Our Finances...a bit of a dive into where we are at, what we have done so far and what may- or may not- be possible this season!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'll add to this over time, hope others will too but for all the clamour for more money spent on transfers, more money spent on management- and there are of course legitimate criticisms to be had, I'll look across the last 3 seasons- well I say the last 3 seasons, that should read the last 3 seasons for which we have accounts as nothing for 2019/20 yet.

I am using Bristol City Holdings as they appear to be the consolidated accounts, so will include commercial income from Ashton Gate Limited but I assume a bit of that goes to the Rugby and a bit to Bristol City Women. Still it seems the best guide thusfar, to me.

Quote

Group accounts made up to 31st May 2017:

Turnover- £21,248,355

Employee Benefits Expense- that'd all be wage bill counted under FFP- £20,920,382- that includes tax, NI, pension etc.

Looks like the Amortisation + Impairment of Player Registrations=£5,131,108.

Already just with Amortisation and Wages we are in excess of Turnover! Nuts.

States that our Loss- and Tax doesn't come into it with FFP- was basically £6,571,383.

However this was Inclusive of a Profit- for that largely but not wholly read Kodjia- on Transfer dealings of £13,603,739

I believe allowable costs for us are about £3m per season.

Even so excluding the Profit on Transfers our loss appears to have been £20,175,122- knock £3m off that and we'd lose £17,175,122 in that season alone for FFP!

Loss excluding Player Trading=£13,384,214. I believe that is the sum total of it if nobody signed, nobody sold.

 

Quote

Group accounts made up to 31st May 2018:

Turnover- £25,975,432- but if we also discount Discontinued Operations, it comes to £25,062,080- still either way it's a strong rise of 20-25%- inclusive as it was of the Cup run and probably more TV games, more money from that, higher gates as doing better on the pitch etc.

The only issue is that other expenses rose quicker...

Employee Benefits Expense- that'd all be wage bill counted under FFP- £27,274,691- that includes tax, NI, pension etc.

Looks like the Amortisation + Impairment of Player Registrations=£7,757,156. That's the sum total of existing Amortisation plus Fresh Amortisation- ie new signings Amortised.

Already just with Amortisation and Wages we are in excess of Turnover- but by more! Nuts.

States that our Loss- and Tax doesn't come into it with FFP- was basically £25,346,989.

However this was Inclusive of a Profit- although not much tbh- on Disposal of Player Registrations, of £296,625. It's not a huge difference in the scheme of it.

I believe allowable costs for us are about £3m per season.

Even so excluding the Profit on Transfers our loss appears to have been £25,643,614- knock £3m off that and we'd lose £22,643,614 in that season alone for FFP!

Loss excluding Player Trading=£17,408,179.

Quote

Group accounts made up to 31st May 2019:

Turnover- £30,250,719- of 15-20%. No Cup run, but TV games, yes some Cup games beyond Round 3 and again probably more TV money.

The only issue is that other expenses rose quicker...

Employee Benefits Expense- that'd all be wage bill counted under FFP- £30,640,510- that includes tax, NI, pension etc.

Looks like the Amortisation of Player Registrations=£7,753,115. That's the sum total of existing Amortisation plus Fresh Amortisation- ie new signings Amortised.

Already just with Amortisation and Wages we are in excess of Turnover- however the gap has reduced!

States that our PROFIT- tax doesn't come into it with FFP- was £10,953,599

However this was Inclusive of a Profit- an incredible Profit no less-on Disposal of Player Registrations, of £38,159,454.

I believe allowable costs for us are about £3m per season.

Even so excluding the Profit on Transfers our loss appears to have been £27,565,855- knock £3m off that and we'd lose £24,565,855 in that season alone for FFP!

Loss excluding Player Trading=£18,058,144.

These are the facts.

As we can see, we lose a certain amount of cash and we lose a lot without Profit on Disposal.

We've seen turnover rise by nearly 50% in 2 seasons.

SL is at his equity limit- I mean he can put in as much as he likes, but £39m is inclusive of that equity contribution that counts towards upper loss limits.

I ask people, what more can the club do- what more can we do, splashing much more cash while at this level under the current system isn't really an option- what is to be done!

Seems that just to stand still, to recruit what we currently are- and sacking LJ will have added to that, McAllister too as well as costs of hiring Downing and SImpson, we need to raise a profit on disposal of £8-9m per season. Just to do what we are doing.

