get me wrong they are mostly supportive but they don't quite get excited the way they used to. 

[McNasty Filth]

3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

IMO the atmosphere is the sole reason for our poor performances at home.

What an absolute plum

[EmissionImpossible]

2 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

even better. Thankyou. Grammatically and numerically challenged

[ralphindevon]

You have to remember it's not just down to us how we play at home, most clubs visit the Gate knowing if they play attacking football they are playing into our hands. 

Blackburn for instance came, attacked and got well beaten.

Leeds, came, closed us down, bullied us and went home with a 1 goal win

[hantsred]

If you look at the number of home goals in the 'for' column we are way way behind our peers and yet pretty much even for the equivalent away. For me we have to go for it far more at home and throw caution to the win and I believe the atmosphere would naturally respond and improve for the last 4 home games. 

[Lew-T]

Far too often at home this season the players have come out and it’s been awfully flat. Too many safe passes, no real urge to create and hurt the opposition in danger areas.

That then sets the atmosphere around the ground which it has been, apart from Swansea and QPR off the top of my head.

[MarcusX]

48 minutes ago, jaydee=inspiration said:

What an absolute plum

Maybe “sole” reason was incorrect but main reason. There’s nerves in the air, the commentators sense it and mention it! Add to that the booing that immediately followed a 15 game unbeaten streak and you don’t think that puts unnecessary pressure on the team?

[Davefevs]

The pitch is too narrow! 

[Bristol Oil Services]

Park life!

[CyderInACan]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The pitch is too narrow! 

The double touchline in front of the Dolman doesn't help!

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Maybe “sole” reason was incorrect but main reason. There’s nerves in the air, the commentators sense it and mention it! Add to that the booing that immediately followed a 15 game unbeaten streak and you don’t think that puts unnecessary pressure on the team?

How do you hear ‘commentators’ when at a home game?! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Lew-T said:

Far too often at home this season the players have come out and it’s been awfully flat. Too many safe passes, no real urge to create and hurt the opposition in danger areas.

That then sets the atmosphere around the ground which it has been, apart from Swansea and QPR off the top of my head.

Norwich was quite decent too IMO.

Performance and result good- atmosphere too!

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, hantsred said:

If you look at the number of home goals in the 'for' column we are way way behind our peers and yet pretty much even for the equivalent away. For me we have to go for it far more at home and throw caution to the win and I believe the atmosphere would naturally respond and improve for the last 4 home games. 

2 goals disallowed on questionable grounds, plus I believe 11 separate occasions hitting woodwork at home?

I think we have created a bit more at home over the season than the goals per game would indicate.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, ralphindevon said:

You have to remember it's not just down to us how we play at home, most clubs visit the Gate knowing if they play attacking football they are playing into our hands. 

Blackburn for instance came, attacked and got well beaten.

Leeds, came, closed us down, bullied us and went home with a 1 goal win

I think it is true to a point but not all.

Off top of head, only sides who truly came to all out stifle were Bolton and Millwall perhaps. Rotherham when down to 10 and were QPR quite negative? Think they were.

We do play better v better sides, but your recollection of Leeds game? They outplayed, out passed, out fought and out thought us first half especially- and shut the game down in 2nd while still posing a threat on the break.

Could you list the sides who came to park the bus in your view?

[SedRA]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

There is apathy at home. You can feel it.

Dare I say it's just too comfortable?

It's so comfortable, it's like going to the cinema.

The Club want a family atmosphere.

But also 'support'.

I think it's hard to create both.

Said before...section 82 is a good idea in principle...but it, imo, has a negative effect on the 'support'.

Fans sublimely accept that's where you need to go if you want to sing or chant...so they don't bother in other parts of the ground.

I've seen individuals try to start something, even a small group, but no one will join in, so they shut up.

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

I was at Anfield a few weeks ago for the 5-0 Watford game. Obviously they are vying for the premier league title but the atmosphere around the stadium/club was so noticeably different to anything I’ve experienced at Ashton Gate. You can feel that the club and it’s success is so important to the fans and the people of the city - it’s everything to them - life and death almost. You don’t get that here, I’m sure for a lot of reasons, including the lack of success comparatively and the profile of Liverpool on the world stage etc 

Also, the way a song could start anywhere within the ground and within a few seconds the whole 50k + were signing it loud. You can obviously tell Klopp has had a big role in generating a feeling of love between the players and fans, and tbf it’s a lot easier to love your players when they’re as good as Salah, Mane, VVD etc but it was such a feeling of everyone being there to get behind them and create the win together. 

