Gregor Rates the bedsheet

[One Team]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Agreed. All opinions.  I don’t necessarily listen because I agree with the views. More the calm tone, humour and lack of shouting/rage.  This weeks is certainly one I have agreed with most though.  Pretty much every point they made and it was a nice change from this forum. Was starting to think that me, my brother and a few my mates were representing a huge minority viewpoint that this might well be a good move for the club.  

Fair play mate. I disagree but good discussion.

[Prinny]

Just 18 or so mins in at the moment and there's a really strange take on Korey Smith which i wanted to comment on before I forget. BCFC doesn't owe Korey Smiths children anything. Korey Smith chose to sign an extension to his contract above sorting out a longer term deal somewhere else, Korey Smith chose to wait on a contract offer instead of signing somewhere else. In other words, Korey Smith placed what he wanted before getting his kids settled into a school etc. He chose that. He didn't have to. So it's REALLY weird to act as if Korey had no agency in this situation. He chose to sign a contract multiple times and chose to wait. He could literally quit football and stay in the area. He could sign for Rovers or another local team. He has the choice here, don't act like he doesn't. It's his life, his kids, his priorities, his choice, so he and family make the decisions here. I'm not criticising any of his choices but he has to take the consequences of that. We all have to take responsibility from our decisions and not blame others for it.

I do agree there should be better communication and coordination but it's a garbage take to ignore the agency Korey Smith had in the situation. After all he could have gone to the club and said, "hey I want to do something on me leaving, and I want to announce it let's work together on it." He didn't do that we assume. Why should it just be the club who does that? I think the club SHOULD do it, but Korey COULD have done it too.

[phantom]

2 hours ago, bristolcitysweden said:

It was a fluke win. We could  have been three nil down.

I'm guessing arguments could be made about many results, the end of the day the records don't lie

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, bristolcitysweden said:

It was a fluke win. We could  have been three nil down.

I don't agree on that- maybe we had luck in periods and perhaps we could've lost but 3-0 down?? Dunno- think we were worthy winners personally. We were great!

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

The cup run season wqs the obvious one,,, we were absolutely flying and had just beaten united. The fall was so dramatic you start to wonder whether it was done on purpose?

I agree on that- that was the one and that momentum could've carried us to victory in the playoffs itself despite our terrible record in playoffs.

See Burnley 2009 as a similar example/reference point. Because playing big cup ties- not just the Manchester ones but the 4 PL ones also- these are good preparation for what are Cup ties basically in the playoffs.

Then think back through our squad that season- we had a wealth of experience of Cup football in recent times, a mix of medium to big games- what better way to prepare for the playoffs and prepare to win!

Thinking notably, off the top of my head, Fielding, Flint, Bryan, Pack, Smith- I am sure there are more btw- they were there for 4, 5 seasons and together would have experienced a lot fo the aforementioned medium to big Cup ties- experienced it together, as a collective- can't buy that stuff, team chemistry!

[And Its Smith]

52 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Just 18 or so mins in at the moment and there's a really strange take on Korey Smith which i wanted to comment on before I forget. BCFC doesn't owe Korey Smiths children anything. Korey Smith chose to sign an extension to his contract above sorting out a longer term deal somewhere else, Korey Smith chose to wait on a contract offer instead of signing somewhere else. In other words, Korey Smith placed what he wanted before getting his kids settled into a school etc. He chose that. He didn't have to. So it's REALLY weird to act as if Korey had no agency in this situation. He chose to sign a contract multiple times and chose to wait. He could literally quit football and stay in the area. He could sign for Rovers or another local team. He has the choice here, don't act like he doesn't. It's his life, his kids, his priorities, his choice, so he and family make the decisions here. I'm not criticising any of his choices but he has to take the consequences of that. We all have to take responsibility from our decisions and not blame others for it.

I do agree there should be better communication and coordination but it's a garbage take to ignore the agency Korey Smith had in the situation. After all he could have gone to the club and said, "hey I want to do something on me leaving, and I want to announce it let's work together on it." He didn't do that we assume. Why should it just be the club who does that? I think the club SHOULD do it, but Korey COULD have done it too.

So Korey goes to the club and says I want to stay can you offer me a new contract?  Club say hang on we need to appoint a manager. Then take 5 weeks to do that leaving Smith, who probably wants to stay, in limbo.  

The point was why can the club not make the decision without a manager the same as they made other decisions.  Not a ‘garbage take’.  Just a way of looking at it.  Don’t think calling opinions garbage is necessary really. 

