The Coronavirus and its impact on sport/Fans Return (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, James54De said:

Hahaha. Like they did against lockdown, etc. Strange how your argument has fallen apart so quickly. Presume you have had the vaccine? 

There's always a tipping point...severe backlash potentially on the cards, this could be one.

The French, say what you will but...they let their views be known!

If literally a large minority choose not to comply, again see the Polltax. Had the vaccine? Maybe, or maybe not.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[James54De]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There's always a tipping point...severe backlash potentially on the cards, this could be one.

The French, say what you will but...they let their views be known!

If literally a large minority choose not to comply, again see the Polltax. Had the vaccine? Maybe, or maybe not.

If you haven't, all I can do is urge you to go and get one. Protect Yourself, Protect Others. Oh, and I'm sure you want to get down Ashton Gate after September. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, James54De said:

If you haven't, all I can do is urge you to go and get one. Protect Yourself, Protect Others. Oh, and I'm sure you want to get down Ashton Gate after September. 

Watch for the backlash- substantial minority and non compliance can mean problems, not that I advocate it of course.

The French certainly let their views be known, admirable.

Anyway maybe not at AG but in nightclubs certainly, I foresee issues if they try and enforce. Maybe off topic.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[James54De]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Watch for the backlash- substantial minority and non compliance can mean problems, not that I advocate it of course.

The French certainly let their views be known, admirable.

Anyway maybe not at AG but in nightclubs certainly, I foresee issues if they try and enforce. Maybe off topic.

I'll watch. you're turning into @openEnd

[LondonBristolian]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Watch for the backlash- substantial minority and non compliance can mean problems, not that I advocate it of course.

The French certainly let their views be known, admirable.

Anyway maybe not at AG but in nightclubs certainly, I foresee issues if they try and enforce. Maybe off topic.

Where is your evidence of a substantial minority of French people making their views known? All you have posted to is one protest and some thugs trying to obtain their aims by violence and intimidation by setting fire to vaccine centres. Arson does not take a substantial minority to do.

I agree with you that, if enough people object to a law, they can influence it. But, one thing we have seen with the vaccine take-up across over 40 age groups is that vaccine take up has been high and relatively few people have refused to have one. In under 30s, the evidence to date suggests the major obstacle to take up is people not prioritising having a jab, rather than strongly objecting to have one.

France has much higher vaccine skepticism than the UK. I’m not convinced the rules the UK government have brought in this week are the best approach to take but I am far less convinced on either

a) the argument they are unlawful and discriminatory (as long as the government makes adjustments for people who cannot have vaccines due to health conditions, which they have said they will do)

or

b) the fantasy of the plans being derailed by an uprising of anti-vaccine protests. People who are anti-vaccine are a much smaller minority in the UK than France or the US and, even when people oppose things, it is a far smaller minority again that actively go out and protest. 
 

If they try to enforce, most people will simply grumble for a bit and then get vaccinated.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by LondonBristolian

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Where is your evidence of a substantial minority of French people making their views known? All you have posted to is one protest and some thugs trying to obtain their aims by violence and intimidation by setting fire to vaccine centres. Arson does not take a substantial minority to do.

I agree with you that, if enough people object to a law, they can influence it. But, one thing we have seen with the vaccine take-up across over 40 age groups is that vaccine take up has been high and relatively few people have refused to have one. In under 30s, the evidence to date suggests the major obstacle to take up is people not prioritising having a jab, rather than strongly objecting to have one.

France has much higher vaccine skepticism than the UK. I’m not convinced the rules the UK government have brought in this week are the best approach to take but I am far less convinced on either

a) the argument they are unlawful and discriminatory (as long as the government makes adjustments for people who cannot have vaccines due to health conditions, which they have said they will do)

or

b) the fantasy of the plans being derailed by an uprising of anti-vaccine protests. People who are anti-vaccine are a much smaller minority in the UK than France or the US and, even when people oppose things, it is a far smaller minority again that actively go out and protest. 
 