[hantsred]

25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

2 goals disallowed on questionable grounds, plus I believe 11 separate occasions hitting woodwork at home?

I think we have created a bit more at home over the season than the goals per game would indicate.

True that is only one basic measure of attacking intent and maybe a better comparison would be shots on goal per game at home showing that perhaps we are just very wasteful. However almost half as many goals scored at home certainly doesn't compare well with those around us. 

[hantsred]

16 minutes ago, hantsred said:

True that is only one basic measure of attacking intent and maybe a better comparison would be shots on goal per game at home showing that perhaps we are just very wasteful. However almost half as many goals scored at home certainly doesn't compare well with those around us. 

to answer my own question we are =12th in the "shots per game" at home with an average of 13.63 (and 4th place away!) so actually not so bad when compared to looking at just goals scored where we are 19th in the goals scored at home table. 

http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_shots

[Bar BS3]

5 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Championship Table

				Home						Away						Overall
	Team	P		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		GD	PTS
1	Norwich City	39		13	2	4	41	29		11	7	2	37	19		24	9	6	78	48		30	81
2	Leeds United	39		13	3	4	35	18		10	4	5	31	23		23	7	9	66	41		25	76
3	Sheffield United	39		13	3	4	37	16		9	5	5	29	21		22	8	9	66	37		29	74
4	West Bromwich Albion	39		9	7	4	44	27		11	3	5	31	23		20	10	9	75	50		25	70
5	Bristol City	38		7	6	6	22	19		10	4	5	27	21		17	10	11	49	40		9	61
6	Aston Villa	39		9	8	3	46	33		6	7	6	24	22		15	15	9	70	55		15	60
7

 

Worst home record of the top 6.

Away form is 7 points better and almost identical to Leeds.

If say we had won 3 more outright at Home and turned 3 of our Home draws into wins we would have 76 points and clear 3rd place.

Apart from the unencouraging atmosphere at Ashton Gate, we have to ask why we start so slowly and play so conservatively at Home. Does it come from fear?

If we have a sports pyschologist (?) shouldn't he/she be saying (even more forcibly) "Right lads let's play as if we are Away and going for it against a top team, try and refresh that thought every 5 minutes" Surely some imaginative approach like this could be tried to break the cycle?

Brilliant..! It’s sounds like you’ve sussed it all out anyway. 

All we need to do is win more games that we have lost and then win more games than we’ve drawn, and the jobs a good ‘un. 

I’ve always been very positive in my support of LJ, but you’ve changed my mind. If he can’t work this formula out for himself and employ someone to convey the message “play better and win more” then I don’t know what he’s doing in his job...!

EDIT: oh, hang on... what if every other club win games they’d lost & drawn and their manager told them to play better. That would throw a spanner in the works..!

[SedRA]

5 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Championship Table

				Home						Away						Overall
	Team	P		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		W	D	L	F	A		GD	PTS
1	Norwich City	39		13	2	4	41	29		11	7	2	37	19		24	9	6	78	48		30	81
2	Leeds United	39		13	3	4	35	18		10	4	5	31	23		23	7	9	66	41		25	76
3	Sheffield United	39		13	3	4	37	16		9	5	5	29	21		22	8	9	66	37		29	74
4	West Bromwich Albion	39		9	7	4	44	27		11	3	5	31	23		20	10	9	75	50		25	70
5	Bristol City	38		7	6	6	22	19		10	4	5	27	21		17	10	11	49	40		9	61
6	Aston Villa	39		9	8	3	46	33		6	7	6	24	22		15	15	9	70	55		15	60

Worst home record of the top 6.

Away form is 7 points better and almost identical to Leeds.

If say we had won 3 more outright at Home and turned 3 of our Home draws into wins we would have 76 points and clear 3rd place.

Apart from the unencouraging atmosphere at Ashton Gate, we have to ask why we start so slowly and play so conservatively at Home. Does it come from fear?

If we have a sports pyschologist (?) shouldn't he/she be saying (even more forcibly) "Right lads let's play as if we are Away and going for it against a top team, try and refresh that thought every 5 minutes" Surely some imaginative approach like this could be tried to break the cycle?

I think LJ has been alluding in recent interviews that there may be a lack of confidence from the players to go out and play on the front foot, particularly at home.