[petehinton]

24 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

So Korey goes to the club and says I want to stay can you offer me a new contract?  Club say hang on we need to appoint a manager. Then take 5 weeks to do that leaving Smith, who probably wants to stay, in limbo.  

The point was why can the club not make the decision without a manager the same as they made other decisions.  Not a ‘garbage take’.  Just a way of looking at it.  Don’t think calling opinions garbage is necessary really. 

Or MA tells Korey we aren’t offering him a deal 5 weeks ago and said sorry we can’t announce it until we have a head coach so it doesn’t give away that I’m making the decisions

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

So Korey goes to the club and says I want to stay can you offer me a new contract?  Club say hang on we need to appoint a manager. Then take 5 weeks to do that leaving Smith, who probably wants to stay, in limbo.  

The point was why can the club not make the decision without a manager the same as they made other decisions.  Not a ‘garbage take’.  Just a way of looking at it.  Don’t think calling opinions garbage is necessary really. 

In many ways the club announced it in June when they didn’t put him on the retained list.

In many ways Korey announced it himself when he asked not to play the final game of the season.

Not great communication whatever the timing.

[Prinny]

4 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

So Korey goes to the club and says I want to stay can you offer me a new contract?  Club say hang on we need to appoint a manager. Then take 5 weeks to do that leaving Smith, who probably wants to stay, in limbo.  

The point was why can the club not make the decision without a manager the same as they made other decisions.  Not a ‘garbage take’.  Just a way of looking at it.  Don’t think calling opinions garbage is necessary really. 

The relevant part here I think you're missing is that on the podcast it is said that "we owe it to him, he's got kids that are just about to start school" I.E. we owe it to him BECAUSE of his situation. And we do not. If the point is the best thing for Korey and his family is to make a decision as early as possible I agree! But to owe it? Why should we owe it?

He's not prioritising "he's got kids that are just about to start school" as far as we know so why should we owe it when he doesn't? Yes it's true he's caught between being offered a contract or not at BCFC, and he doesn't have a choice on that, but he has many other options if his priority is that his kids are settled in school. That's why we don't owe it for that reason. And that isn't an accurate representation of the situation to say he's in LIMBO overall. Yes he is if the only choices were to sign for City or unsettle his family but those aren't the only choices available. So that opinion is wrong. Calling something wrong is harsher than calling something garbage. 

Don't take away agency from someone, don't strip him of his choices. Don't belittle him and say he's trapped and caught and has no way out. That's not empathy because he's not. The owing him point comes from that I believe, but it's wrong because it's failed to understand what he's feeling and thinking because his actions (so far) absolutely don't line up with that.

Why can the club not make a decision on this without a manager? Because it's not a clear cut decision. It might absolutely depend on who the manager they picked was as to whether they wanted Korey or not. That's obvious.

 

[Portland Bill]

9 hours ago, Shtanley said:

I don't think he'll get a job as soon as the others do, probably a lower championship team at some point.

That line from your post is a load of bollocks though.

At the time,SL gave an interview to Twentyman, and when he was asked the question about a lot of City fans wanting LJ out, that’s the way he came across in my opinion.It wasn’t long afterwards that he gave him a new contract. The majority were dumbfounded. 

[Portland Bill]

9 hours ago, petehinton said:

Interesting how people see things different, You really think a manger who led two teams to near-play off finishes in consecutive seasons and a league cup semi final won’t get a job in the same league he left his last job in?

Which two teams were these, and which seasons were these ? 

 

[Portland Bill]

8 hours ago, Riaz said:

 

 Going by that, he won 81 games out of 230, and all in all had a negative goal difference during his tenure. The average league position is mid table. Yes, we got to the league cup semi finals, but I just don’t see any kind of successful manager record. 

If he had got the side playing fluent possession based football ( because that was his plan) and had four mid table finishes I could understand. But as we all know it was turgid and dull football with no real plan. 

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

The relevant part here I think you're missing is that on the podcast it is said that "we owe it to him, he's got kids that are just about to start school" I.E. we owe it to him BECAUSE of his situation. And we do not. If the point is the best thing for Korey and his family is to make a decision as early as possible I agree! But to owe it? Why should we owe it?

He's not prioritising "he's got kids that are just about to start school" as far as we know so why should we owe it when he doesn't? Yes it's true he's caught between being offered a contract or not at BCFC, and he doesn't have a choice on that, but he has many other options if his priority is that his kids are settled in school. That's why we don't owe it for that reason. And that isn't an accurate representation of the situation to say he's in LIMBO overall. Yes he is if the only choices were to sign for City or unsettle his family but those aren't the only choices available. So that opinion is wrong. Calling something wrong is harsher than calling something garbage. 

