Match Report: Johnson's latest collapse may be fatal

[Dottie]

It seems that they are playing to predetermined patterns & if that doesn’t work they have no idea how to improvise. 

[Natchfever]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

I hope that is out of context. No grass roots club should be  doing its best to tun kids away from academies. 

My family member has had an experience he will have for the rest of his life, and is pursuing his dream. No reputable club should try and prevent kids having that experience and opportunity.

Ditto. My own close family member absolutely lived the dream played at some fabulous venues against the top sides in the south and midlands and is a far better player as a consequence even though he was let go after 5 years.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

 

I hope that is out of context. No grass roots club should be  doing its best to tun kids away from academies. 

My family member has had an experience he will have for the rest of his life, and is pursuing his dream. No reputable club should try and prevent kids having that experience and opportunity.

No one is telling kids to stop playing football, but with some noticeable exceptions it is often better for kids to stay at grassroots, rather than becoming just another number in the academies.  The time commitment of academies is such that there is almost no time for anything else and boys lose the opportunity to develop as individuals,  The experience of academies isn’t always what you might think it is and the opportunity often only leads to heartbreak at the most impressionable age.  The number of academy kids not making it into the full time game who are lost to football permanently is astonishing.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 minute ago, Natchfever said:

Ditto. My own close family member absolutely lived the dream played at some fabulous venues against the top sides in the south and midlands and is a far better player as a consequence even though he was let go after 5 years.

I suppose it depends on the academy, but I know that the high incidence of mental health issues amongst academy boys who are released without making the grade is very high and is of concern to the FA.  Great that the boy you know had a good experience though.

[Cowshed]

10 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

No one is telling kids to stop playing football, but with some noticeable exceptions it is often better for kids to stay at grassroots, rather than becoming just another number in the academies.  The time commitment of academies is such that there is almost no time for anything else and boys lose the opportunity to develop as individuals,  The experience of academies isn’t always what you might think it is and the opportunity often only leads to heartbreak at the most impressionable age.  The number of academy kids not making it into the full time game who are lost to football permanently is astonishing.

And it is not up to clubs to influence families to feel that playing Spartak in the AYL is preferable to being coached professionally. and play at the Etihad as my family member has. 

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

 

HNM, Nagy, Odowda, Josh, Palmer, Eliasson, DaSilva...it's like a group of Munchkins or elves :laugh:...not one of them is going to boss midfield physically.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this every time I watch us. We are one of the shortest clubs in the Championship. Not just short, but slightly built as well.

Nothing wrong with a few pocket dynamos: any football aficionado can reel off lists of dozens of little guys who've been big once they stepped on the pitch.

But it seems to me that players in this division in particular are getting taller and more broad-shouldered on average each season.  We just aren't.

You can draw the obvious conclusions.

[maxjak]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

I agree to some degree.

However...I do think LJ is restricted in many ways when it comes to recruitment.

The Club...not him, have said we want young hungry players that we can develop, either keep, or sell on at a profit. We aren't going to be mainly buying the finished article.

We have done in a few places...Hunt, Williams, Kalas, Weimann, Rowe...as an example, they all have reached their pinnacle imo.

We don't have an experienced DM that is top 6 standard. We rely on Nagy ( totally new to the Championship ) and HNM ( an 18 year old the same experience as Nagy )

Smith is not the answer in this department. He's a good Professional, but not one that will make us top 6.

Josh and Odowda are absolutely pants at defending. Odowda is powder puff weak, mentally and physically and loses the ball too often.  Josh is great offensively but can't tackle for toffee. Both go missing when defending.n

Palmer is also weak defensively. Awful concentration...young, still learning. Makes massive mistakes...but can see a pass. He has more negatives to the team than positives. Again not the finished article.

Eliasson...fantastic offensively...again, weak defensively, poor concentration. Can tackle, but lacks understanding on where to be in shape etc.

Famara...imo, is absolutely pants at this level. Causes more problems than he's worth. Loses the ball to frequently, doesn't wwork hard enough when pressing or defending from the front line and can't find a run of any worth. His positional understanding is awful. Weimann spends more time covering him. So a man wasted.

Then you have Moore and Pierra...both very young and inexperienced, and asking a lot to be top 6. They will make mistakes.

Imo...the defenders we have are fine. It's the rest of the positions that are unbalanced for a top 6 side.

The balance of players screams mid table....because so many of them are so young and inexperienced at the level required. Or in Famaras case...he doesn't fit.

You can say it's a reflection of LJ...which is true, but to some degree it's down to recruitment philosophy.

