A rebuild in central midfield is needed

[marcofisher]

Possibly a topic that everyone has differing opinions about is our midfield.

IMO those central midfield spots, not including attacking midfielders such as Palmer and Pato, are the ones that really need freshening up next season. While Lee's tactics may be equally to blame, it has become clear since Brownhill left that this is a serious weakness in the squad.

This is how I feel about it, on the assumption that we will still be in the Championship:

Smith - Perhaps he has has too many injuries in the last two seasons, but he has not looked up to it since coming back. 1 Year deal on reduced terms to see if he can recapture his previous level or see you later and reinvest. I do feel like our fans are blinded by an understandable admiration to Korey to his limitations.

Nagy - Jury's out. Next year will really be the acid test. Should be given the chance to see if he can stay fit and be an asset to the squad.

Massengo - Not up to it YET, while he has the biggest ceiling in our squad, he gets bullied easily in midfield and is not up to the pace of the league. Had exceptional games against Fulham and Huddersfield early in the season, but every team has had his number since. Needs a loan to league 1 like Walsh and Morrell. It is irrelevant where he came from or his price tag, the boy is still only 18 and still has plenty of time to reach this level. It would be of further detriment to keep him in the squad when he is not ready on the basis of his reputation rather than current ability.

Walsh - Exceptional season for a league 1 winning Cov. Has passed all the stages that  you would expect of him on his development pathway. Personally, I think it would be criminal should he not be part of the squad next season to fill the void left by Brownhill. He has shown he is ready for a chance and it would make a mockery of the development pathway if underperforming players such as Massengo are kept in ahead of him.

Morrell - Seemed to impress out on loan and has become a Wales international since. No reason why he couldn't come in as a squad player and as a potential replacement for Smith. 

Henriksen - Think it is clear that he won't be here. 

Getting Smith and Massengo (on loan) off the wage bill should leave us room to manoeuvre on the market to bring in another talented midfielder.

Currently, I don't consider a single one of our midfielders to be of top half Championship standard.

What are your thoughts?

[joe jordans teeth]

2 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Possibly a topic that everyone has differing opinions about is our midfield.

IMO those central midfield spots, not including attacking midfielders such as Palmer and Pato, are the ones that really need freshening up next season. While Lee's tactics may be equally to blame, it has become clear since Brownhill left that this is a serious weakness in the squad.

This is how I feel about it, on the assumption that we will still be in the Championship:

Smith - Perhaps he has has too many injuries in the last two seasons, but he has not looked up to it since coming back. 1 Year deal on reduced terms to see if he can recapture his previous level or see you later and reinvest. I do feel like our fans are blinded by an understandable admiration to Korey to his limitations.

Nagy - Jury's out. Next year will really be the acid test. Should be given the chance to see if he can stay fit and be an asset to the squad.

Massengo - Not up to it YET, while he has the biggest ceiling in our squad, he gets bullied easily in midfield and is not up to the pace of the league. Had exceptional games against Fulham and Huddersfield early in the season, but every team has had his number since. Needs a loan to league 1 like Walsh and Morrell. It is irrelevant where he came from or his price tag, the boy is still only 18 and still has plenty of time to reach this level. It would be of further detriment to keep him in the squad when he is not ready on the basis of his reputation rather than current ability.

Walsh - Exceptional season for a league 1 winning Cov. Has passed all the stages that  you would expect of him on his development pathway. Personally, I think it would be criminal should he not be part of the squad next season to fill the void left by Brownhill. He has shown he is ready for a chance and it would make a mockery of the development pathway if underperforming players such as Massengo are kept in ahead of him.

Morrell - Seemed to impress out on loan and has become a Wales international since. No reason why he couldn't come in as a squad player and as a potential replacement for Smith. 

Henriksen - Think it is clear that he won't be here. 

Getting Smith and Massengo (on loan) off the wage bill should leave us room to manoeuvre on the market to bring in another talented midfielder.

Currently, I don't consider a single one of our midfielders to be of top half Championship standard.