If they try to enforce, most people will simply get vaccinated.

 

Time will tell. 1/4 or 1/3 say could constitute a significant problem. Read that 2/3 approval there which means up to 1/3 might not.

Long history of vaccine scepticism there IIRC, as you say.

Not so much rise up as out and out refuse to comply. I didn't get round to it hence don't have the NHS App on my phone, never have tbh but will still of course comply with what is necessary, be responsible etc.

4 hours ago, James54De said:

I'll watch. you're turning into @openEnd

Tory or Astrazeneca/Pharma lackey? Not altogether familiar with that poster...

Young have done their bit anyway, will be interesting to see compliance when it actually comes in. This measure of the nightclubs eg primarily aimed at them.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[MarcusX]

On 20/07/2021 at 20:09, Betty Swallocks said:

You can only get a ping if you have the app…..

Why wouldn't you want the app?

 

Interesting article today, albeit sportsbible so hardly a top level source:

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-premier-league-players-and-staff-will-have-to-get-covid-vaccinations-20210722

Vaccines mandatory for Premier League players and staff. At least we know we wont be losing Wells to a Prem club this window!

[Betty Swallocks]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

Why wouldn't you want the app?

 

Interesting article today, albeit sportsbible so hardly a top level source:

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-premier-league-players-and-staff-will-have-to-get-covid-vaccinations-20210722

Vaccines mandatory for Premier League players and staff. At least we know we wont be losing Wells to a Prem club this window!

My app went the day I was pinged because someone in the flat below, who I hadn’t had any contact with, had caught the virus. 

[Bristol Rob]

50 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

I think people have been calling this 'whataboutery' in other threads I have read. You have a fair chance of being infected from vaccinated people so to single me out as some sort of super spreader is a little unfair unless you can back it up with numbers (which I don't think you can.) I might be somewhat more risky overall but if you have had the vaccine you should reduce your risk of getting sick, people who can't get the jab for health reasons would face the same problems either way if it was only the vaccinated allowed.

Personally I wouldn't go to the game if I was coughing all over the place (at least not for a friendly, joking before I scare anyone) but also I don't think double vaccinated people should either. Vaccine passports as well as not being ethical don't make a great deal of sense either. The club should not be in the business of bringing them in voluntarily unless their actual usefulness can be proved.

A single dose of the vaccine reduces the risk of spreading it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half

 

[Baba Yaga]

39 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I did say that I was exaggerating, and I certainly wasn’t singling you out as a superspreader (tho you’ve probably been called worse on here!). It wouldn’t particularly worry me if you were at the Blackpool game (not going to Villa!) because although we may not always agree about things you seem like a reasonably sensible and responsible person so I don’t doubt you’d not come if you were coughing everywhere. I’d probably rather you weren’t sat behind me - you don’t sit in the Dolman do you? - only joking! 

But I’m also very aware that there are others who just aren’t that responsible, and a small minority who revel in being irresponsible and that Bristol now has very high rates of infection. And I’m at an age where although the vaccine has reduced my risks, they are still more than minimal. And that’s why I’m not comfortable: I used that word deliberately - I’m not adamantly ‘covid app or no access’ but I’ll still be wary. And I agree with your final point about the usefulness of any restrictions - which is really why I think it’s wrong for government to pass the buck to individual businesses - how are Bristol City meant to make that judgement? 

People want to reduce risk which makes sense. But when you are comparing 2 risk levels that are completely arbitrary and f9r the most part unknown then I have to question if people's concerns are completely rational.

Agreed that BCFC are in a difficult position and can't keep everyone happy, if they have to bring in covid passports if I was them I wouldn't want to be seen as wanting to bring them in. I really hope they don't happen because I hate the idea of them, last week people were telling people with my views to stop whinging because it's only a qr code, we have seen in the space of a week this has already been disproven because it has moved on to you must be jabbed supposedly, once the system has been universally adopted I'm sure it wouldn't end there either.