We are so physically weak in midfield as well as mentally it's no surprise we are so inconsistent.

HNM, Nagy, Odowda, Josh, Palmer, Eliasson, DaSilva...it's like a group of Munchkins or elves :laugh:...not one of them is going to boss midfield physically.

 

 

 

 

I always enjoy your posts, as they tend to articulate the way I often see things.  I know we are overladen with midfielders, but do you think it would be wise to recruit a physically imposing midfielder to add weight and strength to a area of the pitch in which we are often overun and outbattled?

[Drew Peacock]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

I'd forgotten all about him

Tbh...We are never going to know the full story when it comes to recruitment.

I've got a gut feeling not everyone has been LJ's signings. Based on what I've heard from people I trust. I got speaking recently to a lad that played for us in the Academy two seasons ago, ended up playing in Sweden, and has since packed in Football. He said he trained with Gustav...according to him it was an in house joke to how bad he was and common knowledge that LJ didn't rate him or want him.

You start to wonder.

He was a deadline panic buy because the striker we were trying to get fell through at the very last minute.

[BTRFTG]

22 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

He was a deadline panic buy because the striker we were trying to get fell through at the very last minute.

So did that make him the 4th or 5th deadline 'panic purchase' in the past few years? It's akin waiting for that new i-phone to be released, seeing it sell out and then buying a toaster thereafter  moaning it's useless at making and receiving calls......

[spudski]

Thanks for all the replies to my post chaps...not enough time to reply to them all...apologies. 

[Portland Bill]

12 hours ago, glen humphries said:

We leaked goals all season, yesterday we had a 8 million pound player getting bullied all game, a right back who can’t defend and Tommy Rowe who gives his all but isn’t championship quality, you start at the back if you want to be successful, we’re really poor in the most crucial area.

Plus a substitute left back who made no attempt whatsoever to stop the cross coming in for the winning goal.

A total lack of defensive desire. 

[CotswoldRed]

13 hours ago, Olé said:

I have to say, I said exactly this last night.

I posed the question how does a team with

1. the undoubted talent and record investment in good players
2. the relentless detailed coaching Johnson is routinely praised for

seem to make such a ridiculous number of basic mistakes game after game, which to my eyes, certainly recently, is the biggest difference between us and opponents - give the ball away, don't close down player, missed tackle, missed finish, misplaced pass. It's endemic and while I know confidence is part of it, these are the basics we're mainly talking about.

It can't be because they're rubbish players because see: 1. It can't be they're not coached or prepared properly on what to do, see 2 (unless the whole Johnson coaching pedigree as widely reported is a myth). So just maybe the problem is they're over-coached, they are not able to think about the basics as they're too busy trying to execute a complex game plan.

I don't know if that qualifies as Occam's Razor but "over thinking things" seems to me to make more sense as an explanation for this team's propensity for mistakes, than anything else: I really don't accept that these are poorly recruited players (Nagy and Massengo both look worse than when we signed them). I also don't buy the idea another striker fixes this.

Exactly what I've been saying for most of the season. In essence anyway. 

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, Dottie said:

It seems that they are playing to predetermined patterns & if that doesn’t work they have no idea how to improvise. 

Without technique (gained via practice) individuals cannot improvise. Improvisation itself in football is not spontaneous it is trained in - Experience leads to recognising patterns of play and responding to them in milliseconds (unconscious competence).

What you and others see can be a case of a need to train more deliberately. More focus on patterns and movement leading to faster decision making. 

   

[Natchfever]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Without technique (gained via practice) individuals cannot improvise. Improvisation itself in football is not spontaneous it is trained in - Experience leads to recognising patterns of play and responding to them in milliseconds (unconscious competence).

What you and others see can be a case of a need to train more deliberately. More focus on patterns and movement leading to faster decision making. 

   

Do you think then that the players might need technically better coaches to demonstrate and improve them in this area? 

Obvious I don't rate the current set up but this is a genuine question as you know your stuff. 

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Do you think then that the players might need technically better coaches to demonstrate and improve them in this area? 

Obvious I don't rate the current set up but this is a genuine question as you know your stuff. 

Not necessarily. Great coaches are obviously highly desirable but coaches follow direction - These are the tasks now train the players.

A lot of posts mention complexity. Some over thinking. Some mention over training. Over training can be mental fatigue. The brain can only accept so much information before its becomes less effective. Some top coaches feel players only can deal with several (the power of three's) tasks to focus on before mental fatigue lessens the effect of training.