That profit on Transfers can vary a bit, because as stated if none made then it might be the case that we sign nobody from 2016 to 2019 and we are more self-financing- the wage bill rise can also add to need to increase revenue and profit though. Usually that £25m loss drops off but because of Covid it is now that loss, that profit then last and this season combined. Last seasons accounts will tell us a lot about our parameters this season!

Over to you lot...this is the situation and it'll further be complicated by Covid- when our accounts for 2019/20- so made up until 31st May 2020- are released, it'll tell us a lot about where we are at.

[ashton_fan]

Sums it up perfectly, we can't spend more on players than we get from sales, and we need to spend less than that to offset the unaffordable wage bill whereas the parachute teams have no such issues ie we start each season with a big disadvantage to at least half a dozen teams yet we can't understand why we only finish mid-table?

[Davefevs]

19/20s accounts are gonna be telling, but not as much as 20/21s.  For 19/20 you can expect a reduction in income of say 15%, but this year significantly more.

2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Sums it up perfectly, we can't spend more on players than we get from sales, and we need to spend less than that to offset the unaffordable wage bill whereas the parachute teams have no such issues ie we start each season with a big disadvantage to at least half a dozen teams yet we can't understand why we only finish mid-table?

...and increasing amortisation cost too.

[wittydisplayname]

3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Sums it up perfectly, we can't spend more on players than we get from sales, and we need to spend less than that to offset the unaffordable wage bill whereas the parachute teams have no such issues ie we start each season with a big disadvantage to at least half a dozen teams yet we can't understand why we only finish mid-table?

Great point and I think most of us get this. But for several years the message from the club has been that we must challenge for promotion, and have season on season progress. 
Even when they appointed Holden they continued with this narrative. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

How dare there is  a thread that highlights the problem with football finances and specifically the reality for BCFC.The real honest truth.

All we have to do is get rid of Lansdown(e) , the MA suit and , hey presto, we'll finally get the Club, Owner, Players and  Manager we so thoroughly deserve .We'll at last be able to compete on level terms with the gas and have some cracking derby matches.

[Midred]

Would LJ have sacrificed part of his severance package so that he could take another job this quickly? 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Midred said:

Would LJ have sacrificed part of his severance package so that he could take another job this quickly? 

It is likely that we continued to pay him rather than pay him a lump sum.  Him taking the Sunderland job has probably meant coming to a mutually agreeable pay off now.

[Scrumpys Dietary Advisor..]

Spend the money received in the January window on hiring the experienced manager that we have so desperately been needing for years....

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

Just now, Davefevs said:

It is likely that we continued to pay him rather than pay him a lump sum.  Him taking the Sunderland job has probably meant coming to a mutually agreeable pay off now.

How much do you think he paid us, Dave?

 

[tin]

55 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Sums it up perfectly, we can't spend more on players than we get from sales, and we need to spend less than that to offset the unaffordable wage bill whereas the parachute teams have no such issues ie we start each season with a big disadvantage to at least half a dozen teams yet we can't understand why we only finish mid-table?

True, but if we could get up this season, would a windfall not wipe this out and put us massively in the black? Considering the league is the weakest it’s been in several years, it makes the appointment of Holden even stranger when the board said the goal was PL. Of course, there’s no guarantee though. 

[robin_unreliant]

25 minutes ago, tin said:

True, but if we could get up this season, would a windfall not wipe this out and put us massively in the black?

Can you let me know what you've been drinking please as I'd need a fair few before thinking we could go up this season. 

[ashton_fan]

Not sure where the "windfall" is coming from. If you mean the Sky money after getting to the Prem that would all go on 2 or 3 signings and the increased wage bill, don't think we'd be in the black if we wanted to have any chance of staying up.

[Pezo]

51 minutes ago, tin said:

True, but if we could get up this season, would a windfall not wipe this out and put us massively in the black? Considering the league is the weakest it’s been in several years, it makes the appointment of Holden even stranger when the board said the goal was PL. Of course, there’s no guarantee though. 

That's a big if! What happens if we don't go up and don't get the big windfall? What happens if despite getting promoted and the big windfall we we get relegated? 

[Scrumpys Dietary Advisor..]

23 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Not sure where the "windfall" is coming from. If you mean the Sky money after getting to the Prem that would all go on 2 or 3 signings and the increased wage bill, don't think we'd be in the black if we wanted to have any chance of staying up.