12 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

A single dose of the vaccine reduces the risk of spreading it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half

 

I think thats from April so before the delta variant? Sounds like a thorough study to be fair but not sure how long it could be realistically considered valid for.

[italian dave]

7 hours ago, Will b11 said:

Thrilled by this , as said by someone above it’s your own choice now and I’m glad we’re back to normal life , hopefully it stays like this for all the league/cup games aswell , roll on the start of the season. 

Normal???

With Bristol’s infection rate, the Blackpool game could see dozens of people get ill as a result of going to the game, a number of them ending up in hospital, as well as hundreds getting pinged, many of whom will be unable to go to work as a result. And all having to miss the next game(s).

That doesn’t sound like ‘normal’ to me. 

[TheReds]

58 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Normal???

With Bristol’s infection rate, the Blackpool game could see dozens of people get ill as a result of going to the game, a number of them ending up in hospital, as well as hundreds getting pinged, many of whom will be unable to go to work as a result. And all having to miss the next game(s).

That doesn’t sound like ‘normal’ to me. 

There will be many, many double jabbed people with the virus carrying it around with them and passing it on - and I expect multiple double jabbed people in Ashton Gate carrying it. At what point are you going to say to yourself "I have done everything I possibly can for myself so have to get on with it"? If you think you are never going to say that, then prepare yourself for avoiding pretty much everywhere where there are people present, as this virus isn't going away. After September I doubt there will be many more people taking up the offer of having the vaccine if they haven't already, so that really has to be the end of any restrictions, unless you want to ban unvaccinated people (many who cannot have it) from everything that you do.

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, TheReds said:

There will be many, many double jabbed people with the virus carrying it around with them and passing it on - and I expect multiple double jabbed people in Ashton Gate carrying it. At what point are you going to say to yourself "I have done everything I possibly can for myself so have to get on with it"? If you think you are never going to say that, then prepare yourself for avoiding pretty much everywhere where there are people present, as this virus isn't going away. After September I doubt there will be many more people taking up the offer of having the vaccine if they haven't already, so that really has to be the end of any restrictions, unless you want to ban unvaccinated people (many who cannot have it) from everything that you do.

I don’t know what all the answers are.

I was just trying to make the point that it’s nonsense to talk about “going back to normal” when we are in the middle of a global pandemic.

We all want ‘normal’ back, but it’s not going to happen in August.

Yes, banning the unvaccinated from doing anything is one extreme of the potential responses. But just carrying on and trying to pretend it’s not happening is just as extreme the other way. 

[italian dave]

Maybe the solution is as simple as making the vaccine passport blue

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/covid-vaccine-polling-hesitancy-support-brexit-voter-leave-oxford-university/

[TheReds]

47 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I don’t know what all the answers are.

I was just trying to make the point that it’s nonsense to talk about “going back to normal” when we are in the middle of a global pandemic.

We all want ‘normal’ back, but it’s not going to happen in August.

Yes, banning the unvaccinated from doing anything is one extreme of the potential responses. But just carrying on and trying to pretend it’s not happening is just as extreme the other way. 

But the vaccine is never going away, and many will never be vaccinated, including people who simply cannot have it. So at what point do you think we should go back to normal, as in how many deaths/hospitalisations are acceptable?   

[italian dave]

1 minute ago, TheReds said:

But the vaccine is never going away, and many will never be vaccinated, including people who simply cannot have it. So at what point do you think we should go back to normal, as in how many deaths/hospitalisations are acceptable?   

Like I said, I don't have all the answers.

I just know that August - while we have an ongoing global pandemic, peak case numbers here, barely half the population vaccinated - isn't going to be "normal" as we knew it - and I'd hope it's not going to be 'normal' going forward.

There seem to be two potential scenarios: either it goes away in a year or so, which would mean we go back to the normal we knew, but seems unlikely. Or we have to "live with it" but that will mean a new 'normal'. I don't agree with those who see this as just being like flu. People don't get "long flu", people don't suffer long term organ damage as a result of flu, people in their mid 20s don't have strokes as a result of flu (BBC News this morning). 

