Pato v KP

[redpole]

With it looking more likely that we are going to loose one of our Attack Minded players. I believe it will be out of Pato who is coming Into the final year of his contract or Palmer.

I know that Szmodics has been talked about as being moved on, however I think he can play in CF role as has played lone striker in his Colchester days so he offers extra options to our forwards. Same with Weimann being able to play up top.
 

Callum, can also fill in at LWB and as we are playing 3-5-2 I think he will be kept on as options in that area.
 

So with those players being able to fill in other areas in the team, I can see one of Pato or Palmer being moved on. 
 

who would people want to be moved on??

[Lrrr]

I'd keep Pato personally

[A Horse With No Name]

To be honest, C O'D struggles in his own position let alone in someone elses. I would like to see Palmer started from the beginning of the season, and promised a run of say 4 games, then, and only then will DH know his true worth, or lack of it.

[Prinny]

10 minutes ago, redpole said:

Callum, can also fill in at LWB and as we are playing 3-5-2 I think he will be kept on as options in that area.

who would people want to be moved on??

What does Callum O'Dowda do that Tommy Rowe doesn't?

 

[Street red]

Maybe it just me but I wouldn't keep pato I just don't think he can offer performances consistently through the season.. Yes he's got quality about him but the issue over the last few year's has been fitness and consistent performances and a few fall short of that.. Pato and Palmer have a lot of prove in that respect.

With Palmer he needs games a consistent run of games but I think Sammie could perform consistently better than pato and Palmer he just seems that type of player given the chance.. It's about freshness this season fitness and consistency.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Prinny said:

What does Callum O'Dowda do that Tommy Rowe doesn't?

 

Exactly.  Callum is 3rd / 4th choice LWB, depending on how you see Pring.

In a 352 I don’t think I’ve seen one poster have him in their starting eleven.  That’s quite damming imho.  With the plethora of midfield men at Holden’s disposal, he is one I woukd be looking to move on, I genuinely see no role for him here.  But he won’t be easy to move on at the right fee and someone pick up his wages too.

[BrizzleRed]

4 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

To be honest, C O'D struggles in his own position let alone in someone elses. I would like to see Palmer started from the beginning of the season, and promised a run of say 4 games, then, and only then will DH know his true worth, or lack of it.

Would certainly be worth giving it a go to check if can strike up a similar pertnership as he did with Benik, as they are both far more mobile than Fammy.  

KP could be good for picking out Nakhi’s runs, though Walsh may possibly offer the same passing ability, plus more of an all-round game too.  

KP really does need to prove his worth this season though.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Street red said:

Maybe it just me but I wouldn't keep pato I just don't think he can offer performances consistently through the season.. Yes he's got quality about him but the issue over the last few year's has been fitness and consistent performances and a few fall short of that.. Pato and Palmer have a lot of prove in that respect.

With Palmer he needs games a consistent run of games but I think Sammie could perform consistently better than pato and Palmer he just seems that type of player given the chance.. It's about freshness this season fitness and consistency.

Post-window, Pato was about as consistent as you can expect from a creative player (creative players seem to always play in fits and starts).  He has end product.  Over his City career he’s scored a goal and assisted a goal every 5 games.  Over 40 games if you got 8g / 8a we’d be pretty happy with that.

His return last lesson at City was better than that.

 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Street red said:

Maybe it just me but I wouldn't keep pato I just don't think he can offer performances consistently through the season.. Yes he's got quality about him but the issue over the last few year's has been fitness and consistent performances and a few fall short of that.. Pato and Palmer have a lot of prove in that respect.

With Palmer he needs games a consistent run of games but I think Sammie could perform consistently better than pato and Palmer he just seems that type of player given the chance.. It's about freshness this season fitness and consistency.

Exactly this. Under LJ we hardly saw Palmer so to me it’s difficult to compare him with Pato who along with Wiemann started pretty much every game.