Don't take away agency from someone, don't strip him of his choices. Don't belittle him and say he's trapped and caught and has no way out. That's not empathy because he's not. The owing him point comes from that I believe, but it's wrong because it's failed to understand what he's feeling and thinking because his actions (so far) absolutely don't line up with that.

Why can the club not make a decision on this without a manager? Because it's not a clear cut decision. It might absolutely depend on who the manager they picked was as to whether they wanted Korey or not. That's obvious.

 

Can’t agree with most of what you’ve written there. Agree to disagree then. No bother. 

[Notbarrymanc]

10 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

 Going by that, he won 81 games out of 230, and all in all had a negative goal difference during his tenure. The average league position is mid table. Yes, we got to the league cup semi finals, but I just don’t see any kind of successful manager record. 

If he had got the side playing fluent possession based football ( because that was his plan) and had four mid table finishes I could understand. But as we all know it was turgid and dull football with no real plan. 

The point that this was reinforcing, was one that Dave made, in that our average finish across the last three seasons is the highest it’s been for 30 years. That’s where the success lies. A long term, indisputable improvement that has not been bettered in my lifetime. 
 

If you judge city’s success on the quality of the football being played, I fear you’ll be disappointed for a while. Unless we slip back into league 1 and become the big fish again. If that’s what you like, well, agree to disagree. 
 

Just to add, Dave smashed it in this pod imo, his Ashton rant was spot on and he nailed lots of other points. It’s great to see him finally coming through his ‘dehydration’ issues

[Lack of Action Man]

17 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

 

Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s detached from reality. 

A calmer, more thought through response is what you will find on OSIB and those type of fans aren’t necessarily the minority but they are drowned out on forums and social media.  

That's your opinion, I have mine which is that their views don't reflect the majority - a very unhappy, and underwhelmed fanbase. I'd say that the opinions they expressed on the podcast did not represent the majority of the fans, ergo fairly detached from reality, but that's just my own point of view.

[And Its Smith]

6 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

That's your opinion, I have mine which is that their views don't reflect the majority - a very unhappy, and underwhelmed fanbase. I'd say that the opinions they expressed on the podcast did not represent the majority of the fans, ergo fairly detached from reality, but that's just my own point of view.

So minority viewpoints are detached from reality?  Can’t agree with that. 

Football fans are very fickle anyway. If we do well this season then Holden will be the saviour and suddenly everyone who didn’t want him will say they did. 

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

That's your opinion, I have mine which is that their views don't reflect the majority - a very unhappy, and underwhelmed fanbase. I'd say that the opinions they expressed on the podcast did not represent the majority of the fans, ergo fairly detached from reality, but that's just my own point of view.

I’d say Dave and Paul’s view were more aligned to mine....and I think I’m in the minority!!  But I think I’m “minority” in the social media group, who are definitely more unhappy with it.

For the non-social media fan, I suspect I’m less of a minority, but I still think on the whole, most fans are unhappy, just not to the extremes of the unhappy social media crowd.

But the main thing is, I’m happy with my view.  Dull place if we all agreed.

[Riaz]

12 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

 Going by that, he won 81 games out of 230, and all in all had a negative goal difference during his tenure. The average league position is mid table. Yes, we got to the league cup semi finals, but I just don’t see any kind of successful manager record. 

If he had got the side playing fluent possession based football ( because that was his plan) and had four mid table finishes I could understand. But as we all know it was turgid and dull football with no real plan. 

"Average league table is mid table" - again does not tell the whole story.

Other clubs will look at his gradual improvement, while losing his best players, VERY positively.

It will look even more impressive when they see the negative net spend...

 

[Notbarrymanc]

45 minutes ago, Riaz said:

"Average league table is mid table" - again does not tell the whole story.

Other clubs will look at his gradual improvement, while losing his best players, VERY positively.

It will look even more impressive when they see the negative net spend...

 

I suspect it’ll look even more favourably when people see our league position without LJ at the helm. 

[Portland Bill]

48 minutes ago, Riaz said:

"Average league table is mid table" - again does not tell the whole story.

Other clubs will look at his gradual improvement, while losing his best players, VERY positively.

It will look even more impressive when they see the negative net spend...

 

It would be intriguing to see what a good experienced manager could have done over the last four years, with the backing he has had from the owner. If SL had backed the previous manager when we first got promotion, I’m confident his record would be another level up than LJ’s.....and far,far more entertaining! 