I don't think anyone knows what that new normal might like look like. But it's quite conceivable that it could include incentivisation to get vaccinated/restrictions if not. The 'some people cant have it' is a complete red herring: that's the case with a great many of the things we take for granted and there will be ways of managing that. 

As I say, I don't know what it looks like. But I honestly don't think you can pretend that going back to Ashton Gate for the Blackpool game will be just like going to the first home game in August 2019.

[Nogbad the Bad]

14 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Like I said, I don't have all the answers.

I just know that August - while we have an ongoing global pandemic, peak case numbers here, barely half the population vaccinated - isn't going to be "normal" as we knew it - and I'd hope it's not going to be 'normal' going forward.

There seem to be two potential scenarios: either it goes away in a year or so, which would mean we go back to the normal we knew, but seems unlikely. Or we have to "live with it" but that will mean a new 'normal'. I don't agree with those who see this as just being like flu. People don't get "long flu", people don't suffer long term organ damage as a result of flu, people in their mid 20s don't have strokes as a result of flu (BBC News this morning). 

 

Other viruses can have detrimental long term effects.

Flu can kill of course, but the debilitating, long term ME, or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, has long been associated with viral infections, with about 260k known cases in the UK, or 1 in 250 of the population.

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Other viruses can have detrimental long term effects.

Flu can kill of course, but the debilitating, long term ME, or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, has long been associated with viral infections, with about 260k known cases in the UK, or 1 in 250 of the population.

All true. But I don't think alters what I've said above.

And I doubt many people have ever been to watch a match at Ashton Gate with the realistic possibility that one of those things might be the outcome.

[Baba Yaga]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

I’m not sure what’s changed; have I missed something? You just wave your QR code at a reader on the way in? (I appreciate there’s a few weeks to go until everyone will have been able to get two jabs hence the test option).

Yes, regular boosters seem likely to be required, I think that’s been anticipated all along hasn’t it? 

I wondered why you were so keen on data from Israel, then I came across this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/19/vaccine-skeptics-zero-israel-again-some-reason/

 

 

The difference is that the rules changes were proposed by Boris so people could longer use tests to go to mass events. Once the vaccine passports are in place the goalposts can keep changing. I'm not comfortable with a new normal where if you don't take your unlicensed medication you are shut out from parts of society and it continues every 6 months or so, the green pass is being used again in Israel from next week which is a good source because they are generally ahead of us in the vax programme, if we look at them we can anticipate what will happen next here.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-uk-data-offer-mixed-signals-on-vaccines-potency-against-delta-strain/

Here's another link from my favourite country  Israel saying the Pfizer jab is 41% effective (against symptomatic transmission) and the UK is saying it's 88% effective. I wonder if the Washington Post will report that? Who are the scientists here and who are the vaccine sales reps posing as scientists?

Edited July 23, 2021 by Baba Yaga

[pillred]

2 hours ago, TheReds said:

There will be many, many double jabbed people with the virus carrying it around with them and passing it on - and I expect multiple double jabbed people in Ashton Gate carrying it. At what point are you going to say to yourself "I have done everything I possibly can for myself so have to get on with it"? If you think you are never going to say that, then prepare yourself for avoiding pretty much everywhere where there are people present, as this virus isn't going away. After September I doubt there will be many more people taking up the offer of having the vaccine if they haven't already, so that really has to be the end of any restrictions, unless you want to ban unvaccinated people (many who cannot have it) from everything that you do.

I think if restrictions on unvaccinated people come in (and it's beginning to look inevitable) expect a big rush of people currently saying they don't want the vaccine.

[Nogbad the Bad]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

All true. But I don't think alters what I've said above.

And I doubt many people have ever been to watch a match at Ashton Gate with the realistic possibility that one of those things might be the outcome.

Of course they have.