Deano certainly has a plethora of choice in the engine room and apart from the new guy it’ll be difficult to predict who’ll he’ll select 

[WirralRobin]

1 minute ago, BrizzleRed said:

Would certainly be worth giving it a go to check if can strike up a similar pertnership as he did with Benik, as they are both far more mobile than Fammy.  

KP could be good for picking out Nakhi’s runs, though Walsh may possibly offer the same passing ability, plus more of an all-round game too.  

KP really does need to prove his worth this season though.

Agree, important to remember Nakhi and Kasey linked up well together in the 2016/2017 promotion winning Huddersfield side. Nakhi even mentioned looking forward to playing with Kasey again in his interview on joining us, yet how many mins have they played together since? Next to none in we discount 5/10 mins here and there chasing games against low block defences which doesn't suit either's games. Would be a real shame imo if Palmer leaves this summer. I think he has much to offer us this season.

[redpole]

15 minutes ago, Prinny said:

What does Callum O'Dowda do that Tommy Rowe doesn't?

 

Energy, Drives Forward, creates chances, international experience, younger.  Plus Rowe is not an attack minded player as stated in topic.
 

im not saying Callum should be starting, I was talking about options with the attack minded players as we will have to move one on. 
 

 

[maxjak]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Post-window, Pato was about as consistent as you can expect from a creative player (creative players seem to always play in fits and starts).  He has end product.  Over his City career he’s scored a goal and assisted a goal every 5 games.  Over 40 games if you got 8g / 8a we’d be pretty happy with that.

His return last lesson at City was better than that.

 

Looking at your graph Dave, it appears that under Holdens 5 games in charge, Patterson had his best run of pitch minutes in the entire season?  He starts each one, and only misses 12 minutes.  I would say that DH is a fan of Patterson, and as long as he has performed well in pre season training, he is almost certainly well ahead of KP?

[Eddie Notgetinya]

I’d be keen to see Palmer get his chance.

Can I throw another one out there? Who would we rather see starting at RCB.

Taylor Moore or Zak Vyner?

Moore for me.  

[Simon bristol]

8 minutes ago, redpole said:

Energy, Drives Forward, creates chances, international experience, younger.  Plus Rowe is not an attack minded player as stated in topic.
 

im not saying Callum should be starting, I was talking about options with the attack minded players as we will have to move one on. 
 

 

I actually think if theres one player who could benefit from having the reins taken off him and going out to actually play offensive football then its odowda. If hes told to go forward aggressively and not run 20 yards and pass backwards it could be the making of him.

regarding paterson and palmer, you cant really argue with the way that pato finished the season. Palmer has a higher standing in the game, but hasnt really done a lot to warrant it i dont think

[WirralRobin]

1 minute ago, maxjak said:

Looking at your graph Dave, it appears that under Hodens 5 games in charge, Patterson had his best run of pitch minutes in the entire season?  He starts each one, and only misses 12 minutes.  I would say that DH is a fan of Patterson, and as long as he has performed well in pre season training, he is almost certainly well ahead of KP?

Yeah good point but I think the fact Kasey was injured just as LJ was sacked and missed Holden's first 3 of the 5 games he was in charge for may complicate that view slightly?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, redpole said:

Energy,

Runs around, but never so it has to engage an opponent...huffing and puffing but never blowing anyone’s house down.

Drives Forward,

and then checks back, losing momentum 

creates chances,

1 assist all season (versus an xA - of 1.92), 1 goal, in 17 starts and 9 sub appearances.

international experience,

yes - but that’s not “doing” as per what does Callum “do”

younger.

yes - ditto

 Plus Rowe is not an attack minded player as stated in topic.

typically he has been throughout his career.  Left midfield / wing for a fair chunk of it.  It’s only because we’ve seen him at LB/LWB that you aren’t seeing him as attacking. 2 goals / 3 assists from 26+9 from a deeper position(s)
 

im not saying Callum should be starting, I was talking about options with the attack minded players as we will have to move one on. 
 

 

Facetious, albeit quite serious comments above

[redpole]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly.  Callum is 3rd / 4th choice LWB, depending on how you see Pring.