[IAmNick]

2 hours ago, Notbarrymanc said:

The point that this was reinforcing, was one that Dave made, in that our average finish across the last three seasons is the highest it’s been for 30 years. That’s where the success lies. A long term, indisputable improvement that has not been bettered in my lifetime. 

For the record, our last 3 seasons we finished 11th, 8th, and 12th. That's an average of just under 10th.

Just over ten years ago we finished 4th, 10th, and 10th. That's an average of 8th.

In fact the first 5 years in the Champ last time our average position was 11.8. This 5 years it's been 13.2.

I don't think it really means that much to compare in this way, but your comment is incorrect.

In reality I think twice in a row now we've had one good season (the playoff final under Gary, and the cup run season under Lee) and then stagnated - I just hope this little foray into the Championship doesn't end the way the last one did!

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, Notbarrymanc said:

The point that this was reinforcing, was one that Dave made, in that our average finish across the last three seasons is the highest it’s been for 30 years. That’s where the success lies. A long term, indisputable improvement that has not been bettered in my lifetime. 
 

If you judge city’s success on the quality of the football being played, I fear you’ll be disappointed for a while. Unless we slip back into league 1 and become the big fish again. If that’s what you like, well, agree to disagree. 
 

Just to add, Dave smashed it in this pod imo, his Ashton rant was spot on and he nailed lots of other points. It’s great to see him finally coming through his ‘dehydration’ issues

A lot of us who have been going since the first division days just don’t see this ‘success’. 

I really don’t class mid table in the second division as that, whilst also playing dire, boring football. If that is the aim of the club then count me out. My best memories of City is of us playing attractive football, especially at home, taking the game to the opposition and being pro active. LJ’s four years will be remembered for one cup run and a lot of negative rubbish.

If you, or anyone thinks we could of (under LJ) carried on playing that brand of football and actually got promoted with it, then they are deluded. He was backed to the hilt, but did not have any plan gong forward. The first two seasons were totally reliant on SC’s signings, even after he had bought in a lot of his own, SC’s signings were the ‘go to’ players when LJ had run out of patience with his own. 

Lack of leaders, players he couldn’t trust, we heard this every bloody week, and these were the players he himself payed big money for. 

Yes, he made some money on a few, but as a fan I’m not interested in making money. I want to see a manager with a squad of 20 players, being forced to use these players and make them better, surely that’s what a ‘head coach’ should be doing. We need to get out of this circle of signings, it’s got ridiculous over the last four years. 

 

 

[Notbarrymanc]

10 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

For the record, our last 3 seasons we finished 11th, 8th, and 12th. That's an average of just under 10th.

Just over ten years ago we finished 4th, 10th, and 10th. That's an average of 8th.

In fact the first 5 years in the Champ last time our average position was 11.8. This 5 years it's been 13.2.

I don't think it really means that much to compare in this way, but your comment is incorrect.

In reality I think twice in a row now we've had one good season (the playoff final under Gary, and the cup run season under Lee) and then stagnated - I just hope this little foray into the Championship doesn't end the way the last one did!

Fair enough, the point still remains though. We have experienced our second best period, with many similarities to GJs tenure. That for me is cause for celebration, whereas lots of other fans instead think it’s not good enough. 
 

While we’re here, I think sacking GJ was a mistake, and I think sacking LJ in this nature was a mistake. I hope it doesn’t happen but this situation has a sneaky deja vu feeling creeping in, and we all know history has a habit of repeating itself. As massive attack once said, inertia creeps

[Portland Bill]

Just now, Notbarrymanc said:

Fair enough, the point still remains though. We have experienced our second best period, with many similarities to GJs tenure. That for me is cause for celebration, whereas lots of other fans instead think it’s not good enough. 
 

While we’re here, I think sacking GJ was a mistake, and I think sacking LJ in this nature was a mistake. I hope it doesn’t happen but this situation has a sneaky deja vu feeling creeping in, and we all know history has a habit of repeating itself. As massive attack once said, inertia creeps

GJ’s time here was good, but he did what he did at several clubs, he left no foundations for the future. The club was left in a mess after he went, that’s why the next 2-3 managers struggled. 

His reign was very similar to his sons, a couple of decent seasons, and then totally ran out of ideas. 

[Notbarrymanc]

1 minute ago, Portland Bill said:

A lot of us who have been going since the first division days just don’t see this ‘success’. 