We know flu can kill, and have serious long term effects, and it circulates widely every Winter, including at AG.

All we can do is get innoculated if we feel at extra risk, but as with Covid that does not provide anything like full protection.

We either accept there is always a risk in existing in daily life or we stop going to Ashton Gate, stop going to the pub, stop socialising altogether, and organise our lives so as to come into contact with as few people as possible.

Some people seem content with the prospect of repetitive lockdowns and endless restrictions, but that is not only economically impractical, it is for many people psychologically catastrophic.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Nogbad the Bad

[pillred]

54 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Like I said, I don't have all the answers.

I just know that August - while we have an ongoing global pandemic, peak case numbers here, barely half the population vaccinated - isn't going to be "normal" as we knew it - and I'd hope it's not going to be 'normal' going forward.

There seem to be two potential scenarios: either it goes away in a year or so, which would mean we go back to the normal we knew, but seems unlikely. Or we have to "live with it" but that will mean a new 'normal'. I don't agree with those who see this as just being like flu. People don't get "long flu", people don't suffer long term organ damage as a result of flu, people in their mid 20s don't have strokes as a result of flu (BBC News this morning). 

I don't think anyone knows what that new normal might like look like. But it's quite conceivable that it could include incentivisation to get vaccinated/restrictions if not. The 'some people cant have it' is a complete red herring: that's the case with a great many of the things we take for granted and there will be ways of managing that. 

As I say, I don't know what it looks like. But I honestly don't think you can pretend that going back to Ashton Gate for the Blackpool game will be just like going to the first home game in August 2019.

Currently 85% of adults have had first vaccination and nearly 70% their second, hardly barely half is it. I don't know if you are including children in your figure though. 

[italian dave]

21 minutes ago, pillred said:

Currently 85% of adults have had first vaccination and nearly 70% their second, hardly barely half is it. I don't know if you are including children in your figure though. 

Yes - barley half the population is what I said.  The virus doesn't distinguish between a 17 year old and a 19 year old. 

I know that the government publishes the figures "...of the adult population" partly because that sounds better and partly - to be fair - because its measure against who's been offered the vaccine. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by italian dave

[MarcusX]

19 hours ago, RedM said:

Just announced, no vaccine passport of negative test result needed. No social distancing. Asking people to wear a mask whilst moving around

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/ashton-gate-protocols-for-aston-villa/

At risk of starting / continuing another debate, that seems mental giving the current climate

I wonder how many people will stay away because they wont feel safe?

You can say what you want about the vaccines, yes they are preventing deaths and thats great but it can still make you quite ill and it's a bit unpleasant - plus then taking that back to your partner / family and knock on effects.

Of course it's difficult to insist on vaccine passport as not everyone has had the jab, and there's no legal requirement to do so. I'd have thought a negative test at least (even if that can be manipulated)

[MarcusX]

14 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

A single dose of the vaccine reduces the risk of spreading it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half

 

I've had 1 jab, shared a car with 2 people and only 1 of them caught it. Anecdotally that 50% is spot on 

[italian dave]

29 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Of course they have.

We know flu can kill, and have serious long term effects, and it circulates widely every Winter, including at AG.

All we can do is get innoculated if we feel at extra risk, but as with Covid that does not provide anything like full protection.

We either accept there is always a risk in existing in daily life or we stop going to Ashton Gate, stop going to the pub, stop socialising altogether, and organise our lives so as to come into contact with as few people as possible.

Some people seem content with the prospect of repetitive lockdowns and endless restrictions, but that is not only economically impractical, it is for many people psychologically catastrophic.

 

 

 

Of course. But it doesn't kill to the same degree as covid. It doesn't have the same serious long term consequences to the same degree as covid. (It also doesn't spread as easily as covid, especially delta covid). And in terms of community transmission its nowhere near the same case numbers as Bristol currently has of covid. 

Of course there's a risk every time we cross the road. And a risk of catching flu when you go to AG. But neither, I'd suggest, are anything like the risk currently around covid - given the case numbers in Bristol and the potential consequences at this point in time.