In a 352 I don’t think I’ve seen one poster have him in their starting eleven.  That’s quite damming imho.  With the plethora of midfield men at Holden’s disposal, he is one I woukd be looking to move on, I genuinely see no role for him here.  But he won’t be easy to move on at the right fee and someone pick up his wages too.

It’s all about opinions and I like Callum, I admit he’s not been great of late but he showed glimpses of what he can offer in the past and there is a player in there. He wouldn’t of had sides like Leeds etc chasing him or got international caps if there wasn’t something about him.  
 

I would have him above Pring as what has he done at championship level or even league 1 level?? I’m not saying he’s a bad player or not going to be a great player, I just feel he might need a season in league 1. Plus with Tommy Rowe coming into his final year, I would move him on as I can’t see him getting into our midfield or LWB. 
 

I suppose that’s why DH is paid what he is paid to make these decisions, we can all have our opinions and debate things. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Eddie Notgetinya said:

I’d be keen to see Palmer get his chance.

Can I throw another one out there? Who would we rather see starting at RCB.

Taylor Moore or Zak Vyner?

Moore for me.  

Moore is not less () is this one.  Moore for me every day.

[Prinny]

2 minutes ago, redpole said:

Energy, Drives Forward, creates chances,

Look at the goals and assists tables from last season.

international experience, He does international experience better than Tommy Rowe? What does that mean :laugh:

younger. He certainly does younger better than Tommy Rowe, play some new borns... what?

Plus Rowe is not an attack minded player as stated in topic. What does attack minded mean? You inside the brains of the players? How have you decided which is which?

im not saying Callum should be starting, I was talking about options with the attack minded players as we will have to move one on. 

Yes I want to move on Callum as we already a perfectly fine back up left wing back/left back/left wing/central midfielder player who scores more goals and gets more assists.

But I guess he's not "attack minded" enough on your "attack minded - o - meter" so it's irrelevant that he plays in the same positions...

Oh perhaps you're claiming that Callum plays well behind the strikers? Caus you'd have to state when that's EVER happened.

Or are you buying into the POTENTIAL that Callum has? If you are I'm telling you that George Best will be some player when he stops drinking and focuses on football!

Oof!

[redpole]

8 minutes ago, Eddie Notgetinya said:

I’d be keen to see Palmer get his chance.

Can I throw another one out there? Who would we rather see starting at RCB.

Taylor Moore or Zak Vyner?

Moore for me.  

Moore for me all day long, he just looks more comfortable on the ball and bringing it out. 

[Sleepy1968]

44 minutes ago, Prinny said:

What does Callum O'Dowda do that Tommy Rowe doesn't?

 

Cost at least twice as much to employ?

[Bris Red]

Pato will never be consistent enough at this level. Palmer needs to be given a chance but i also doubt if he has the consistency in him over a full championship season.

[Prinny]

3 minutes ago, redpole said:

I suppose that’s why DH is paid what he is paid to make these decisions, we can all have our opinions and debate things. 

But we can have logical consistency and look at actual evidence when doing so.

It's very hard to maintain credibility when you ask what Pring has done, yet try to make a case for Szmodics or O'Dowda?

You say you can see Pato moving on because the others fill in multiple positions when Pato fills in multiple positions and actually performs at this level. It doesn't make sense.

I can Pato moving on because he has a year left and we go with younger players who might be cheaper, or that we want to justify new signings (like what happened last season when we loaned him out), but from a what have they done recently perspective, there's no case to be made there (obviously haven't see preseason/training but competitive fixtures).

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, redpole said:

It’s all about opinions and I like Callum, I admit he’s not been great of late but he showed glimpses of what he can offer in the past and there is a player in there. He wouldn’t of had sides like Leeds etc chasing him or got international caps if there wasn’t something about him.  
 

I would have him above Pring as what has he done at championship level or even league 1 level?? I’m not saying he’s a bad player or not going to be a great player, I just feel he might need a season in league 1. Plus with Tommy Rowe coming into his final year, I would move him on as I can’t see him getting into our midfield or LWB. 
 

