Maybe, just maybe

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, lenred said:

You definitely aren’t. Everyone I go with feels the same - even the died in the wool ‘won’t have a word said against the club ever’ one!  For me it’s much worse football atm than under O ‘Driscoll. Maybe I drunk more back then to numb the pain (!) but the football we are playing now is just turgid, unattractive, predictable and mightily dull. Give me exciting and attacking football as a base level when and where possible and then move up from there. I would much rather that and we were mid table as opposed to ‘keeping in touch’ with the top 6 playing the carp we are atm and haven been for a good while. It needs to change. Not calling for LJ to go at all as it stands but hope to hell some changes in January kickstarts us as a spectacle.  

In fairness, the O'Driscoll comparison is misleading IMO. 

We were right near the bottom of not only THIS League but the one below. We were surely along with Wolves and Sheffield United amongst the favourites for promotion.

It was a bit of a reset phase but to compare this and that seems well OTT to me, once standard of competition etc factored in. 

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, red panda said:

Based on last season's average attendances across all English leagues, we should be 10th in the Championship.  We're over-performing 

You can’t base league position on average attendance. Bournemouth only average just over 11,000 but are in the Premier League. With that sort of support they should be near the bottom of the Championship, but they aren’t because they are doing something right. Conversely Sunderland average over 32,000 but are mid table in League 1 because they are doing a lot wrong 

[ScottishRed]

25 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

You can’t base league position on average attendance. Bournemouth only average just over 11,000 but are in the Premier League. With that sort of support they should be near the bottom of the Championship, but they aren’t because they are doing something right. Conversely Sunderland average over 32,000 but are mid table in League 1 because they are doing a lot wrong 

Part of what they are 'doing' right is getting £100m+ in TV money every season.

I agree with your general point however that attendance isn't everything but nobody can deny that we are now getting a lot of fans through the  doors but the football is awful. Eventually attendances will drop unless what is on show improves. Football at this level is not inexpensive.

[Guest]

He was thinking, how come Sheff Utd are challenging the top places in the prem and we are....well here....still. Then remembers we are being sustainable so alls well.

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Look at budgets though:

City (18/19)

Turnover: £30m

Wages: £30m

Preston (17/18) - but won’t have changed much

Turnover: £12m (36% of ours)

Wages: £14m (less than half of ours)

Brentford (17/18) - but won’t have changed much

Turnover: £13m

Wages: £17m

In my opinion, fantastic we are growing our revenue streams, but there are some massive costs I've not included above too, our amortisation is twice those two, our other operating expenses huge in comparison.  Those two our “punching” much better than us.

What were City's turnover and wages in 17/18?

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

You can’t base league position on average attendance. Bournemouth only average just over 11,000 but are in the Premier League. With that sort of support they should be near the bottom of the Championship, but they aren’t because they are doing something right. Conversely Sunderland average over 32,000 but are mid table in League 1 because they are doing a lot wrong 

What Bournemouth did "right" was putting 2 fingers up to the EFL and it's ffp rules  and bought promotion to the premier league, with only a small fine as a penalty.

Since then the improved TV deal has given them the finances to compete in the top flight.

[pongo88]

11 minutes ago, downendcity said:

What Bournemouth did "right" was putting 2 fingers up to the EFL and it's ffp rules  and bought promotion to the premier league, with only a small fine as a penalty.

Since then the improved TV deal has given them the finances to compete in the top flight.

That’s only partially correct. The bit you’re missing is they appointed an excellent manager a bought the correct mix of players. 

[CotswoldRed]

Maybe SL's chopper failed the MOT last week? That would annoy me. 

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, italian dave said:

What were City's turnover and wages in 17/18?

Turnover £26m

Wages £27m

[Chappers]

Maybe, just maybe, we’ll stop getting endless threads labouring the same points.

[bcfcredandwhite]

SL was probably upset that we lost - like most of us. 

[pillred]

6 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Difference being, we get twice the crowds they do (Brentford ,anyway )

And Preston.

[phantom]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

That’s only partially correct. The bit you’re missing is they appointed an excellent manager a bought the correct mix of players. 

Compared to someone else who has just realised he has signed too many bang average players 

Five windows 50 Sen Players Signed.That's enough for four teams.

 

• One's in Red are loans (13) (26%)
• We've had Six succesful loan 6/13.Abraham,DaSilva, Kalas, Palmer, Afobe & Perreira (3 Now Perm)
• Ones who have already left in Blue (13) (26%)
• Green-Loaned Out (3) 6%

 

Probably missed one or two so please add.

