Taz Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said: It would be interesting to know how often clubs who hold sell on rights are asked to waive a proportion of those fees to get a deal done. You can imagine a situation where a club in Ipswich's position would prefer to get a guarranteed £3-4m this year than wait till next year or whenever to get £5m. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there was already a market in sell-on rights. 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Interesting thought @Yellow&Blue&Red We know clubs renegotiate add-ons and payment terms. That's a really interesting thought actually. We (apparently) renegotiated some of the Kodjia fees with Villa. Not sure if it was part of the Baker transfer or, whether it was to help them out financially - can't remember the timings. Sure I read this summer that when Man Utd were speaking with Palace about Wan Bisaka, Palace tried to renegotiate the Zaha sell on as there was big interest in him. Not sure what happened with that, know Utd weren't keen initially. You're right @Yellow&Blue&Red, there probably is a market for it, and it's probably already happening more than we realise. If you were Ipswich, knowing Websters history as they do, and Bristol City came to you with an offer of £1.5m now to waive the sell-on, or do you risk Webster being completely over his injury problems and go on to become the next Harry Maguire (for arguments sake)? Let's presume that they have a 10% cut of any future transfer fee, and that this time next year, he moves somewhere for £25m-40m (hypothetically). That's anything from £2.5m - £4m. Now, if Webster gets a career ending injury, and doesn't move again, they get nothing. So again, if you are Ipswich and Bristol City offer £1.5m in cash right now, do you waive your future fee, or take the risk that in 12 months or so, that fee can double at least? It's an interesting scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 Pretty sure I read a story recently about a club selling their sell on clause This is an older one, Southampton sold their clause on Bale when in financial troubles, £3m instead of potentially £20m http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/226447.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 Wrong thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elhombrecito Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, hodge said: Smith turning his arm over at slip? Don't tell me Webster is defecting to the Aussies?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 minute ago, elhombrecito said: Don't tell me Webster is defecting to the Aussies?! Nah we're playing a game out in America and Korey is getting ready.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elhombrecito Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 minute ago, hodge said: Nah we're playing a game out in America and Korey is getting ready.... Ah sorry, my mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Taz said: That's a really interesting thought actually. We (apparently) renegotiated some of the Kodjia fees with Villa. Not sure if it was part of the Baker transfer or, whether it was to help them out financially - can't remember the timings. Sure I read this summer that when Man Utd were speaking with Palace about Wan Bisaka, Palace tried to renegotiate the Zaha sell on as there was big interest in him. Not sure what happened with that, know Utd weren't keen initially. You're right @Yellow&Blue&Red, there probably is a market for it, and it's probably already happening more than we realise. If you were Ipswich, knowing Websters history as they do, and Bristol City came to you with an offer of £1.5m now to waive the sell-on, or do you risk Webster being completely over his injury problems and go on to become the next Harry Maguire (for arguments sake)? Let's presume that they have a 10% cut of any future transfer fee, and that this time next year, he moves somewhere for £25m-40m (hypothetically). That's anything from £2.5m - £4m. Now, if Webster gets a career ending injury, and doesn't move again, they get nothing. So again, if you are Ipswich and Bristol City offer £1.5m in cash right now, do you waive your future fee, or take the risk that in 12 months or so, that fee can double at least? It's an interesting scenario. United refused to change the sell on clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 I wonder how much Ipswich have had for the Mings sell-on assuming there was one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said: I wonder how much Ipswich have had for the Mings sell-on assuming there was one. More importantly did Chippenham have one!!! The Money we made from Bolassie is probably the most unexpected £several million we’ve ever received! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolman_Stand Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 47 minutes ago, Davefevs said: More importantly did Chippenham have one!!! The Money we made from Bolassie is probably the most unexpected £several million we’ve ever received! Dont think he was under contract to chippenham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James54De Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 47 minutes ago, Davefevs said: More importantly did Chippenham have one!!! The Money we made from Bolassie is probably the most unexpected £several million we’ve ever received! Sell ons rarely include money 2 transfers down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppello Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, James54De said: Sell ons rarely include money 2 transfers down the line. They do. It gets quite complicated when a player is a bit older and has played for a number of clubs across Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if Chippenham were in for another pay day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Fox Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 On 08/07/2019 at 13:41, Moments of Pleasure said: I believe the signs were there in 1905, when Alf Common went to Middlesbrough, for £1,000 What would the whole common have cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norn Iron Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Grey Fox said: What would the whole common have cost? I know this was a legal minefield that resulted in an act named after him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Coppello said: They do. It gets quite complicated when a player is a bit older and has played for a number of clubs across Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if Chippenham were in for another pay day. Just from a maths point of view. Adam Webster - hypothetical Portsmouth to Ipswich £750k + 20% profit sell-on Ipswich to Bristol City £3.50m + 20% pso (Portsmouth due 20% of £2.75m = £550k) Bristol City to Southampton £23.50m + 20% pso (Ipswich due 20% of £20.0m = £4m) what are Portsmouth due, and from whom? Southampton to Man Utd £43.50m + 20% pso (City due 20% of 20.0m = £4m) what are Ipswich due and from? What are Portsmouth due and from whom? ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Just from a maths point of view. Adam Webster - hypothetical Portsmouth to Ipswich £750k + 20% profit sell-on Ipswich to Bristol City £3.50m + 20% pso (Portsmouth due 20% of £2.75m = £550k) Bristol City to Southampton £23.50m + 20% pso (Ipswich due 20% of £20.0m = £4m) what are Portsmouth due, and from whom? £800k from Ipswich Southampton to Man Utd £43.50m + 20% pso (City due 20% of 20.0m = £4m) what are Ipswich due and from? What are Portsmouth due and from whom? £800k to Ipswich from us £160k to Pompey, from Ipswich ta. The sell on is a percentage of what the club you sold to receives in totality. If Ipswich sold their sell on, then Pompey would get a % of that and the chain to Pompey and Ipswich would be broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, 29AR said: The sell on is a percentage of what the club you sold to receives in totality. So it would be for Ipswich to keep paying Pompey 20% of what Ipswich get, us to pay 20% to Ipswich etc. Beautiful....that makes sense. Thought it would be something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Hucker Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 42 minutes ago, Norn Iron said: I know this was a legal minefield that resulted in an act named after him! So Common Law is named after Alf? I did not know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Just from a maths point of view. Adam Webster - hypothetical Portsmouth to Ipswich £750k + 20% profit sell-on Ipswich to Bristol City £3.50m + 20% pso (Portsmouth due 20% of £2.75m = £550k) Bristol City to Southampton £23.50m + 20% pso (Ipswich due 20% of £20.0m = £4m) what are Portsmouth due, and from whom? Southampton to Man Utd £43.50m + 20% pso (City due 20% of 20.0m = £4m) what are Ipswich due and from? What are Portsmouth due and from whom? ta. I'll try and do a breakdown of how I understand it to be, but will adjust a few things to (hopefully) make the numbers easier to use. I'll also be changing the sell on to just be of transfer fees rather than profit, again for simplicity . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said: I'll try and do a breakdown of how I understand it to be, but will adjust a few things to (hopefully) make the numbers easier to use. I'll also be changing the sell on to just be of transfer fees rather than profit, again for simplicity . I think @29AR has already answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said: I'll try and do a breakdown of how I understand it to be, but will adjust a few things to (hopefully) make the numbers easier to use. I'll also be changing the sell on to just be of transfer fees rather than profit, again for simplicity . So the sequence in my one will be a little different, Portsmouth to Ipswich £1m + 20% sell-on Ipswich to Bristol City £5m + 20% so (Changed to £5m partly because of numbers and partly because we had a few different clauses a/effecting the fee) Bristol City to Southampton £20m + 20% so Southampton to Man Utd £40m + 20% so Total money spent is £66m. @Davefevs my understanding is. Portsmouth get their £1m initial income, plus 20% of Ipswich's £5m. An extra £1m. They are also due 20% of Ipswich's 20% of our £20m, an extra £800k. Plus 20% of Ipswich's 20% of our 20% of Southampton's £40m, another £320k. Total money recieved (Portsmouth) £3.12m Total money recieved (all) £3.12m. Ipswich get £5m, less the 20% for Pompey. So £4m. Plus 20% of our £20m, less 20% of that number which goes to Pompey, £3.2m. Plus 20% of our 20% of Southampton's £40m. Minus 20% which goes to Pompey, £1.28m Total money recieved (Ipswich) £8.48m Total money recieved (all) £11.6. Bristol City get £20m from Southampton, less 20% for Ipswich's sell on. 16m. Plus 20% of Southampton's £40m, minus the 20% that is passed on, £6.4m. Total money recieved (Bristol City) £22.4m Total money recieved (all) £34m) Southampton get £40m off of Manchester United, minus the sell on, £32m Total money recieved (Southampton) £32m Total money recieved (all) £66m. Edit- was almost done when you said someone else had explained it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said: So the sequence in my one will be a little different, Portsmouth to Ipswich £1m + 20% sell-on Ipswich to Bristol City £5m + 20% so (Changed to £5m partly because of numbers and partly because we had a few different clauses a/effecting the fee) Bristol City to Southampton £20m + 20% so Southampton to Man Utd £40m + 20% so Total money spent is £66m. @Davefevs my understanding is. Portsmouth get their £1m initial income, plus 20% of Ipswich's £5m. An extra £1m. They are also due 20% of Ipswich's 20% of our £20m, an extra £800k. Plus 20% of Ipswich's 20% of our 20% of Southampton's £40m, another £320k. Total money recieved (Portsmouth) £3.12m Total money recieved (all) £3.12m. Ipswich get £5m, less the 20% for Pompey. So £4m. Plus 20% of our £20m, less 20% of that number which goes to Pompey, £3.2m. Plus 20% of our 20% of Southampton's £40m. Minus 20% which goes to Pompey, £1.28m Total money recieved (Ipswich) £8.48m Total money recieved (all) £11.6. Bristol City get £20m from Southampton, less 20% for Ipswich's sell on. 16m. Plus 20% of Southampton's £40m, minus the 20% that is passed on, £6.4m. Total money recieved (Bristol City) £22.4m Total money recieved (all) £34m) Southampton get £40m off of Manchester United, minus the sell on, £32m Total money recieved (Southampton) £32m Total money recieved (all) £66m. Edit- was almost done when you said someone else had explained it! If we think that this complicated; imagine if Dortmund had a sell on for Mkhitaryan. Value the respective barter/swap of him and Sanchez, was there profit on what Man Utd paid on HM in getting Sanchez*, and then what is due to Dortmund. *if there was... hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, 29AR said: If we think that this complicated; imagine if Dortmund had a sell on for Mkhitaryan. Value the respective barter/swap of him and Sanchez, was there profit on what Man Utd paid on HM in getting Sanchez*, and then what is due to Dortmund. *if there was... hahahaha Another (potential) complication is loan fees. If Man Utd sent Webster on loan in our hypothetical world with a £2m loan fee are Southampton entitled to 20% of that (less our 20% etc)? Also in the real world transfers are largely paid in installments. So the % sell on we get from Southampton would also come in in chunks as they get their money as well as their actual initial spend being in installments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 minute ago, JamesBCFC said: Another (potential) complication is loan fees. If Man Utd sent Webster on loan in our hypothetical world with a £2m loan fee are Southampton entitled to 20% of that (less our 20% etc)? Also in the real world transfers are largely paid in installments. So the % sell on we get from Southampton would also come in in chunks as they get their money as well as their actual initial spend being in installments. My gut feel is that loan fees would not count. But I'm guessing. Re instalments, yes, sell on money would be paid in instalments too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: My gut feel is that loan fees would not count. But I'm guessing. Re instalments, yes, sell on money would be paid in instalments too. I'd also guess the same re loan fees. Also if say Ipswich got in financial trouble and offered us the chance to buy out their sell on clause for £2m, I'd guess it would then negate Portsmouth's too from all future transport (Pompey getting their 20% of that £2m but no more after that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 minute ago, JamesBCFC said: I'd also guess the same re loan fees. Also if say Ipswich got in financial trouble and offered us the chance to buy out their sell on clause for £2m, I'd guess it would then negate Portsmouth's too from all future transport (Pompey getting their 20% of that £2m but no more after that point. Dunno about the second point, not sure Ipswich and City could agree something that would negate Portsmouth retaining their sell-on interest. Suspect Ipswich would still be liable to Portsmouth. Suggest this is why Coppello says it gets very complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 Trololo Poor Villa, they signed some no one from Brentford cuz they cud'nt get Webinho, :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fpcity Posted July 12, 2019 Report Share Posted July 12, 2019 They're signing another defender from Belgium. Definitely won't be going for Webster now . They're doing a Fulham this season! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen humphries Posted July 12, 2019 Report Share Posted July 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, paul_fox said: They're signing another defender from Belgium. Definitely won't be going for Webster now . They're doing a Fulham this season! Hope it ends the same way as Fulham , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishRed Posted July 12, 2019 Report Share Posted July 12, 2019 According to Sky they are close to signing Douglas Luiz from Man City for £15m - they most certainly are doing a Fulham. If these two deals happen they have spent almost £100m, Sky states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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