Lee Johnsons football approach is complex. It is styles not style. It means logically players have to focus on multiple changing tasks due to the changing styles. Passing patterns for instance have to be trained in differing shapes for differing styles - Its a less effective means of learning.  

And that comes from the Head Coach/Manager not coaches. 

 

[Natchfever]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Not necessarily. Great coaches are obviously highly desirable but coaches follow direction - These are the tasks now train the players.

A lot of posts mention complexity. Some over thinking. Some mention over training. Over training can be mental fatigue. The brain can only accept so much information before its becomes less effective. Some top coaches feel players only can deal with several (the power of three's) tasks to focus on before mental fatigue lessens the effect of training.

Lee Johnsons football approach is complex. It is styles not style. It means logically players have to focus on multiple changing tasks due to the changing styles. Passing patterns for instance have to be trained in differing shapes for differing styles - Its a less effective means of learning.  

And that comes from the Head Coach/Manager not coaches. 

 

So does LJ possibly fail to recognise that his approach is flawed or do you know other head coaches with similar methods? 

[CotswoldRed]

3 hours ago, Natchfever said:

Do you think then that the players might need technically better coaches to demonstrate and improve them in this area? 

Obvious I don't rate the current set up but this is a genuine question as you know your stuff. 

I think the players don't actually believe in what's being drilled into them. 

[Natchfever]

10 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

I think the players don't actually believe in what's being drilled into them. 

It does have that look about it now. 

[Major Isewater]

On 27/12/2019 at 13:41, cityloyal473 said:

Oh come on, Afobe was not his first, second or third choice, let's not pretend otherwise.  And for Afobe I raise you Rodri, Diony et al. And as the poster above noted - O’Dowda.  What a waste of space the guy is and yet the club made his re-signing seem like we'd just got Messi.

If you think the squad is assembled incorrectly who is to blame for that?

We have regressed and continue to regress - the football has gotten progressively worse.  He continues to dine out on beating a second string United team. We will win Sunday and it'll buy him extra time and raise hopes again, until Brentford when it all becomes glaringly obvious again and we get a hammering at home.  Time for him to go.

Don’t rewrite history, since when have the world’s , onetime , most expensive World Cup winning player Pogba or , for that matter Record scorer Ibrahimović been second string players ?

We can berate him for certain things but there you are well out of line . 

[Olé]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Lee Johnsons football approach is complex. It is styles not style. It means logically players have to focus on multiple changing tasks due to the changing styles. Passing patterns for instance have to be trained in differing shapes for differing styles - Its a less effective means of learning.  

So this sounds a lot like the complexity I said our players were having to over think when they make their countless mistakes.

[bcfc01]

Don't get me wrong, LJs selections have sometimes defied logic and he should by now know his best team and how to line up - he's failed in that imo.

But half the season still to go and I think we are still in the race for the play offs - but LJ has to play his best players and go for it.

That means Nagy, Massengo, Brownhill, Eliasson, and Palmer in the team and build the rest around it - they are the best players we have.

We have very good options in defence but LJ needs to be a bit more ruthless in selection and that means Moore in for Kalas imo. Moore has more potential and is in form, Kalas plainly isn't. If three at the back then round pegs in round holes - Moore right, Williams middle, Baker left.

But it probably won't happen as Kalas was 8m and has to play, and the mistakes of previous seasons will see LJ be reactive to defeats and changing personnel and formation instead of proactive in approaching games and concentrating on our positives rather than the oppositions dangers. If so, no chance whatsoever of playoffs. It really seems to me that whatever players he has at his disposal, he doesn't trust them. 

I will be surprised if SL sanctioned any major January signings - he's sanctioned enough and we have one of the best squad of players in this division imo. Whether we have a decent team is another matter and that is down to the manager.

Sorry for the ramble..

 

.

 

 

 

 

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, Natchfever said:

So does LJ possibly fail to recognise that his approach is flawed or do you know other head coaches with similar methods? 

It would be insulting Mr Johnson to call him clueless etc, he will have a thorough understanding of the fundamentals.. The answer to the second part of the question is no due to his portentous statements not marrying with reality. 

[Spud55]

On 27/12/2019 at 12:15, downendcity said:

I've always thought that in good teams good defence starts at the front. 

Its not just pressing, it's when you are attacking having players able to hold the ball and build attacking pressure. 

We seem to continually be punished for players making a mistake when in the attacking third, when our players are pushing forward and out of position, and a few quick passes later our then stretched  defence is exposed. 

Strangely we seem unable to exact the same punishment on opposition teams, as our counter attacks can be timed on a calender! 