What are your thoughts?

Go back to simple things before we start worrying about all that,play your best keeper and players in their right positions 

[BCFCGav]

Can’t argue with any of that. Very tidy midfield assessment. 

[Lrrr]

Think you're too quick on Massengo there a lot of the players we've bought in have taken a season to get up to speed, he's developed physically over the break so I'd like for him to be around for next season however I think he could take over Korey's role if we don't keep him on. You highlight Morrell as a Smith replacement but he's got forward for Lincoln more than Smith gets forward for us. 

The only kind of midfielder I'd want to see us bring in is an out and out ball winner but perhaps Vyner could fill that if LJ sees him as an option. The quantity we have should mean Pato/COD can focus on playing as wingers rather than being played through the middle. 

[Lez]

Fair points, as for Nagy wouldn't surprise me if he goes.....not convinced that he really wants to be here.

[bristolcitysweden]

Not getting Morrell back in January was a criminal act

[marcofisher]

3 minutes ago, hodge said:

Think you're too quick on Massengo there a lot of the players we've bought in have taken a season to get up to speed, he's developed physically over the break so I'd like for him to be around for next season however I think he could take over Korey's role if we don't keep him on. You highlight Morrell as a Smith replacement but he's got forward for Lincoln more than Smith gets forward for us. 

The only kind of midfield I'd want to see us bring in is an out and out ball winner but perhaps Vyner could fill that if LJ sees him as an option. The quantity we have should mean Pato/COD can focus on playing as wingers rather than being played through the middle. 

I don't think so, he has had an entire season of football now. There is no reason why he couldn't just go on loan for half a season even. Maybe one to consider in preseason but I don't consider it a bad thing to drop him a level if it will benefit him more in the future. It has worked well for Morrell and Walsh who have increased their stock dramatically. 

[Davefevs]

My first thought is I don’t think the focus should be the middle two, but if you’re gonna critique them, you must include the ones on the outside of them and in today’s case the one in front.

It was brave / stupid (you decide) whether to go with 2 wingers today....and play them as wingers.  We all know it leaves a central 2 being outnumbered.

We go back to Bryan and Brownhill, they knew when to tuck in, when to make it a compact 3 or 4.

Eliasson, especially has no / little football intelligence, it’s a really big problem when he plays.  Pereira did relatively well first half today, but Eliasson exposes him so much.  O’Dowda had a normal game today.  He’s had so many chances, but just flits around, falls over, gives fouls away because he’s never quite in it to impact a tackle / interception.  I really hoped to see him flying forward into space.

Paterson, was ok, but won’t do the hard yards when you need him to sit in.  He’s a master of pointing for someone else to do his running.  He did ok on the ball, and scored a good header.

So that’s 3 other players really making it tough for Smith and Massengo.  The players we have in CM are all good enough individually, but you have to question how to get the best out of them.

Ditch the wingers imho.  A bit of Sir Alf possibly...find midfielders who can play off centre.  Brownhill mk2.  Tinnion mk2, etc.  Or midfielders with intelligence.

[marcofisher]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I think Korey is still a very good player.

Nagy looks far too weak off the ball. No aggression.

Morrell and Walsh excite me. Both talkers, both want the ball, both aggressive, both very tidy on the ball especially Walsh.

Remains to be seen. Like I said, if he wants to accept a reduced 1 year deal we should give it to him but don't think we should be busting a gut to keep him. 

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

My first thought is I don’t think the focus should be the middle two, but if you’re gonna critique them, you must include the ones on the outside of them and in today’s case the one in front.

It was brave / stupid (you decide) whether to go with 2 wingers today....and play them as wingers.  We all know it leaves a central 2 being outnumbered.

We go back to Bryan and Brownhill, they knew when to tuck in, when to make it a compact 3 or 4.

Eliasson, especially has no / little football intelligence, it’s a really big problem when he plays.  Pereira did relatively well first half today, but Eliasson exposes him so much.  O’Dowda had a normal game today.  He’s had so many chances, but just flits around, falls over, gives fouls away because he’s never quite in it to impact a tackle / interception.  I really hoped to see him flying forward into space.