I’m sure they are working with ways to help create that confidence like you mention but unfortunately psychology isn’t quite as simple as repeating a phrase to yourself every 5 mins. If it was that simple then everyone would do it.

There are numerous layers of neurological, biological and physiological factors at play when it comes to things such as confidence, particularly in such an intense public environment as professional football. And that’s before you even talk about the more classical elements of the psyche that most people think of when you talk about psychology - meaning making, personal narrative, ego etc. These things are deeply engrained and apart from a few unique examples (Federer, Ronaldo etc) most athletes are probably, to a large degree, at the mercy of whatever psychological make up they’ve been dealt and the ebb and flow of confidence that comes with your recent performances  

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

How do you hear ‘commentators’ when at a home game?! 

By sitting 5 seats away from the BCTV guys 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

By sitting 5 seats away from the BCTV guys 

Shows how poor our home atmosphere is then ..... if you can hear what someone is saying 5 seats away?! Wow! We really are a library.....

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Shows how poor our home atmosphere is then ..... if you can hear what someone is saying 5 seats away?! Wow! We really are a library.....

Shhhhh

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Shows how poor our home atmosphere is then ..... if you can hear what someone is saying 5 seats away?! Wow! We really are a library.....

Blame all seater stadiums........

[Cowshed]

54 minutes ago, RedSA said:

I think LJ has been alluding in recent interviews that there may be a lack of confidence from the players to go out and play on the front foot, particularly at home.

I’m sure they are working with ways to help create that confidence like you mention but unfortunately psychology isn’t quite as simple as repeating a phrase to yourself every 5 mins. If it was that simple then everyone would do it.

There are numerous layers of neurological, biological and physiological factors at play when it comes to things such as confidence, particularly in such an intense public environment as professional football. And that’s before you even talk about the more classical elements of the psyche that most people think of when you talk about psychology - meaning making, personal narrative, ego etc. These things are deeply engrained and apart from a few unique examples (Federer, Ronaldo etc) most athletes are probably, to a large degree, at the mercy of whatever psychological make up they’ve been dealt and the ebb and flow of confidence that comes with your recent performances  

 

That is not true if we do not wish it to be. We have the ability to affect our own psychological make up. We have a built in negative bias but we can affect it.

Your statement demonstrates a fixed mindset v a growth mindset. A growth mindset would not accept that statement as a choice v I can be more, and will. 

[Bar BS3]

10 hours ago, Robbored said:

Blame all seater stadiums........

And people who ridicule suggestions for chants..?!

[Bar BS3]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

That is not true if we do not wish it to be. We have the ability to affect our own psychological make up. We have a built in negative bias but we can affect it.

Your statement demonstrates a fixed mindset v a growth mindset. A growth mindset would not accept that statement as a choice v I can be more, and will. 

I think to stand any chance as as pro footballer, they already have this mindset. That doesn’t make it any easier/more simple to rectify when confidence is lowered. 

I think the most simplistic relative to mind set is focusing on “enjoying” yourself. 

If you go into any task and enjoy it, you are more prone to be relaxed, less likely to make errors and feel less pressure. 

Of course, that can’t foresake the tactical and discipline aspects that are needed for success, but there is a lot more sense to the well used cliche “just go out and enjoy & express yourself) that just words. 

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

And people who ridicule suggestions for chants..?!

My ridicule is not aimed at chants per se but at numerous attempts on here to ‘compose’  songs/chants- you know, the ones we never hear at AG.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I think to stand any chance as as pro footballer, they already have this mindset. That doesn’t make it any easier/more simple to rectify when confidence is lowered. 

I think the most simplistic relative to mind set is focusing on “enjoying” yourself. 

If you go into any task and enjoy it, you are more prone to be relaxed, less likely to make errors and feel less pressure. 

Of course, that can’t foresake the tactical and discipline aspects that are needed for success, but there is a lot more sense to the well used cliche “just go out and enjoy & express yourself) that just words. 

Some footballers are racked by nerves and a lack of confidence. We are all different. But these differences can be governed by having tool kits of different psychological exercises. Coaches … The modern ones now use thoroughly Sport psychologists, City use a man called Bill Beswick. Psychology is part of FA coaching modules. 

Telling yourself to enjoy it v its going to be a fearful experience works. We can fill our body with performance enhancing hormones by positive thought as well as negative ones that inhibit performance. Thinking I am a good player, I have trained well, I deserve to be in this team, I am fit, I have eaten healthily, I know what I am doing (tactical) feeds confidence. Its a choice. 