Burnley seem to be managing ok....

[ashton_fan]

9 hours ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

Burnley seem to be managing ok....

Burnley are an established Prem team now, but they went down in their first Prem season then got re-promoted with parachute money. That's a difficult achievement to emulate.

[Clutton Caveman]

The perfect argument for a salary cap.

Perhaps at the same time we could cap agents fees

 

[Sheltons Army]

11 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Any more news on this salary cap? I think its a great idea.

Could it be that at end of the season we see Hunt, Baker, Rowe, Brunt, Adelakun, Paterson, Watkins and Diedhiou all moved on? I would probably only miss Paterson out of those.

Weimann probably least likely to be moved on I think with him having a year option, although this long term injury might change that. And Walsh I think we will want to keep, but of course has to sign new deal so he might want out and might leave too.

Mawson and Sessegnon returning to Fulham. And Mariappa contract is up next month I think. That would all really reduce our wage bill.

Can we use a mixture of returning loaned out players, the best youth players currently at the club and make new younger signings on a smaller wage, but adding more value to the squad. The rumour ofJephcott from Plymouth a good example. Might cost a million or 2, but at 20 years of age would be on far less wages than Diedhiou who we probably let go. Plus they would feel he has the potential to be sold on one day for a good profit.

And a good chance with our recruitment form that he will be another Engvall / Watkins / Adelukan 

Quote

I think we do have a few players that could be sold for big money. Bentley so far been outstanding this season, and I really do think could have prem interest if he keeps this up. O'Leary looked quality against Villa and was often winning motm for Shrewsbury last season. We saw he just needed consistency in his run in the side for us. Clearly has the ability, but the odd mistake meant he wasn't ready. I would trust him to be number 1 next season if we sell Bentley for big money.

Maybe the summer is a bit early to expect huge bids for Bakinson or Semenyo. Though who knows if they can continue to improve this season. Kelly went for crazy money and he couldn't even get in our side!

No matter what happens, Lansdown has said we will continue to invest.

 

I agree we might well lose Bentley unless we get our act together , but that would be about right - sell our one asset and important piece in the jigsaw and waste it on poor punts as we’ve made a master art in the last few years 

 

[Davefevs]

Here’s the reality folks.  Posted in Diedhiou contract thread too.

Although we are are a well run club, I think we’ve got carried away and are at a bit of key moment in terms of what happens next.

The following table is from Bristol City Holdings Ltd, the holding company that contains Bristol City FC Ltd and Ashton Gate.  Forget the Rugby, Basketball and Bristol Sport, that’s separate.  This is the cold hard accounts that matter....since we’ve been back in the Championship.

The good thing is that income has increased from £14.2m to £30.3m (113%) but as you can see our costs have risen by the same (112%).

The gap between income and total costs was £12.5m in 2016, now its £26.3m).  What does that mean?  It means to meet FFP compliance you have to sell your best players.

Thats fine in an inflationary market where even your duff signings turn in a profit.  But it’s unsustainable (in SL’s sustainable model) when the market turns, or some other event happens, e.g. covid or Brexit.

The bigger the gap between cost and income, the more you have to sell.  We sold Kelly, Reid, Flint and Bryan in the last financial year (above) plus other bits and pieces.  A profit was a rarity in City’s accounts.  It’s bought us some time, but Webster’s and Brownhill’s sales in the yet to be published accounts for 19/20 will be swallowed up by Covid lost income and over £20m of fees paid out, e.g. Kalas, Bentley, Palmer, Dasilva, plus loans like Afobe, etc.  Now we have what looks like the best part of a full year without the same levels of income.

The actual accounts might not look too bad, but the amortisation millstone around our necks for those signings will be with us for 2 or 3 more years.

In summary I actually think we’ve got carried away and need to rein it in. We need to go back to basics.

I don’t think it’s much of a surprise that new contract talks aren’t happening for your Pato’s and Hunt’s, and I do wonder whether we’ve had to take offers off of the table, especially for Diedhiou who is not first choice anymore.

Finally, who’s the next Webster or Brownhill that would earn us £5m?  I don’t see one.  Bentley is probably are biggest asset but in the current market I don’t see us getting £5m for him.

[KegCity]

14 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

How dare there is  a thread that highlights the problem with football finances and specifically the reality for BCFC.The real honest truth.