Paterson, was ok, but won’t do the hard yards when you need him to sit in.  He’s a master of pointing for someone else to do his running.  He did ok on the ball, and scored a good header.

So that’s 3 other players really making it tough for Smith and Massengo.  The players we have in CM are all good enough individually, but you have to question how to get the best out of them.

Ditch the wingers imho.  A bit of Sir Alf possibly...find midfielders who can play off centre.  Brownhill mk2.  Tinnion mk2, etc.  Or midfielders with intelligence.

Physically though, it is undeniable they are not physically there for the battle. Massengo has been bullied twice now this season by Blackburn. This would not change much if we played with a three, he would still be physically knocked off the ball and bullied in the air again. 

A middle 2 can work if they sit deep and intelligently plug gaps waiting to initiate counters. Massengo is not this type of player, he runs around, presses and leaves gaps. 

[eardun]

I agree ditch the wingers. Go 5-3-2.

[Silvio Dante]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My first thought is I don’t think the focus should be the middle two, but if you’re gonna critique them, you must include the ones on the outside of them and in today’s case the one in front.

It was brave / stupid (you decide) whether to go with 2 wingers today....and play them as wingers.  We all know it leaves a central 2 being outnumbered.

We go back to Bryan and Brownhill, they knew when to tuck in, when to make it a compact 3 or 4.

Eliasson, especially has no / little football intelligence, it’s a really big problem when he plays.  Pereira did relatively well first half today, but Eliasson exposes him so much.  O’Dowda had a normal game today.  He’s had so many chances, but just flits around, falls over, gives fouls away because he’s never quite in it to impact a tackle / interception.  I really hoped to see him flying forward into space.

Paterson, was ok, but won’t do the hard yards when you need him to sit in.  He’s a master of pointing for someone else to do his running.  He did ok on the ball, and scored a good header.

So that’s 3 other players really making it tough for Smith and Massengo.  The players we have in CM are all good enough individually, but you have to question how to get the best out of them.

Ditch the wingers imho.  A bit of Sir Alf possibly...find midfielders who can play off centre.  Brownhill mk2.  Tinnion mk2, etc.  Or midfielders with intelligence.

I’ve made this point before on more than one occasion, and although by no means was he as bad today as a woeful O’Dowda, it remains the case that we play worse - as a team - when he’s in the side than not. 
 

Our best eleven simply does not contain NE (or COD). I’m sick of people arguing otherwise.

[Lez]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve made this point before on more than one occasion, and although by no means was he as bad today as a woeful O’Dowda, it remains the case that we play worse - as a team - when he’s in the side than not. 
 

Our best eleven simply does not contain NE (or COD). I’m sick of people arguing otherwise.

Add Diedhiou to that list.....one of the worst signings in the past few years.....completely incapalblr of playing in a side without wingers. 

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve made this point before on more than one occasion, and although by no means was he as bad today as a woeful O’Dowda, it remains the case that we play worse - as a team - when he’s in the side than not. 
agree
 

Our best eleven simply does not contain NE (or COD). I’m sick of people arguing otherwise.

agree

 

23 minutes ago, Lez said:

Add Diedhiou to that list.....one of the worst signings in the past few years.....completely incapalblr of playing in a side without wingers. 
disagree on both points....but he has not progressed much in his time here.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Remains to be seen. Like I said, if he wants to accept a reduced 1 year deal we should give it to him but don't think we should be busting a gut to keep him. 

Physically though, it is undeniable they are not physically there for the battle. Massengo has been bullied twice now this season by Blackburn. This would not change much if we played with a three, he would still be physically knocked off the ball and bullied in the air again. 

A middle 2 can work if they sit deep and intelligently plug gaps waiting to initiate counters. Massengo is not this type of player, he runs around, presses and leaves gaps. 