 

[SedRA]

10 hours ago, Cowshed said:

That is not true if we do not wish it to be. We have the ability to affect our own psychological make up. We have a built in negative bias but we can affect it.

Your statement demonstrates a fixed mindset v a growth mindset. A growth mindset would not accept that statement as a choice v I can be more, and will. 

Funnily enough I’ve worked with growth mindset/neuroplasticity processes in various capacities for 14 years alongside depth and transpersonal psychology. You are right you can affect your psychological make up to varying degrees dependent on a number of factors, and theoretically anyone could ‘rewire their brain’ to resolve a wide range of congnitive issues. 

However, in reality (and this was more the point of my response to the post I quoted) it takes a great deal of work and commitment to truly get to the deeper levels of the psyche that are governing the conscious mind. That is not having a fixed mindset, that is understanding the reality of the task at hand in transforming the mind. 

You can definitely have some ‘surface’ effects on someone’s psychology using clever management of the ego, mind games etc or go a little deeper again with processes such as NLP or CBT but really you are still dealing with the tip of the iceberg and the impact you will see of these methods will depend on the psychological make up that already exists in the person. You will commonly see practices such as NLP and CBT having short/medium term benefits but many people will eventually get dragged back to pre-existing patterns of behaviour due to how ingrained the the psycho-emotional system is on mental, physical and bio-chemical level. 

So, you can have some short terms effects on a player or team using some of the above methods or a coach building a particular relationship or rapport with a player or team that helps them feel more confident but unless a player undergoes some pretty intensive psychological/emotional work on themselves (or sometimes these things can be triggered by intense personal experiences or life events) they will be kind of ‘moving the chairs around the room’. 

You definitely won’t get very far by imaginging you are playing away from home and resetting the thought every 5 minutes. 

[SedRA]

54 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Some footballers are racked by nerves and a lack of confidence. We are all different. But these differences can be governed by having tool kits of different psychological exercises. Coaches … The modern ones now use thoroughly Sport psychologists, City use a man called Bill Beswick. Psychology is part of FA coaching modules. 

Telling yourself to enjoy it v its going to be a fearful experience works. We can fill our body with performance enhancing hormones by positive thought as well as negative ones that inhibit performance. Thinking I am a good player, I have trained well, I deserve to be in this team, I am fit, I have eaten healthily, I know what I am doing (tactical) feeds confidence. Its a choice. 

 

I suppose this kind of illustrates my point. If it was a simple as telling yourself some things Bill would have had the players flying within no time, but he's been working with them for a while and there are still issues with confidence. 

Its entirely possible to affect psychology but I think there is a lot of misunderstanding in the mainstream to how deep these things go and to how easy it is to change them to a significant level. Probably exasperated by the 'self-help' boom of the past 5-10 years, there's a lot of people making money out of presenting these things as simple '10 easy steps to a better life' if you buy my book etc. 

 

[Cowshed]

25 minutes ago, RedSA said:

Funnily enough I’ve worked with growth mindset/neuroplasticity processes in various capacities for 14 years alongside depth and transpersonal psychology. You are right you can affect your psychological make up to varying degrees dependent on a number of factors, and theoretically anyone could ‘rewire their brain’ to resolve a wide range of congnitive issues. 

However, in reality (and this was more the point of my response to the post I quoted) it takes a great deal of work and commitment to truly get to the deeper levels of the psyche that are governing the conscious mind. That is not having a fixed mindset, that is understanding the reality of the task at hand in transforming the mind. 

You can definitely have some ‘surface’ effects on someone’s psychology using clever management of the ego, mind games etc or go a little deeper again with processes such as NLP or CBT but really you are still dealing with the tip of the iceberg and the impact you will see of these methods will depend on the psychological make up that already exists in the person. You will commonly see practices such as NLP and CBT having short/medium term benefits but many people will eventually get dragged back to pre-existing patterns of behaviour due to how ingrained the the psycho-emotional system is on mental, physical and bio-chemical level. 

So, you can have some short terms effects on a player or team using some of the above methods or a coach building a particular relationship or rapport with a player or team that helps them feel more confident but unless a player undergoes some pretty intensive psychological/emotional work on themselves (or sometimes these things can be triggered by intense personal experiences or life events) they will be kind of ‘moving the chairs around the room’. 