Would you have had no restrictions at all, right from day 1? If so, I think you'd have been foolish. If not then it just becomes a judgement call when is the right time to adjust, and how. 

I don't know anyone who is "content with the prospect of repetitive lockdowns and endless restrictions". Do you?

If ending all restrictions results in 100s of 1000s of people getting the virus every week and millions having to isolate - does that do anything for the economy or for people's physical or mental health?

I repeat what I said earlier: I'm not suggesting that I have all the answers - but I am suggesting that things are not 'normal'. And you only have to look at the people just on here with concerns and reservations about going to watch a football match to see that.

[Red Exile]

The bottom line, surely, is that the government has decided to let the virus let rip. In a world in which everything is voluntary there are more or less no robust preventative measures in place. The 'ping-demic' is simply a reflection of the prevelance of the disease. I've been pinged myself - on holiday in St Ives at the time of the G7...two of us were, in a party of 4. No logic to why it was us two - must simply have spent time in a shop or the street next to someone who tested positive.

I can't see myself going to the Gate any time soon if the club has no controls whatever. I don't blame the club for that. We're all living through a massive public health failure overseen by one of the most incompetent governments the country has ever had. There will be lots of things I'll not be doing - going to the pub or taking public transport where I can avoid it being others. Going to a match is a hobby, a bit of fun, I can't see me risking bringing a life threatening disease home to my wife for the sake of watching City.

 

[Riaz]

16 hours ago, italian dave said:

Which is also why I’m not comfortable with the “if you don’t like it stay at home” suggestion.

If I’m prepared to get myself jabbed, take a test, and wear a mask to protect those around me, I don’t really see why I should have to sit next to someone who is dubious about vaccines and doesn’t think masks work (I’m exaggerating BY!) and may be coughing huge viral loads of covid over me.

And not sure why I should be the one expected to stay at home. 

You believe in this vaccine and trust it.

I dont.

Why does your opinion matter more than mine?

[Steve Watts]

16 hours ago, italian dave said:

It’s not quite that simple though, is it? The government may have removed the statutory requirements, but advice to businesses is still there and includes

- carrying out risk assessments and taking reasonable steps to mitigate risks (and that would have some statutory backing in terms of general duties of care under H&S legislation

- ensuring that customers who are unwell do not attend the venue

- “we encourage organisations in certain settings to use the NHS covid pass as a condition of entry….especially in large crowded settings”

So, there are some requirements, and more expectations. Personally I don’t think it’s right for government to pass the buck to business in this way, but that’s what they’ve done. And so it’s not quite true to say that measures are no longer ever required. 

100% this.  All they've done is tried to give themselves an excuse when it all surges further and we head for another lockdown by saying..."Well we did advise you to do this and that.  Not our fault you didn't ensure our advice was followed."

14 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

You said it yourself. It is advice only. A football club or other organisation have no legal grounds to stop someone entering if they are not wearing a mask, been jabbed or taken a test. Those were not the stated requirements when you bought a season ticket. Legally the club / organisation would lose every case brought against it for barring entry on those grounds. Therefore the advice us for people to be sensible enough to do what they think is best re mask wearing, time spent in busy concourses etc. 

A football club has every right to stop someone entering if they are not wearing a mask, been jabbed or taken a test.  It's private premises and they are free to change their ground policies at any time they wish, including conditions of entry.  If they decide that they won't allow people onto their private premises in this scenario then actually you would have no legal angle to battle them with.

[wayne allisons tongues]

42 minutes ago, pillred said:

Currently 85% of adults have had first vaccination and nearly 70% their second, hardly barely half is it. I don't know if you are including children in your figure though. 

Think he’s including children. Just over 50% of whole population had two jab. About 15 to 16 million will not be eligible which is roughly 22%. That then leads to the question what % needed for herd immunity or the 22% get it and we hope it starts to die out.