You get more protection in a 3. You just do- 2 vs 3 will often be overrun, swamped- seen it so often.

If you have another battler in there say, that would free up Massengo in there to press higher and perhaps escape opposition attentions a bit more oftne.

Possibly...though I'm yet to be convinced. Didn't we play a central 2 at Leeds? Barely had a shot. Hemmed in most of the game.

[marcofisher]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You get more protection in a 3. You just do- 2 vs 3 will often be overrun, swamped- seen it so often.

If you have another battler in there say, that would free up Massengo in there to press higher and perhaps escape opposition attentions a bit more oftne.

Possibly...though I'm yet to be convinced. Didn't we play a central 2 at Leeds? Barely had a shot. Hemmed in most of the game.

Whilst I agree entirely with what you're saying. I don't think they are good enough even if they were in a three. A lack of physicality and composure is evident.

[Red Exile]

All good points @marcofisher but we have a manager who like 'busy bees'...and can't decide his best side from one match to the next. However, fiddling with the 'clubs in the bag' is irrelevant if you don't know how to select them. The problem is more fundamental than the playing personnel.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, marcofisher said:

Whilst I agree entirely with what you're saying. I don't think they are good enough even if they were in a three. A lack of physicality and composure is evident.

Only one way to find out- I think Nagy has composure, when fit. Massengo started at a high calibre academy in Monaco- I know a couple of CL games aren't conclusive either way but I really think a 3 would alleviate a bit of pressure on him and Nagy in particular. Giving us as a team a bit more control and security. Whether it's the out and out answer I don't know, but it surely should improve things.

[marcofisher]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Only one way to find out- I think Nagy has composure, when fit. Massengo started at a high calibre academy in Monaco- I know a couple of CL games aren't conclusive either way but I really think a 3 would alleviate a bit of pressure on him and Nagy in particular. Giving us as a team a bit more control and security. Whether it's the out and out answer I don't know, but it surely should improve things.

It has to be two of them with Palmer or another AM, otherwise we have no creativity from midfield. In the current formation it seems to be a case of give Eliasson the ball and pray. I think reverting back to the 5212 would be far better and provide us with better physicality.  

Frustrating that the Henriksen move hasn't worked, really thought he would replace Brownhill.

[Davefevs]

Two weeks ago before I’d seen any pre-season footage, the side I’d have picked was:

Maenpaa

Pereira / Kalas / Baker / Dasilva

Nagy / Smith / Massengo

Paterson

Afobe / Wells

On today’s performance I feel pretty vindicated in some of my choices....especially Maenpaa (and that was before Saints friendly).

Someone said it would get exposed wide.  I didn’t go into chapter and verse then, but my big sorry with City is being exposed centrally, hence (on paper) a narrow formation....but also because our wide players are largely ineffective to the team system....so I’d rather fill the centre.  Eliasson gives you assists, but that is all.  I’d sacrifice that pretty much every day of the week!!

Its actually not a million miles away from a 5212 when Smith stops in, and allows the full backs to morph into wing-backs.  We played some good football with that.  Another player who didn’t start it the 5212 early season was Diedhiou.

oh, and boy did we look like we missed Weimann....even if for some, all he does in run around.

 

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Two weeks ago before I’d seen any pre-season footage, the side I’d have picked was:

Maenpaa

Pereira / Kalas / Baker / Dasilva

Nagy / Smith / Massengo

Paterson

Afobe / Wells

On today’s performance I feel pretty vindicated in some of my choices....especially Maenpaa (and that was before Saints friendly).

Someone said it would get exposed wide.  I didn’t go into chapter and verse then, but my big sorry with City is being exposed centrally, hence (on paper) a narrow formation....but also because our wide players are largely ineffective to the team system....so I’d rather fill the centre.  Eliasson gives you assists, but that is all.  I’d sacrifice that pretty much every day of the week!!

Its actually not a million miles away from a 5212 when Smith stops in, and allows the full backs to morph into wing-backs.  We played some good football with that.  Another player who didn’t start it the 5212 early season was Diedhiou.

oh, and boy did we look like we missed Weimann....even if for some, all he does in run around.