GK (3)
1.Ivan Lucic............................5/10
2.Fabian Geifer......................6/10
3.Luke Steele.........................7/10
----------------------------------------------
RB (2) 
4.Adam Matthews..................2/10
5.Eros Pisano........................6/10
---------------------------------------------
RCB (3) 
6.Taylor Moore......................5/10
7.Bailey Wright......................7/10
8.Eckstrand...........................0/10
------------------------------------------------
LCB (2) 
9.Hourder Magnusson..........6/10
10.Nathan Baker...................7/10
-----------------------------------------------
CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (2) 
11.Jens Hegler......................4/10
12.Gary O'Neil......................5/10
--------------------------------------------
ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (6)
13.Lee Tomlin........................6/10
14.Josh Brownhill...................8/10
15.Callum O'Dowda...............7/10
16.Jamie Paterson.................7/10
17.Dave Cotterill....................6/10
18.Niclas Elliason...................4/10
19.Liam Walsh........................4/10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
STRIKER (9)
20.Gustav Engvall................0/10
21.Matt Taylor.......................6/10
22.Tammy Abraham.............10/10
23.Milan Djuric.......................5/10
24.Cauley Woodrow..............5/10
25.Famara Diedhiou..............7/10
26.Jonathan Leko..................5/10
27.Ryan Kent........................2/10
28.Loic Diony........................0/10

• So,50 signed in 6 Windows.
• Ave appx 9 Per Window

Latest signings:

• 29.Marley Watkins-Winger..........2/10
• 30.Hakeeb Adelukan-Winger......0/10
• 31.Adam Webster-CB................10/10
• 32.Andreas Weissman-Striker.....7/10
• 33.Jack Hunt-Right Back.............6/10
• 34.Mohammed Eisa-Striker.........3/10
• 35.Nikki Maenpaa-GK..................7/10
• 36.Jay DaSilva-LB.......................8/10
• 37.Tomas Kalas...........................8/10
• 38.Kasey Palmer.........................6/10
• 39 Rob Cundy-CH.......................6/10
• 40.Stefan Marinovic-GK..............2/10
• 41.Sammy Smodzics-CCM.........5/10
• 42.Tommy Rowe-Def/Mid............7/10
• 43.Daniel Bentley.........................8/10
• 44.Rene Gilmartin........................Can't say
• 45.Hans Noah-Massongo.............7/10
• 46.Pedro Perrerra.........................6/10
• 47.Adam Nagy..............................7/10
• 48.Benik Afobe.............................8/10
• 49.Ashley Williams.......................8/10
• 50 Rodri........................................6/10

 

 

Totals

 

• Signed 50
• Sold/Released 13
• Loaned In 13
• Loaned Out 3
• Sub Total 21
• Loan To Perm 3 (DaSilva, Kalas & Palmer)
• Loans Still Here 2 (Afobe & Perriera)
• Total Still Here 24 (48%)

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Maybe SL's chopper failed the MOT last week? That would annoy me. 

Tbf, anyone who's having trouble keeping their chopper up is going to be annoyed.

[Major Isewater]

4 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Why can't we string two passes together but Brentford can? What's the reason for that and what's the solution?

I have banged on about ‘ teamwork ‘ for ages now . We seem to be a collection of talented individuals who don’t play often enough together and in the same formation to interact as a team. 
 

A team consists of players who know their jobs inside out and the game and skill sets of their teammates. 
 

My suspicion is that their professional lives are over complicated.

[lenred]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In fairness, the O'Driscoll comparison is misleading IMO. 

We were right near the bottom of not only THIS League but the one below. We were surely along with Wolves and Sheffield United amongst the favourites for promotion.

It was a bit of a reset phase but to compare this and that seems well OTT to me, once standard of competition etc factored in. 

Im talking purely in terms of style of play and entertainment value so imho not well OTT but concede it depends how you look at it. The football on show is dire at the moment. I jokingly said on the match thread that there were more shots on target in the last 10 minutes of the game between Blackburn and Wigan last night then we have had in the last 3 games but I’d imagine it’s not far off the mark.  And Wigan are bottom. 

[maxjak]

8 hours ago, richwwtk said:

In what way? Similar sustainable models agreed, but their results and league positions are, by and large, similar to ours as well. We're doing no worse than either of them.

I would argue that they are both playing more entertaining and enterprising football, and are  value for money for your entrance fee?........I cannot remember an entertaining home game, apart from Huddersfield, at AG this season.

[Lrrr]

@phantom not going to quote your post because of its length

From memory wasn't Matthews initial loan successful? Probably fairer to judge to two separately, however a successful initial spell would then lead favourably for a return as with Tomlin. 

Taylor Moore a 5? With Robbie Cundy a 6 seems incredibly harsh, Moore has progressed to a somewhat regular championship player. 

Eliasson a 4? If we were to sell him January or in the summer we're likely to at least double our money on him, at this rate will be passing double figures for assists. 