You definitely won’t get very far by imaginging you are playing away from home and resetting the thought every 5 minutes. 

Excellent. 

Which was the point. We can.

I once had that fixed mindset that lead me to accept what I had been given, to think talent was wholly innate and training very hard for years but inefficiently. 

Knowledge, education, study of sports psychology and application has lead me to a position where I am now a different person psychologically. I can reframe my thoughts. I can control elements of performance. My self talk sparks frontal cortex, cerebellum, motor cortex and actions. Positive thought reinforces actions. We can change ourselves and our sporting behaviour in relatively short periods of time, the improvement in each individual will obviously vary but most people can be affected.

In regards to your last sentence. I strayed away from the home v away point. The posters answer could be in the tactical. City away face teams playing more openly leading to City playing with more freedom. 

[SedRA]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Excellent. 

Which was the point. We can.

I once had that fixed mindset that lead me to accept what I had been given, to think talent was wholly innate and training very hard for years but inefficiently. 

Knowledge, education, study of sports psychology and application has lead me to a position where I am now a different person psychologically. I can reframe my thoughts. I can control elements of performance. My self talk sparks frontal cortex, cerebellum, motor cortex and actions. Positive thought reinforces actions. We can change ourselves and our sporting behaviour in relatively short periods of time, the improvement in each individual will obviously vary but most people can be affected.

In regards to your last sentence. I strayed away from the home v away point. The posters answer could be in the tactical. City away face teams playing more openly leading to City playing with more freedom. 

Thats great and sounds like a good example of using techniques to affect the surface elements of the psyche. If you found it not too difficult then it would suggest you were someone with a psychological make up that was open to adapting in this way. 

I've also had very positive experiences with adapting my own mindset, and for a number of years made me think that it could be simple for anyone. But through years of working with/on others and learning from some of the leaders in these fields I have understood that not everyone works that way or adapts that easily. You can see relatively long term effects from short amounts of time with some people, whilst others need years of work before they see real change. Although pretty much everyone would require in-depth work to truly know themselves beyond creating a few desirable effects around confidence etc.  

It's a bit of a long conversation to go into the depth of the mind and the layers and systems that create our conscious experience but ultimately the point is that the mind is a very complex thing and there is no one fixed path or set of answers that works for adapting peoples mindset. 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, RedSA said:

Thats great and sounds like a good example of using techniques to affect the surface elements of the psyche. If you found it not too difficult then it would suggest you were someone with a psychological make up that was open to adapting in this way. 

I've also had very positive experiences with adapting my own mindset, and for a number of years made me think that it could be simple for anyone. But through years of working with/on others and learning from some of the leaders in these fields I have understood that not everyone works that way or adapts that easily. You can see relatively long term effects from short amounts of time with some people, whilst others need years of work before they see real change. Although pretty much everyone would require in-depth work to truly know themselves beyond creating a few desirable effects around confidence etc.  

It's a bit of a long conversation to go into the depth of the mind and the layers and systems that create our conscious experience but ultimately the point is that the mind is a very complex thing and there is no one fixed path or set of answers that works for adapting peoples mindset. 

I am perhaps being too general with my we and us.

There are people who are very difficult to reach. I could easily have been bracketed there. In my masculine world my view was that we should man up chin up, grow some balls (sounding like the Idles) and work harder with very little emphasis on the mental effort of what is work. Psychology was mumbo jumbo and bollocks for people who talked a lot … 

As my circle of sporting experience (coaching and playing) broadened I came into contact with people more far more enlightened and skilled, and with the ability to broaden my outlook. This eventually after a period of seasons lead me to being brutally honest with myself and truly knowing what I thought was true was my bollocks, confirmation bias I certainly did have. I had depthy work because I was fundamentally arrogant and ignorant.   

That would be a very long conversation to expand. It does lead me to a position that allows me to be more general. The thought of my young self being introduced to anchoring and visualisation would have been an embarrassing scene with myself looking on in disbelief at the cock suggesting it, now I am the one suggesting it to help young players govern their emotions and confidence. If I with support can improve we virtually all can improve our confidence in some way if we allow it.

What does the above have with the opening post ? Not so much I would still point to the tactical. 

[SedRA]

11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I am perhaps being too general with my we and us.

