Take your pick

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, SecretSam said:

1. They might not want to come 

2. I wouldn't want Colin here, either. Vile man, vile football.

1. They obviously don’t want to come here at the moment - probably because of a senior management structure that would severely restrict their undoubted abilities and not allow them to flourish at Bristol City

2. Neil is far from being a ‘vile man’ ...

[The Bard]

17 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Nigel Pearson sat for hours with Jamie Vardy in Jamie’s home persuading him that signing for Leicester was a better option than signing for Blackburn... above and beyond, he kept Leicester in the premier league and laid the foundations for them winning the premier league title - Pearson is a very underrated manager ...

I like the fact he's close to a meltdown. I'd like to think someone involved in the playing coaching or managing was having a meltdown about what's happening atm but I suspect they're not.

 

More meltdowns needed rather than worrying about the poor loves not getting new contracts. 

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

 

I agree with a lot of what you say, but Bruce is working under Ashley.
If someone saw potential in us and a good chance to get promoted, I think we could get a real good coach. I don't see (from the new mans perspective) it as impossible. Most of these men would be very confident in themselves and would probably back themselves to change minds.
From the other side, I see Ashley as a bit of a Billy Big Spuds and he might feel threatened by someone experienced that could actually do the job everybody wants.
What would need in that scenario is Lansdown to act as a real leader and set boundaries for Ashton. It's the only way we actually do progress IMO.

It needs SL to realise the club set up is broken, it needs change from the top. He surely must realise that after all this time it's not working.

It's going to be mad on here next season when Forest are top 6.

[sludge]

17 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Experience at this level?

Achieved promotion to the Premier League?

Immediately available?

Not likely to be too abrasive for SL?

The only one I can think of who ticks all those boxes is Nigel Adkins. He would definitely be a far better option than continuing with Holden.

Based on above criteria, I look forward to a short-list of Dave Bassett, Phil Brown and Ian Holloway

[Mr Popodopolous]

Let's see if Warnock takes Middlesbrough up tbh @BS4 on Tour... or even to the playoffs this season.

They've actually hit a wall form wise for a little while now. He is over 70 as well IIRC? Recent League form, 2-1-6 and Fortress Riverside it ain't.

Steve Bruce likes a bit of cash to spend, not many Championship clubs will have that in the near term.

McCarthy or Hughton of those 4 might be my pick. One is unavailable, one might become available in the summer- only a 6 month deal.

Cardiff are on a bit of a roll and have shot up from lower midtable to 7th- though tbh the chasing pack outside the top 6 have been quite feeble of late- it's wide open for someone to press for 6yth and maybe even 5th.

None of your 4 play especially flowing football though, but it can vary.

[LondonBristolian]

If I had to place a bet on next City manager, I’d go for Ryan Lowe.

I’m not saying that is who I would go for - he would be top of my list of lower league/up and coming options  but that is not the route I want us to go for - but it is who I reckon it is most likely to be.

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Let's see if Warnock takes Middlesbrough up tbh @BS4 on Tour... or even to the playoffs this season.

They've actually hit a wall form wise for a little while now. He is over 70 as well IIRC? Recent League form, 2-1-6 and Fortress Riverside it ain't.

Steve Bruce likes a bit of cash to spend, not many Championship clubs will have that in the near term.

McCarthy or Hughton of those 4 might be my pick. One is unavailable, one might become available in the summer- only a 6 month deal.

Cardiff are on a bit of a roll and have shot up from lower midtable to 7th- though tbh the chasing pack outside the top 6 have been quite feeble of late- it's wide open for someone to press for 6yth and maybe even 5th.

None of your 4 play especially flowing football though, but it can vary.

His current job is irrelevant - I’ve been screaming for Warnock for years - his record breaking number of promotions kinda backs up my advocating ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

His current job is irrelevant - I’ve been screaming for Warnock for years - his record breaking number of promotions kinda backs up my advocating ...

How long can 72 year old managers remain effective? I wonder if he's coming to the end of the line but who knows.

I also wonder about the style of play, he's not been known for flowing football, though a few jobs have shown more variety.

Not as bad as Pulis certainly. Not necessarily the high press, flowing passing, possession either though.

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How long can 72 year old managers remain effective? I wonder if he's coming to the end of the line but who knows.

I also wonder about the style of play, he's not been known for flowing football, though a few jobs have shown more variety.

Not as bad as Pulis certainly. Not necessarily the high press, flowing passing, possession either though.

Cheers for the reply Mr P - I’m not saying we should go for Neil now - I’ve just highlighted that we have overlooked him constantly when he was busy being the most successful manager in English football history (promotions) and he also made no secret of his admiration for our club and hinted loads that he’d love to be our manager - we missed out ...