All we have to do is get rid of Lansdown(e) , the MA suit and , hey presto, we'll finally get the Club, Owner, Players and  Manager we so thoroughly deserve .We'll at last be able to compete on level terms with the gas and have some cracking derby matches.

I think most people appreciate the reality of the club's finances, it's more a case of how the money is spent than how much.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, KegCity said:

I think most people appreciate the reality of the club's finances, it's more a case of how the money is spent than how much.

I don’t believe they do.  Do they realise our costs are £25m more than our income?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

The perfect argument for a salary cap.

Perhaps at the same time we could cap agents fees

 

I think, though don't take it as red yet, that agents fees will be included under total remuneration under the proposed salary cap.

[Mr Popodopolous]

53 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Engvall was a terrible signing. I think our previous head scout got blamed for some of the foreign signings as that was apparently his main role, and he was sacked.

Watkins of course was not a young signing to add value to the squad. We paid 1.5 million I think. He was very good for Barnsley and failed at Norwich, but they seemed to use him in the wrong way. Plus he had injury problems which I think is the main reason.

I actually think Watkins looked really good in the handful for games last season. Bad signing though as LJ made the mistake in thinking he could get a player in bad form to come good again, a bit like Diony who was actually really good at previous club to the one we loaned him from! We have seen Watkins needs to be fit for a while to see the best of him, but he just can't seem to stay fit.

Adelakun was a terrible signing. We were after Potts, but Preston managed to get him. So we went for the next tall, powerful winger on the list that was Adeluakun. LJ probably wanted that 'profile' of player, as he used to say.

The problem with Adelukan seems to be that he doesn't work very hard. A bit like Palmer. Poor work rate player for a manager in LJ, and Holden seems similar, in wanting a team of busy bees.

So yep, definitely got some very wrong over the years. Eisa and Szmodics too, but at least we got our money back for them.

But I still think that policy can work, we just need to do it better.

I also think we should look into foreign market more for cheaper players. But we've got them wrong most of the time too.

I've always wondered why, post Louis-Jean leaving, we never hired a dedicated foreign scout- as you build up a club, you build up the Infrastructure- and a dedicated, foreign scout who has played aboard and has the relevant contacts and experience in addition to what we have/had seems like it might be an idea.

Foreign? Think it's been mixed- injury has played a part which has made definitive judgement harder IMO...did Pisano, Hegeler and Djuric e.g. not have medium to long term injuries here? Magnússon I think in a back 3 could have been quite useful, did fine at LCB when we had all those injuries during the golden period under LJ- with the Wright-Flint-Baker-Magnússon backline.

In the case of Hegeler eg, I query whether we saw the best of him- partly for tactical reasons (fair enough) and partly due to the injuries.

[Mr Popodopolous]

We certainly have a lot of players out of contract- that will undoubtedly help, we also move on a year in the FFP cycle- we'll finally, finally be rid of that 2017/18 loss of £25m and new starting point the £10m profit in 2018/19.

Technically it would be this season but Covid shifted things a bit.

@JonDolman Salary cap wise, I don't think clubs can agree. They agree with the basic principle but there will be wrangling over finer details I'd have thought. Plus a determination to stop clubs who might be on course to breach FFP getting away with it through transitional arrangements or similar- a number of clubs e.g. are wanting it to be in from summer 2022 and the current rules to remain for this and next season. Also some reports suggest it could run in tandem with FFP but that seems a logistical nightmare to me!

@Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. Interesting! Not so much how much we spend, more how it's spent? Brownhill sold, pure profit minus sell on to Preston and we show restraint in January- no Benkovic, Henriksen, Wells and we put the cash in the Pot marked "Manager/Management Team"- either for February onwards or the summer?

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Sums it up perfectly, we can't spend more on players than we get from sales, and we need to spend less than that to offset the unaffordable wage bill whereas the parachute teams have no such issues ie we start each season with a big disadvantage to at least half a dozen teams yet we can't understand why we only finish mid-table?

That needs reform too.

My loose idea at this stage, is for it to be paid as Loans- I don't want sides going under but I don't want anyone getting an unfair advantage- or an increase in unfair advantage that should probably be!

Loans- Loans Receivable, Balance Sheet or Cash Flow- maybe both- to help ease a transition but it absolutely will not help the Profit and Loss if done correctly- or shouldn't anyway.