As for the quantity bare in mind LJ was left with a first team squad of 17/18 players so needed a good 5/6 just to get back to a normal squad size, takes 1 off the average if you say he's made 9 signings per window on average. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, glos old boy said:

He was thinking, how come Sheff Utd are challenging the top places in the prem and we are....well here....still. Then remembers we are being sustainable so alls well.

So were they!! Broadly speaking over 3 years etc.

Selling Brooks helped to fund things for them last year. Not saying they broke even but losses may not have been so much.

They seem to have a lower cost base than us, or have had, for whatever reason. Player wages obviously but not just that!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, lenred said:

Im talking purely in terms of style of play and entertainment value so imho not well OTT but concede it depends how you look at it. The football on show is dire at the moment. I jokingly said on the match thread that there were more shots on target in the last 10 minutes of the game between Blackburn and Wigan last night then we have had in the last 3 games but I’d imagine it’s not far off the mark.  And Wigan are bottom. 

Wigan's underlying performance often seems better than results.

O'Driscoll...still not sure how fair a comparison it is because when you play at a higher level there can be an impact upon ability to entertain etc.

Doesn't seem good in terms of like for like. 

[Davefevs]

In many respects he’s replaced / recruited well.

Bentley for Fielding

Dasilva for Bryan

Kalas for Flint (Webster not yet replaced)

He hasn’t replaced Bobby Reid’s “season” though, which came on the back of Tammy, which came on the back of Kodjia!

And whilst I fully accept not every transfer is gonna work out, nor will all “for the future” make the grade, we have a huge wage bill / commitment by bringing in too many “clubs in the bag”.

I do wonder how Those types of players are pitched to SL?

 

 

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Turnover £26m

Wages £27m

Thanks Dave. Essentially 2x Brentford, PNE. I guess part of the difficulty is that whether it's 13m or 26m we're also competing with those like Villa, Wolves, even Bournemouth, who go sh*t for bust and spend 10x Brentford, breaking all the rules, and getting away with it by going up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

Compared to someone else who has just realised he has signed too many bang average players 

Five windows 50 Sen Players Signed.That's enough for four teams.

 

• One's in Red are loans (13) (26%)
• We've had Six succesful loan 6/13.Abraham,DaSilva, Kalas, Palmer, Afobe & Perreira (3 Now Perm)
• Ones who have already left in Blue (13) (26%)
• Green-Loaned Out (3) 6%

 

Probably missed one or two so please add.

GK (3)
1.Ivan Lucic............................5/10
2.Fabian Geifer......................6/10
3.Luke Steele.........................7/10
----------------------------------------------
RB (2) 
4.Adam Matthews..................2/10
5.Eros Pisano........................6/10
---------------------------------------------
RCB (3) 
6.Taylor Moore......................5/10
7.Bailey Wright......................7/10
8.Eckstrand...........................0/10
------------------------------------------------
LCB (2) 
9.Hourder Magnússon..........6/10
10.Nathan Baker...................7/10
-----------------------------------------------
CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (2) 
11.Jens Hegeler......................4/10
12.Gary O'Neil......................5/10
--------------------------------------------
ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (6)
13.Lee Tomlin........................6/10
14.Josh Brownhill...................8/10
15.Callum O'Dowda...............7/10
16.Jamie Paterson.................7/10
17.Dave Cotterill....................6/10
18.Niclas Elliason...................4/10
19.Liam Walsh........................4/10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
STRIKER (9)
20.Gustav Engvall................0/10
21.Matt Taylor.......................6/10
22.Tammy Abraham.............10/10
23.Milan Djuric.......................5/10
24.Cauley Woodrow..............5/10
25.Famara Diedhiou..............7/10
26.Jonathan Leko..................5/10
27.Ryan Kent........................2/10
28.Loic Diony........................0/10

• So,50 signed in 6 Windows.
• Ave appx 9 Per Window

Latest signings:

• 29.Marley Watkins-Winger..........2/10
• 30.Hakeeb Adelukan-Winger......0/10
• 31.Adam Webster-CB................10/10
• 32.Andreas Weissman-Striker.....7/10
• 33.Jack Hunt-Right Back.............6/10
• 34.Mohammed Eisa-Striker.........3/10
• 35.Nikki Maenpaa-GK..................7/10
• 36.Jay DaSilva-LB.......................8/10
• 37.Tomas Kalas...........................8/10
• 38.Kasey Palmer.........................6/10
• 39 Rob Cundy-CH.......................6/10
• 40.Stefan Marinovic-GK..............2/10
• 41.Sammy Smodzics-CCM.........5/10
• 42.Tommy Rowe-Def/Mid............7/10
• 43.Daniel Bentley.........................8/10
• 44.Rene Gilmartin........................Can't say
• 45.Hans Noah-Massongo.............7/10
• 46.Pedro Perrerra.........................6/10
• 47.Adam Nagy..............................7/10
• 48.Benik Afobe.............................8/10
• 49.Ashley Williams.......................8/10
• 50 Rodri........................................6/10