There are people who are very difficult to reach. I could easily have been bracketed there. In my masculine world my view was that we should man up chin up, grow some balls (sounding like the Idles) and work harder with very little emphasis on the mental effort of what is work. Psychology was mumbo jumbo and bollocks for people who talked a lot … 

As my circle of sporting experience (coaching and playing) broadened I came into contact with people more far enlightened and skilled, and with the ability to broaden my outlook. This eventually after a period of seasons  lead me to being brutally honest with myself and truly knowing what I thought was true was my bollocks, confirmation bias I certainly did have. I had depthy work because I was fundamentally arrogant and ignorant.   

That would be a very long conversation to expand. It does lead me to a position that allows me to be more general. The thought of my young self being introduced to anchoring and visualisation would have been an embarrassing scene with myself looking on in disbelief at the cock suggesting it, now I am the one suggesting it to help young players govern their emotions and confidence. If I with support can improve we virtually all can improve our confidence in some way if we allow it.

What does the above have with the opening post ? Not so much I would still point to the tactical. 

Got it

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 hours ago, hantsred said:

True that is only one basic measure of attacking intent and maybe a better comparison would be shots on goal per game at home showing that perhaps we are just very wasteful. However almost half as many goals scored at home certainly doesn't compare well with those around us. 

 

14 hours ago, hantsred said:

to answer my own question we are =12th in the "shots per game" at home with an average of 13.63 (and 4th place away!) so actually not so bad when compared to looking at just goals scored where we are 19th in the goals scored at home table. 

http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_shots

Yeah, didn't think the numbers were so bad as the output all told.

I think it is also amplified, magnified by the number of games we have had one shot on target at home- off top of head these were Preston, Millwall, Leeds and Ipswich- these can make the whole picture look or more accurately feel worse IMO.

The numbers are fairly middling- inaccurate finishing undoubtedly a part of that. 

I took  a look at the shots against too and what did come as a surprise given our defensive record is that we are 11th for shots conceded at home and 8th for total shots conceded per game at home.

Stats of course don't tell the whole picture- quality of shots a useful metric, range another.

[Red Skin]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I took  a look at the shots against too and what did come as a surprise given our defensive record is that we are 11th for shots conceded at home and 8th for total shots conceded per game at home.

Yes, surprising.

I can only think that the defence is so well marshalled and organised there is little opportunity to cut through us.  Maybe this leads to more shots from distance out of frustration.  

[southvillekiddy]

21 hours ago, RedSA said:

I think LJ has been alluding in recent interviews that there may be a lack of confidence from the players to go out and play on the front foot, particularly at home.

I’m sure they are working with ways to help create that confidence like you mention but unfortunately psychology isn’t quite as simple as repeating a phrase to yourself every 5 mins. If it was that simple then everyone would do it.

There are numerous layers of neurological, biological and physiological factors at play when it comes to things such as confidence, particularly in such an intense public environment as professional football. And that’s before you even talk about the more classical elements of the psyche that most people think of when you talk about psychology - meaning making, personal narrative, ego etc. These things are deeply engrained and apart from a few unique examples (Federer, Ronaldo etc) most athletes are probably, to a large degree, at the mercy of whatever psychological make up they’ve been dealt and the ebb and flow of confidence that comes with your recent performances  

 

Thanks mate, that's very informative. Quite a rarity on here to have someone read a poster making a serious point and then respond to it appropriately. 

I'd argue that City starting strongly with some short term strategy in mind must help? How about "Imagine you are a goal down and the team is pressing for an equaliser" I appreciate it's more feasible for a solo sportsman to use psychology but surely the team could have individually set strategies that takes into account their personal make-up as you say. Then these could be incorporated in a team pyschological strategy?

[southvillekiddy]

21 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Brilliant..! It’s sounds like you’ve sussed it all out anyway. 

All we need to do is win more games that we have lost and then win more games than we’ve drawn, and the jobs a good ‘un. 

I’ve always been very positive in my support of LJ, but you’ve changed my mind. If he can’t work this formula out for himself and employ someone to convey the message “play better and win more” then I don’t know what he’s doing in his job...!

EDIT: oh, hang on... what if every other club win games they’d lost & drawn and their manager told them to play better. That would throw a spanner in the works..!

Are Bristolians particularly sarcastic and pedantic or are they better at moaning? I'm not a scientist I can't work it out.

if you haven't ever wondered why we are frequently **** at Home then I am surprised.

Of course you are right. I remember Sven used to say things like "They scored a goal and we didn't. If we had scored a goal and they hadn't then we would have won. But that is football!" Genius or what?