 

Other than swapping Weimann for Paterson, I agree that would be our strongest team and best formation. In reality it’s a version of 4-3-3, with full backs expected to push forward, and lots of mobility up front.

However we all know that LJ isn’t going to play that team and formation any time soon, even if Jurgen and Pep both phoned him and suggested it to him!

[Davefevs]

Yep, exactly right.  I’m too 1980s to quite accept 433, but my philosophy is condense the middle of the pitch, e.g. keep the bulk of your players within the lines of the 18 yard box.

Heres 4 formations LJ has played:

442 - only 6 players in my yellow zone

5212 - 8 players

4312 - 8 players

4411 - 6 players

Its only illustrative, as the game is fluid, but if your core is solid, we are less exposed.

Early season, we conceded possession in the 5212, but we rarely conceded easy chances....we just forced possession wide.  We blocked lots of shots too around the edge of the box because numbers 4 & 5 filled the gaps of 1, 2 & 3.

Often we ate up against a 4231, which means our opposition often play 6-8 centrally.  In a 442 we never outnumber a team centrally.

Does the above make sense.

Of course Pep and Jurgen have bloody top class players to play a 433, especially in those wide areas, so it becomes feasible.

Compare 17/18s 442 to today’s?  Brownhill and Bryan versus Eliasson and O’Dowda.  No contest.  Albeit the 442 of 17/18 was aided by Reid and Pato condensing my yellow zone.

At the end of the day we don’t have the players currently to play 442 (4411) with 2 wingers

 

[Taylor10]

3 hours ago, marcofisher said:

Possibly a topic that everyone has differing opinions about is our midfield.

IMO those central midfield spots, not including attacking midfielders such as Palmer and Pato, are the ones that really need freshening up next season. While Lee's tactics may be equally to blame, it has become clear since Brownhill left that this is a serious weakness in the squad.

This is how I feel about it, on the assumption that we will still be in the Championship:

Smith - Perhaps he has has too many injuries in the last two seasons, but he has not looked up to it since coming back. 1 Year deal on reduced terms to see if he can recapture his previous level or see you later and reinvest. I do feel like our fans are blinded by an understandable admiration to Korey to his limitations.

Nagy - Jury's out. Next year will really be the acid test. Should be given the chance to see if he can stay fit and be an asset to the squad.

Massengo - Not up to it YET, while he has the biggest ceiling in our squad, he gets bullied easily in midfield and is not up to the pace of the league. Had exceptional games against Fulham and Huddersfield early in the season, but every team has had his number since. Needs a loan to league 1 like Walsh and Morrell. It is irrelevant where he came from or his price tag, the boy is still only 18 and still has plenty of time to reach this level. It would be of further detriment to keep him in the squad when he is not ready on the basis of his reputation rather than current ability.

Walsh - Exceptional season for a league 1 winning Cov. Has passed all the stages that  you would expect of him on his development pathway. Personally, I think it would be criminal should he not be part of the squad next season to fill the void left by Brownhill. He has shown he is ready for a chance and it would make a mockery of the development pathway if underperforming players such as Massengo are kept in ahead of him.

Morrell - Seemed to impress out on loan and has become a Wales international since. No reason why he couldn't come in as a squad player and as a potential replacement for Smith. 

Henriksen - Think it is clear that he won't be here. 

Getting Smith and Massengo (on loan) off the wage bill should leave us room to manoeuvre on the market to bring in another talented midfielder.

Currently, I don't consider a single one of our midfielders to be of top half Championship standard.

What are your thoughts?

A midfield rebuild under the guidance of LJ? Absolutely not. We do need to rebuild the midfield though.

 

Smith - We need to move him on, no doubt about it. He has been brilliant for us but there is no room for sentiment if we want to kick on. He wont ever get back to his best so I think its time we say thanks and move on.

 

Nagy - He looked half decent on his debut but has really struggled ever since. Not seen anything to suggest he will be a success here unfortunately. Hope I am wrong.