[The Wild Bunch]

22 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I don’t think any proven, experienced, successful manager at this level will be able to work under our regime - I reckon as soon as they meet Ashton and get his take on things they just say: Really? Have you read my CV? Do you know about my track record at this level? Do you know what I have done and what I can do? And you want me to run everything by you before I make any decision despite you having a background in football that doesn’t back up your power trip? I can make this club successful, do you want me to just do it or do you want to stand in the way to justify your inflated salary?

I’d hate to think that is true, but somehow I think it is - yet sooooo many on here just don’t want the successful, proven guys at our club  - you know who you are ... remember the established young lady on here who said a few years ago she’d push everyone in the river by the Cumberland Basin if they wanted Warnock as manager?!

... people like Bruce, McCarthy, Hughton, Warnock will get you out of the championship and into the Premier League - it doesn’t mean you have to then stick with them as managers when you are up there - lovely, nice guys like Millen, McInnes, SOD, Cotterill, LJ, Holden will do ok as championship managers, but they won’t take us to the next level...

...just as football players all find their level and realise that is the level they will reach and no higher, so do managers, they just don’t tell their bosses - I have ranted and raved and pushed for Warnock on here for years, but I’ve always said that he isn’t a premier league manager - I’ve always said we should just use him to get us up and out of this division - I said the same on here about Cotterill, as soon as he promoted us with that amazing 2014/2015 season I said we should say ‘cheers Steve, here’s your payoff, thanks for an amazing season but we are gonna go with a gaffer who has a proven track record at this new level’ - we need to be more ruthless!

Poch replacing Adkins is a good example of taking it to the next level.  We missed our chance in the summer.

[Sheltons Army]

Pray that Cardiff get snobby and don’t extend Big Micks stay

Approach him , apologise profusely numerous times that we didn’t appoint him and ask ever so nicely whether he might fancy coming and promise him some backing and a decent length contract 

 

Will never happen *sigh*

[Mr Popodopolous]

Cardiff if they stay down might need to be making cutbacks. Last year of Parachute Payments so he might become available in the circs, or find that no more Wilson and Ojo if he does stay which might not be for him.

[Superjack]

4 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

If I had to place a bet on next City manager, I’d go for Ryan Lowe.

I’m not saying that is who I would go for - he would be top of my list of lower league/up and coming options  but that is not the route I want us to go for - but it is who I reckon it is most likely to be.

Unlike most, I wouldn't have been unhappy with that in the summer. And I certainly wouldn't now.

[LondonBristolian]

8 hours ago, Superjack said:

Unlike most, I wouldn't have been unhappy with that in the summer. And I certainly wouldn't now.

I think there is a chance he would be a very good appointment. As I understand it, he plays good football, he develops young players and he gets teams promoted. Every appointment is a gamble but i think he has as much chance as anyone else of doing a good job.

My concern is that, after people being underwhelmed by Holden’s appointment, a lower league appointment would frustrate a massive section of the fans, he would have a huge challenge getting people onside and it would quickly turn toxic if results did not go his way.

Much as I think it is a bit a myth that an experienced manager is more likely to get us promoted, part of me thinks a higher profile manager with a bit of experience would be a sensible appointment just to lower the temperate around the team and reassure fans about the club’s ambition. I don’t necessarily think it is more of a guarantee of success but I do think maybe it will calm the mood a little. 

But, in football terms alone, I’d be fine with Lowe.

[Red Exile]

40 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think there is a chance he would be a very good appointment. As I understand it, he plays good football, he develops young players and he gets teams promoted. Every appointment is a gamble but i think he has as much chance as anyone else of doing a good job.

My concern is that, after people being underwhelmed by Holden’s appointment, a lower league appointment would frustrate a massive section of the fans, he would have a huge challenge getting people onside and it would quickly turn toxic if results did not go his way.

Much as I think it is a bit a myth that an experienced manager is more likely to get us promoted, part of me thinks a higher profile manager with a bit of experience would be a sensible appointment just to lower the temperate around the team and reassure fans about the club’s ambition. I don’t necessarily think it is more of a guarantee of success but I do think maybe it will calm the mood a little. 

But, in football terms alone, I’d be fine with Lowe.

Any appointment has to have some logic behind it for fans to buy into it. The problem with Holden was that was almost impossible to construct any narrative which suggested that a more or less anonymous member of the backroom team with next to no managerial experience was a better candidate than the names that been circulating. And almost no effort was made to construct that narrative.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

Any appointment has to have some logic behind it for fans to buy into it. The problem with Holden was that was almost impossible to construct any narrative which suggested that a more or less anonymous member of the backroom team with next to no managerial experience was a better candidate than the names that been circulating. And almost no effort was made to construct that narrative.