But seriously folks. The stats show that our Home record is inferior to the other teams chasing promotion while our away form is almost the same as the second-placed team. My point was if we address this problem using whatever works, including sports psychology, we will be a better prospect for promotion. Obvious really but it needs saying. Do you use target-setting in your job?

 

[Bar BS3]

58 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Are Bristolians particularly sarcastic and pedantic or are they better at moaning? I'm not a scientist I can't work it out.

if you haven't ever wondered why we are frequently **** at Home then I am surprised.

Of course you are right. I remember Sven used to say things like "They scored a goal and we didn't. If we had scored a goal and they hadn't then we would have won. But that is football!" Genius or what?

But seriously folks. The stats show that our Home record is inferior to the other teams chasing promotion while our away form is almost the same as the second-placed team. My point was if we address this problem using whatever works, including sports psychology, we will be a better prospect for promotion. Obvious really but it needs saying. Do you use target-setting in your job?

 

The key is, those who find the formula to fixing their weaknesses & problems are those that gain more success, obviously. 

It’s what everyone is trying to achieve, but only a few succeed in doing. 

I agree that every avenue & opportunity should be explored. Why not..?! 

I think LJ is on this, with the “fine margins”. So far, it’s looking like whatever was practised over the recent break has had the desired effect. Let’s see if we’ve been working on the right things to get a massive home win on Saturday..!

[southvillekiddy]

44 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

The key is, those who find the formula to fixing their weaknesses & problems are those that gain more success, obviously. 

It’s what everyone is trying to achieve, but only a few succeed in doing. 

I agree that every avenue & opportunity should be explored. Why not..?! 

I think LJ is on this, with the “fine margins”. So far, it’s looking like whatever was practised over the recent break has had the desired effect. Let’s see if we’ve been working on the right things to get a massive home win on Saturday..!

Agree absolutely mate. The fine margins. It is what Clive Woodward was always looking for.

[downendcity]

I've commented before that LJ seems a very analytical coach and it appears that in analysing the opposition he then tries to set us up to counter the opposition strengths. 

Away from home, when the home team is expected to put the pressure on and make the running, his tactics usually work well, with our counter attacking style being ideally suited. However, there is a danger that when we are at home, if LJ does select the team and set us up to counter the opposition threat, then these tactics can be counter productive.

It would explain why all too often we start home games on the back foot, as it is almost as if LJ wants to see how the game pans out in order to decide if he needs to make any fine tuning changes to our set up, but this only concedes the initiative to the opposition. It then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, in that if we are on the back foot and start sluggishly, the crowd becomes nervous and restless and this is quickly conveyed to the players with the danger than they become more nervous and defensive creating a vicious circle of nervousness.

The games against Wolves and QPR were interesting, in that we started poorly and conceded the initiative and the lead to the opposition before half time, which is all too typical of home performances. However, in the second half of both games when we did put our foot down we were a different team and both Wolves and QPR were on the back foot and struggled to contain us.

The change in both games must have been instigated by LJ at half time, so if he can create this attitude at half time, why not pre-match? If we started games with such a positive approach while there might be a   danger of being caught on the counter  by some teams, I have a feeling that more often than not we would get a lead earlier in the game, which would not only boost the teams' confidence, but would also life the crowd, which in turn would lift the players - the reverse of what tends to happen all too often at the moment. 

[Tears in rain]

Can I just say how great this thread got when those who were discussing the intricacies of sport psychology emerged. 

It was great to be able to read about peoples opinions, use and understanding of psychological skills training and psychology methods like CBT. 

PST is a very useful thing for athletes to train with research suggesting it can bring about an improvement in skill as well as things like confidence. 

Of course things like self talk are useful and help as focusing or motivating factors, but as stated it won’t make the huge impact which drives a winning run at home. 

LJ keeps repeating himself about these little tiny 1% factors and this is where that comes in I believe. It is massively centred on an interdisciplinary approach. 

Would have commented sooner rather then later but it’s been a busy week! 

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Thanks mate, that's very informative. Quite a rarity on here to have someone read a poster making a serious point and then respond to it appropriately. 

I'd argue that City starting strongly with some short term strategy in mind must help? How about "Imagine you are a goal down and the team is pressing for an equaliser" I appreciate it's more feasible for a solo sportsman to use psychology but surely the team could have individually set strategies that takes into account their personal make-up as you say. Then these could be incorporated in a team pyschological strategy?