While I'm not in the LJ outcamp (yet) I agree that this latest run of defeats feels different. 2 poor home performances then this defeat, to a depletedvteam without a win in 3 months has to put pressure on the coach, given the quality in the squad. 

I've long felt that too often we are a team playing with the handbrake on, where players are curtailing their natural instincts. I understand that players need to play discipline but, as has already been commented, why do so many seem shadows of the players they were only a few months ago? 

 

 

 

It's when we give the ball away that is so often the key, we almost always give it away at the point of transition, be that when turning defence into attack meaning that the majority of the side are breaking forward and suddenly the ball is gone and half the team are out of position. Or we do it when transitioning from possession in the final third to pushing forward to get in a cross. 

Although difficult to see on telly, Charlton first goal looks like it came from such a situation, we have possession, Rowe (I think it was Rowe) breaks forward to attack the byline and presumably put in a cross, now due to this the centre backs are moving forward to take up position in Charlton half, the absolute last thing they are expecting is within a few seconds having a ball pinged over the top.

We may not always retain possession in that situation but there is no way in hell that we should be allowing 2 passes one of which is a chipped ball over the top. Yes the defence were out of position when the ball over the top was played but so they should be as we should not be simply presenting the ball to the opposition in that situation. 

Blackburn second goal the same, we are 1-0 down so pushing forward anyway and we have the ball and are transitioning forward, meaning that the defenders have moved up the pitch leaving Massengo as the last man basically as nobody could conceivably expect Brownhill to play the worst 5 yard pass in years and put Massengo right up shits creek. 

Large amounts of this comes from continuity of personnel, because the team changes every 5 minutes they have not learned how to play together and know what the others are going to do. When you hear the top Pros and managers speak you can break football down into 5 partnerships that are pivotal, your 2 centre backs, right back and right wing, left back and left wing, 2 cm and 2 cf (obviously this is for a 4-4-2 but the principle remains for all formations) the more you play together the more you understand how each other play. 

I would argue that we have 0 or these partnerships as we have not played a stable side or system at all meaning that of course we are giving the ball away stupidly as players are playing passes for runs that haven't been made and runs are being made for passes that will not be played. 

This all comes down to 1 man, and he needs to get his head out of his arse and pick a system and team and stick with it. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

43 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

 

This all comes down to 1 man, and he needs to get his head out of his arse and pick a system and team and stick with it. 

Too bloody right, mate. Bang on.

And when this approach results in pretty much the same/what we are seeing now/goes nowhere, he needs to get his head out of his arse again and stop being so stubborn, develop a plan B, try another club in the bag and drop a few of the undroppables.

But will he listen?

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 27/12/2019 at 16:45, Red-Robbo said:

 

I think this every time I watch us. We are one of the shortest clubs in the Championship. Not just short, but slightly built as well.

Nothing wrong with a few pocket dynamos: any football aficionado can reel off lists of dozens of little guys who've been big once they stepped on the pitch.

But it seems to me that players in this division in particular are getting taller and more broad-shouldered on average each season.  We just aren't.

You can draw the obvious conclusions.

Will tag @spudski in this one too. 

Is this true tho? I mean, are footballing sides full if these types of players- especially in midfield and the wing/wide midfield areas? Not so sure! 

Might be worth looking at oh I don't know, WBA, Leeds, Brentford, Fulham. Then ours. There at least as per Wiki and Sofascore isn't a huge difference. 

Fleck, Norwood, Dowell and Duffy...did  quick search other day, only one of them was 6 ft or above.

Research in more depth would of course be required but it's worth checking these out. Land of the giants they aren't...can be a bit of a red herring IMO!

[Red-Robbo]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Will tag @spudski in this one too. 

Is this true tho? I mean, are footballing sides full if these types of players- especially in midfield and the wing/wide midfield areas? Not so sure! 

Might be worth looking at oh I don't know, WBA, Leeds, Brentford, Fulham. Then ours. There at least as per Wiki and Sofascore isn't a huge difference. 

Fleck, Norwood, Dowell and Duffy...did  quick search other day, only one of them was 6 ft or above.

Research in more depth would of course be required but it's worth checking these out. Land of the giants they aren't...can be a bit of a red herring IMO!

It's to do with musculature as much as height. See us today and we'll look shorter and lighter on average than Luton. And we will get bullied off the ball unless we pass double quick. Seen it time and time again this season.

Incidentally, you can't always trust the heights given on stat sites. For example, according to most sites Weimann is 6ft 1 1/2ins. Well I've stood next to him and that must make me about 6ft 6ins!  He's under 6ft.