 

Massengo - Offers nothing other than high energy. Surely a given for any professional footballer playing centre mid. I am not sure if we will see him fulfil his apparent potential. Maybe he might flourish in a stronger midfield? who knows? However he is not up to it right now and I can't see him improving drastically in a midfield that is consistently over run, out battled and exposed.

 

Walsh - I completely agree with your points on him. There is also nothing to suggest he is any worse than what we already have, so given the lack of depth and quality we have, perhaps we shouldn't have let him go? I guess for his development he needed some serious game time, but with what we currently have I think he would have got plenty. Having said that, at the time a loan for him seemed the best option. He should definitely be a part next season.

Morrell - Well worth having as a squad player and I will be intrigued to see how he progresses next season if given the chance with us. However if he isn't given a chance to be a squad player at the start of next season with such obvious work required on the midfield, I fear his time with us might come to an end.

[Nibor]

We don't need a rebuild in midfield, we just need LJ to stop trying to coach midfielders because he hasn't got a ******* clue what they're supposed to do or how.

[GrahamC]

10 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

A midfield rebuild under the guidance of LJ? Absolutely not. We do need to rebuild the midfield though.

 

Smith - We need to move him on, no doubt about it. He has been brilliant for us but there is no room for sentiment if we want to kick on. He wont ever get back to his best so I think its time we say thanks and move on.

 

Nagy - He looked half decent on his debut but has really struggled ever since. Not seen anything to suggest he will be a success here unfortunately. Hope I am wrong.

 

Massengo - Offers nothing other than high energy. Surely a given for any professional footballer playing centre mid. I am not sure if we will see him fulfil his apparent potential. Maybe he might flourish in a stronger midfield? who knows? However he is not up to it right now and I can't see him improving drastically in a midfield that is consistently over run, out battled and exposed.

 

Walsh - I completely agree with your points on him. There is also nothing to suggest he is any worse than what we already have, so given the lack of depth and quality we have perhaps we shouldn't have let him go? I guess for his development he needed some serious game time, but with what we currently have I think he would have got plenty. Having said, at the time a loan for him seemed the best option. He should definitely be a part next season.

Morrell - Well worth having as a squad player and I will be intrigued to see how he progresses next season if given the chance with us. However if he isn't given a chance to be a squad player at the start of next season with such obvious work required on the midfield, I fear his time with us might come to an end.

Agree with much of this (especially re Nagy who often doesn’t look like he wants to be here to me) but worth pointing out Massengo won’t even be 19 until next month & due to the failings & injury records of others he has appeared in more games than anyone in midfield but Brownhill.

Think there is a decent player there but we have simply asked far too much of him.

[shelts]

Our midfield doesn’t offer any bite or creativity. I thought Nagy was ok but then became like the rest of our midfield. Noah could be a good player but he’s gotta learn fast and on his feet hoping he gets the games in . The rest are average at best 

[Taylor10]

35 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Agree with much of this (especially re Nagy who often doesn’t look like he wants to be here to me) but worth pointing out Massengo won’t even be 19 until next month & due to the failings & injury records of others he has appeared in more games than anyone in midfield but Brownhill.

Think there is a decent player there but we have simply asked far too much of him.

I think there is potential there with Massengo @GrahamC. It is too early to write him off but my worry is how is he going to progress with us? I can't see it with the midfield we currently have. Not to mention how we set up or attempt to play. The Champ is unforgiving. You are right though, we have asked way too much, too soon. He is a boy that is expected to lead a midfield and has offered very little. I am not very hopeful of us seeing him fulfil anywhere near any apparent potential.

He has been set up to fail really. I am sure MA & LJ will say he has been used more than they would have liked at this stage so you have to ask why it was allowed to get to this? Poor recruitment as per, however we are told we have a long list of players on our radar for every eventuality when it comes to recruiting. We are constantly adapting and being innovative to identify targets....I guess the list just didn't include any midfield players....