I really don’t class mid table in the second division as that, whilst also playing dire, boring football. If that is the aim of the club then count me out. My best memories of City is of us playing attractive football, especially at home, taking the game to the opposition and being pro active. LJ’s four years will be remembered for one cup run and a lot of negative rubbish.

If you, or anyone thinks we could of (under LJ) carried on playing that brand of football and actually got promoted with it, then they are deluded. He was backed to the hilt, but did not have any plan gong forward. The first two seasons were totally reliant on SC’s signings, even after he had bought in a lot of his own, SC’s signings were the ‘go to’ players when LJ had run out of patience with his own. 

Lack of leaders, players he couldn’t trust, we heard this every bloody week, and these were the players he himself payed big money for. 

Yes, he made some money on a few, but as a fan I’m not interested in making money. I want to see a manager with a squad of 20 players, being forced to use these players and make them better, surely that’s what a ‘head coach’ should be doing. We need to get out of this circle of signings, it’s got ridiculous over the last four years. 

 

 

The signings issue is Ashton, no? We will soon see, but the culpability there seems to like a way away from LJ. 

 

Ignoring all that for now, quoting one comment you made:

 

My best memories of City is of us playing attractive football,

 

when was this? As long as I’ve been a city fan we’ve been shite. And like it or lump it, you didn’t choose to support city, and you certainly didn’t sign up for the glitz and glamour, we’re stuck with it and the perennial disappointment that comes with it

[IAmNick]

3 minutes ago, Notbarrymanc said:

Fair enough, the point still remains though. We have experienced our second best period, with many similarities to GJs tenure. That for me is cause for celebration, whereas lots of other fans instead think it’s not good enough. 
 

While we’re here, I think sacking GJ was a mistake, and I think sacking LJ in this nature was a mistake. I hope it doesn’t happen but this situation has a sneaky deja vu feeling creeping in, and we all know history has a habit of repeating itself. As massive attack once said, inertia creeps

Probably getting off topic now, but I agree about the (cautious) cause for celebration so far.

Personally I think football, or rather success in football is a lot more about momentum and motivation than a lot of people give credit for. Gary's team wasn't great and he wasn't a great manager but those are two things we had in abundance, which is also why I was so disappointed when we got promoted under Cotts as I felt we wasted perhaps our most valuable (and intangible) asset.

I think it also is evidenced by the number of teams that come up and do way better than expected, or alternatively appoint a manager, he has a season of stability and then gets promoted. After a period things get a bit stale - it's hard to keep that energy / desire / momentum sustained over a period of many years! It's also very difficult to artificially create, and in many ways it can't be bought or sold so I hope Dean gets us off to a flying start.

[Notbarrymanc]

3 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

GJ’s time here was good, but he did what he did at several clubs, he left no foundations for the future. The club was left in a mess after he went, that’s why the next 2-3 managers struggled. 

His reign was very similar to his sons, a couple of decent seasons, and then totally ran out of ideas. 

Completely agree. What the club need to do during success is plan for succession. Prime the right character to take over when the inevitable ceiling is hit. You could argue that they did that in hiring Holden. A 5 week recruitment process would indicate otherwise tho

[headhunter]

22 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

 

Lack of leaders, players he couldn’t trust, we heard this every bloody week, and these were the players he himself payed big money for. 

 

 

 

100% agree with that aspect of your post

[Riaz]

42 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

It would be intriguing to see what a good experienced manager could have done over the last four years, with the backing he has had from the owner. If SL had backed the previous manager when we first got promotion, I’m confident his record would be another level up than LJ’s.....and far,far more entertaining! 

oh ffs

Cotterill was taking us down quickly, with the same squad that LJ climbed us the league with!!

[Portland Bill]

29 minutes ago, Notbarrymanc said:

The signings issue is Ashton, no? We will soon see, but the culpability there seems to like a way away from LJ. 

 

Ignoring all that for now, quoting one comment you made:

 

My best memories of City is of us playing attractive football,

 

when was this? As long as I’ve been a city fan we’ve been shite. And like it or lump it, you didn’t choose to support city, and you certainly didn’t sign up for the glitz and glamour, we’re stuck with it and the perennial disappointment that comes with it

Andy Cole, Jackie, David Smith, Scott Murray, Mark Gavin, Bob Taylor, Clive Whitehead, and Ivan Sproule are just a few of the attacking players/wingers we have had over the last 30-40 years. 

They made people get excited and got the crowd going. Today’s players are mostly sterile, don’t get me wrong, they are good players, but no one that excites us anymore. Nothing beats a flying winger taking his full back on. I admit the game has changed, and these sorts of players are now very rare, but we did have them.