This gives a club cash in the bank to ease a transition as let's be fair it's a cliff edge of £90m in TV money alone but prevents them from spending it on new Players- it puts them under pressure from Day 1 to start to make the necessary downsizing, and upsizing well you can forget that without major cutbacks. Most clubs do have relegation clauses anyway but the fall in income without Parachute Payments- I've no problem with helping clubs survive, ie remain solvent, but I have a significant problem with the advantage they can gain through it.

Some clubs use them as intended- some definitely do not!

This idea would also enable the EFL to in theory put quite a lot of them under a Business Plan as soon as they enter the Championship, thereby further restricting what they can spend over the next year or two- prior 2 year losses between £x and £y give them these powers.

[Sheltons Army]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I've always wondered why, post Louis-Jean leaving, we never hired a dedicated foreign scout- as you build up a club, you build up the Infrastructure- and a dedicated, foreign scout who has played aboard and has the relevant contacts and experience in addition to what we have/had seems like it might be an idea.

Foreign? Think it's been mixed- injury has played a part which has made definitive judgement harder IMO...did Pisano, Hegeler and Djuric e.g. not have medium to long term injuries here? Magnússon I think in a back 3 could have been quite useful, did fine at LCB when we had all those injuries during the golden period under LJ- with the Wright-Flint-Baker-Magnússon backline.

In the case of Hegeler eg, I query whether we saw the best of him- partly for tactical reasons (fair enough) and partly due to the injuries.

Personally , I think our foreign recruitment , probably save Kodja has been awful

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Personally , I think our foreign recruitment , probably save Kodja has been awful

Each to their own.

They've come from reasonable levels, reasonable academies quite a few of them. Internationals in a number of cases, Kodjia was definitely the pick though- and the one we made a great profit on too. He was a great find- real value, 19 goals, real profit.

On paper, at point of signing is there much difference between some of those we've signed and any number of players at this level in recent years. A lot of them relatively unknown for a start. I look at Brentford- yes they're better than us for sure overall- I look at Norwich, I look at Huddersfield of a few years ago and I look at Leeds in the few years leading up to promotion to some extent.

All these sides are better than us, yet I don't see a vastly different profile in terms of a lot of the foreign recruitment, certainly not at time of signing.

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

 

Looks like our summer business is looking pretty bad now.

On Bentley, if prem clubs are interested then couldn't we get closer to 10m? They still get their TV money. Ramsdale went to Sheffield United for 18.5.

Got to have interest from PL first.  If you could get PL interest then great, I agree, you would get more, but I’m not sure that’s coming.  Not something we can guarantee.  Suspect Brentford have a sell-on too, not that’s a big issue if you get £10m.

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think, though don't take it as red yet, that agents fees will be included under total remuneration under the proposed salary cap.

Depends on who pays the agent.  If club pays then absolutely will count towards the £18m.  Players should be paying their agents shouldn’t they!

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep agree. But if he keeps this up then I really do think we will get Prem interest. He is the modern day keeper, can maybe improve slightly too as some goalies do even in their late 20s. Maybe more a case of goalkeepers get more consistent with age, which we have already seen with Bentley.

I just think technically he can be prem quality for sure. His ability on crosses has surprised me this season. He just looks so comfortable now. 

Even as prem back up it would be worth spending 10 million or so if he keeps this up. A very important role in the huge pressures of staying in prem or doing well in prem to have a very good back up goalie, and as he is the modern day ball playing goalkeeper, he'd be just right for that.

Just imagine we did get £10m, say we paid £3m (mid-range of £2-4m rumoured), that’s £7m @ 15% = £1.05m to Brentford so net £9m, minus £1.5m current amortised value....so £7.5m transfer profit.

Who’s the next player to help close the financial gap?

[bristolcitysweden]

Each single player signed apart from Bentley, Kalas and O'Leary is wasted money thank's to Ashton and his football knowledge 

[Mr Popodopolous]

No sell on value with DaSilva? Down the line I mean?

We have quite a good squad, age profile wise- Williams, Walsh, Massengo all 25 or under- see as also mentioned DaSilva- could Kalas not be saleable at least as a squad player?

53 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said:

Each single player signed apart from Bentley, Kalas and O'Leary is wasted money thank's to Ashton and his football knowledge 

O'Leary was through our academy.

I don't agree with your assessment of the squad btw.