 

 

Totals

 

• Signed 50
• Sold/Released 13
• Loaned In 13
• Loaned Out 3
• Sub Total 21
• Loan To Perm 3 (DaSilva, Kalas & Palmer)
• Loans Still Here 2 (Afobe & Perriera)
• Total Still Here 24 (48%)

Tbh a number of these had varying injuries so these should be factored in. 

Ones I think could've been better if not for injuries:

O'Neil, Hegeler, Djuric. 

Eliasson at 4, not injuries but LJ doesn't use him right or enough. I'd attach more blame to LJ there. Walsh never really got a proper chance, could arguably say simular about Hegeler in some ways...LJ can lack an ability to get the best technically our of varied CMs IMO. 

Him shoehorning them into weird shapes in a division where many fill the centre, weakens their effectiveness and us as a team as well. 

Matthews was a good RB on loan. Tomlin was excellent on loan but after about the end of October on 2016, he went to shit.

Moore, still young and ballplaying. Should improve from here, if used correctly.

Moreover though, I wonder whether he can, or knows how to get the best out of players from higher levels- International, Bundesliga, Serie A, youth of bigger clubs or regular PL, it O'Neil.

I have to say, the jury is out.

[Mr Popodopolous]

40 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Thanks Dave. Essentially 2x Brentford, PNE. I guess part of the difficulty is that whether it's 13m or 26m we're also competing with those like Villa, Wolves, even Bournemouth, who go sh*t for bust and spend 10x Brentford, breaking all the rules, and getting away with it by going up.

Bournemouth broke the rules, the old rules. Only got a fine as that's what it allowed.

Wolves didn't break the rules, as such. Close but no cigar. Whether their Mendes links were fair is another debate but they probably lost £2-3m under the £39m over 3 seasons, once allowable costs including promotion bonuses/obligations to buy if promoted adjusted out.

Aston Villa are the ones. Still a bit of a live issue in a way. 

[Northern Red]

4 hours ago, Chappers said:

Maybe, just maybe, we’ll stop getting endless threads labouring the same points.

We live in hope.

[phantom]

1 hour ago, hodge said:

@phantom not going to quote your post because of its length

From memory wasn't Matthews initial loan successful? Probably fairer to judge to two separately, however a successful initial spell would then lead favourably for a return as with Tomlin. 

Taylor Moore a 5? With Robbie Cundy a 6 seems incredibly harsh, Moore has progressed to a somewhat regular championship player. 

Eliasson a 4? If we were to sell him January or in the summer we're likely to at least double our money on him, at this rate will be passing double figures for assists. 

As for the quantity bare in mind LJ was left with a first team squad of 17/18 players so needed a good 5/6 just to get back to a normal squad size, takes 1 off the average if you say he's made 9 signings per window on average. 

Sorry @hodge should have added this was originally written back in September. 

Just really to emphasise the high proportion of players signed. I agree LJ wanted to replace previous players (ironically mostly our title winning squad) but nothing any other manager has not had to deal with. 

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

Sorry @hodge should have added this was originally written back in September. 

Just really to emphasise the high proportion of players signed. I agree LJ wanted to replace previous players (ironically mostly our title winning squad) but nothing any other manager has not had to deal with. 

Well that explains a bit...

Most managers don't get left with a 1st team squad of 17/18 though

[Major Isewater]

37 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

We live in hope.

Just off the A38.

[MarcusX]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In many respects he’s replaced / recruited well.

Bentley for Fielding

Dasilva for Bryan

Kalas for Flint (Webster not yet replaced)

He hasn’t replaced Bobby Reid’s “season” though, which came on the back of Tammy, which came on the back of Kodjia!

And whilst I fully accept not every transfer is gonna work out, nor will all “for the future” make the grade, we have a huge wage bill / commitment by bringing in too many “clubs in the bag”.

I do wonder how Those types of players are pitched to SL?

 

 

I honestly believe Afobe would have got us somewhere close to a Reid/Tammy replacement. The guy is class and has goals in him, the injury was such a shame

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I honestly believe Afobe would have got us somewhere close to a Reid/Tammy replacement. The guy is class and has goals in him, the injury was such a shame

Agree.  He was pretty much everything I wanted in a striker, quick, strong, finish off either foot, runs the channels, receive it back to goal, etc.  I always liked him, but he was still better than I thought when I saw him up close.