I suppose that’s why DH is paid what he is paid to make these decisions, we can all have our opinions and debate things. 

It is indeed.

I’m pretty critical of Callum, because I think at 25 he’s stagnated (gone backwards imho) here.  I really have to wrack my brain to think of a good performance by him.  The best I can come up with Cardiff (a) 1-0 win, when Brownhill scored.  He played LCM in a 3 and had a good game...a 7/10...not a stellar / motm performance but one where I thought it showed promise.

Thats pretty poor indictment of last season, especially when you consider how he managed to start all 4 post-covid games under LJ.

His best spell for us was a 6-8 game spell in 17/18, almost 3 years ago, when he got injured at Hull City.

i don’t disagree re Pring, although he is a natural WB.

Re Rowe, he won’t start over Dasilva but I would guess he will be the rotation option unless a lot faith is shown in Pring (who I think will go out on loan).

Otib would be boring without opinion.

[BLRed]

Stick with Palmer, sell pato and o’dowda and would like to see what szmodics can offer but it’s likely we will at least loan him out but possibly sell

[Sleepy1968]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly.  Callum is 3rd / 4th choice LWB, depending on how you see Pring.

In a 352 I don’t think I’ve seen one poster have him in their starting eleven.  That’s quite damming imho.  With the plethora of midfield men at Holden’s disposal, he is one I woukd be looking to move on, I genuinely see no role for him here.  But he won’t be easy to move on at the right fee and someone pick up his wages too.

Long before a new deal was agreed it was clear he had nothing to offer even a bang average championship side. Giving him a new deal was probably more unfathomable than signing Gus Engvall. He's not moving on unless another Championship team becomes very desperate. I don't think we could give him away.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

From the few times I've seen O'Dowda at wing back I prefer him to Rowe, I know not many will agree with me but that's how I see it!

O'Dowda got far more mobility which is so important for a wing back. Had a very hard game away at Wolves in their promotion season where I think in the first half it was he got moved to right wing back. But he did well up against Jota I think? Bloody tough for someone who I am not sure had even played there before that game.

At home to wolves in Fa cup again did well. And even played at left back against Boro I think and looked far more assured than Rowe who had been targeted before that. As soon as O'Dowda went to left back they kept targeting the other side of the pitch. O'Dowda funnily enough set up Rowe by getting past his man and crossing for Rowe who had been moved into central midfield.

I would like to see more of O'Dowda at wing back before knowing for sure. Even WBA away he wasn't exactly bad considering how awful we were as a team. The main problems for us seemed mainly to be on the other side of the pitch. He got injured first half but to be fair it seems to suit him having that space to charge into from a deeper position to what he would be when he's on the wing.

 

Ultimately Jon, he has no “heart”....he will always be on the periphery of games.  He needs a bit Effin’ rocket up his arse!!

You pick odds and sods from games to qualify Callum at LWB, but to give it balance, do the same with Rowe....you’ll see lots more than odds and sods.

I had hopes when he finally signed a contract...but he just lets me down time and time again.

 

[Super]

22 minutes ago, Eddie Notgetinya said:

I’d be keen to see Palmer get his chance.

Can I throw another one out there? Who would we rather see starting at RCB.

Taylor Moore or Zak Vyner?

Moore for me.  

Seen nothing yet to convince me that Vyner is up to it at this level.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Super said:

Seen nothing yet to convince me that Vyner is up to it at this level.

I think Zak is in the situation Taylor was last season.  In Taylor’s case he proved he was.  Zak has a few encouraging performance post-covid.  Needs to do a “Taylor Moore” this season.

[Simon bristol]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think Zak is in the situation Taylor was last season.  In Taylor’s case he proved he was.  Zak has a few encouraging performance post-covid.  Needs to do a “Taylor Moore” this season.

Go on loan to blackpool!

vyner was a real positive at rwb at the end of the season, and as well as rcb cover, should be competing against hunt for rwb