It is not a particularly unusual training tactic. Coaches frequently attempt to induce more tempo in training by creating more intensive scenarios. Stressing players in varying training exercises again creates intensity. Intensity feeds deeper learning and ultimately internalises training.

Psychology can be team centred. Lee Johnson mentions clarity. The team buying into its common purpose and thoroughly understanding their roles, while individually believing they have the qualities to adeptly carry out their roles is clarity. That learning can (100% will) be broken down individually into person centred training and training in units - defensive, midfield etc. 

This Clarity, knowledge, deep learning drives confidence. 

These are no secrets. The opposition will be prepared, rehearsed and motivated. The conservative football we see frequently at Ashton Gate is due to the opposition being prepared, rehearsed and motivated to keep it that way.

    

[Wrongagain]

Watching the bench at home there is a huge difference between the warm up enthusiasm of some of the players, strange thing is it’s usually the less enthusiastic but more experienced players that come on (with the exception of MT), is this due to the fact our coach still waits until the game is gone before making changes?

Our starting 11 at home is not usually what the fans expect in terms of attacking formation either, so the atmosphere is dampened before a ball is even played.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Watching the bench at home there is a huge difference between the warm up enthusiasm of some of the players, strange thing is it’s usually the less enthusiastic but more experienced players that come on (with the exception of MT), is this due to the fact our coach still waits until the game is gone before making changes?

Our starting 11 at home is not usually what the fans expect in terms of attacking formation either, so the atmosphere is dampened before a ball is even played.

Last sentence is interesting especially.

One up front isn't necessarily inherently negative- perhaps a mismatch at times between perception and reality? Now if it was 3-5-2 vs 4-1-4-1 I would agree but if it was expectations of 4-4-2 then like I say a bit of a mismatch IMO.

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, downendcity said:

I've commented before that LJ seems a very analytical coach and it appears that in analysing the opposition he then tries to set us up to counter the opposition strengths. 

Away from home, when the home team is expected to put the pressure on and make the running, his tactics usually work well, with our counter attacking style being ideally suited. However, there is a danger that when we are at home, if LJ does select the team and set us up to counter the opposition threat, then these tactics can be counter productive.

It would explain why all too often we start home games on the back foot, as it is almost as if LJ wants to see how the game pans out in order to decide if he needs to make any fine tuning changes to our set up, but this only concedes the initiative to the opposition. It then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, in that if we are on the back foot and start sluggishly, the crowd becomes nervous and restless and this is quickly conveyed to the players with the danger than they become more nervous and defensive creating a vicious circle of nervousness.

The games against Wolves and QPR were interesting, in that we started poorly and conceded the initiative and the lead to the opposition before half time, which is all too typical of home performances. However, in the second half of both games when we did put our foot down we were a different team and both Wolves and QPR were on the back foot and struggled to contain us.

The change in both games must have been instigated by LJ at half time, so if he can create this attitude at half time, why not pre-match? If we started games with such a positive approach while there might be a   danger of being caught on the counter  by some teams, I have a feeling that more often than not we would get a lead earlier in the game, which would not only boost the teams' confidence, but would also life the crowd, which in turn would lift the players - the reverse of what tends to happen all too often at the moment. 

Agree with the sentiments of this DC, but I think most home games we do start relatively well (for 10-15 mins), but we ultimately don’t get a goal, and we then suffer as the away team grow in confidence.  I agree that Wolves (less so QPR imho) and Ipswich we gave up the early initiative.

[Hellfire Corner]

On 03/04/2019 at 15:04, spudski said:

 

It's a catch 22.

Imo...for it to work...the whole end needs to be like section 82 with standing and singing.

Stuck away in the corner doesn't work imo...such a shame.

Surely that must be a catch 82?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Agree with the sentiments of this DC, but I think most home games we do start relatively well (for 10-15 mins), but we ultimately don’t get a goal, and we then suffer as the away team grow in confidence.  I agree that Wolves (less so QPR imho) and Ipswich we gave up the early initiative.

Wolves was more understandable I think given their quality, a more cautious start perhaps prudent- but agree with the general point.

Good example of your point was thinking way back to August. Middlesbrough at home- we were certainly beaten but 2-0 was harsh. More than that though, we did start well but conceded a soft goal and it went downhill from there. 2-1 a fairer scoreline than 2-0 that day IMO but before the error it was a fairly even start. Error leading to Middlesbrough opener naturally deflated the crowd.