I definitely agree with that. If the club had done what Brentford or Bournemouth did, when they appointed their assistants, and moved immediately to appoint Holden then I think it would have both avoided all the speculation and created a narrative that the club wanted continuity. And it might have still looked a poor appointment but could have looked like a plan.

But a seven week gap, big name speculation, apparent interviews and turn to the assistant at the last minute comes across like dumping your long term partner cos you think you no longer fancy them, spending a month publicly chasing models on dating sites, finally turning to a long term friend with a crush on you that you have spent the last decade rejecting and trying to convince everyone they are the love of your life.

I still think, if the club are not careful, fans will quickly construct the narrative of any lower league appointment to be one of a lack of ambition. I do agree the club could overcome that if they sell the appointment in the right way but I think they would need to act quickly and proactively to do so. At the moment, I don’t have a massive amount of faith in their ability to do so.

[Red Exile]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I definitely agree with that. If the club had done what Brentford or Bournemouth did, when they appointed their assistants, and moved immediately to appoint Holden then I think it would have both avoided all the speculation and created a narrative that the club wanted continuity. And it might have still looked a poor appointment but could have looked like a plan.

But a seven week gap, big name speculation, apparent interviews and turn to the assistant at the last minute comes across like dumping your long term partner cos you think you no longer fancy them, spending a month publicly chasing models on Instagram sites, finally turning to a long term friend with a crush on you that you have spent the last decade rejecting and trying to convince everyone they are the love of your life.

I still think, if the club are not careful, fans will quickly construct the narrative of any lower league appointment to be one of a lack of ambition. I do agree the club could overcome that if they sell the appointment in the right way but I think they would need to act quickly and proactively to do so. At the moment, I don’t have a massive amount of faith in their ability to do so.

The statements Gregor picked up last night regarding the Chairman's whereabouts and the turning down of suggested recruits - and the timing of those statements - after Holden and SL had spoken on the record, suggest fairly chaotic management of the narrative at the moment.

[Coppello]

Looking at the list of people linked with the Bournemouth job of David Wagner, Patrick Vieira and John Terry, I'd be happy with the first two although the second may be unrealistic. Paul Cook is the other obvious choice who would certainly put a rocket up the players' asses. 

[LondonBristolian]

On 14/02/2021 at 23:47, BS4 on Tour... said:

I don’t think any proven, experienced, successful manager at this level will be able to work under our regime - I reckon as soon as they meet Ashton and get his take on things they just say: Really? Have you read my CV? Do you know about my track record at this level? Do you know what I have done and what I can do? And you want me to run everything by you before I make any decision despite you having a background in football that doesn’t back up your power trip? I can make this club successful, do you want me to just do it or do you want to stand in the way to justify your inflated salary?

I’d hate to think that is true, but somehow I think it is - yet sooooo many on here just don’t want the successful, proven guys at our club  - you know who you are ... remember the established young lady on here who said a few years ago she’d push everyone in the river by the Cumberland Basin if they wanted Warnock as manager?!

... people like Bruce, McCarthy, Hughton, Warnock will get you out of the championship and into the Premier League - it doesn’t mean you have to then stick with them as managers when you are up there - lovely, nice guys like Millen, McInnes, SOD, Cotterill, LJ, Holden will do ok as championship managers, but they won’t take us to the next level...

...just as football players all find their level and realise that is the level they will reach and no higher, so do managers, they just don’t tell their bosses - I have ranted and raved and pushed for Warnock on here for years, but I’ve always said that he isn’t a premier league manager - I’ve always said we should just use him to get us up and out of this division - I said the same on here about Cotterill, as soon as he promoted us with that amazing 2014/2015 season I said we should say ‘cheers Steve, here’s your payoff, thanks for an amazing season but we are gonna go with a gaffer who has a proven track record at this new level’ - we need to be more ruthless!

I think you over-simplify things a bit. 

I'd like McCarthy but he's had two career promotions, the last one twelve years ago. Bruce is a good manager but has only got two Championship clubs promoted - admittedly it could have been more if he'd stayed longer at other clubs - and struggled at Aston Villa with a way, way bigger budget than ours. Warnock is a very good manager but I think he is also very shrewd at taking the right jobs with players he can get the best of. I think he would have been a superb appointment after Gary Johnson left and maybe even after Cotts but I don't think he'd be the right manager to get the best out of the players we've got at the moment. He's had a lot of promotions but he's certainly not been a success everywhere he has gone, even in the Championship. I understand the arguments for all four being appointed but it's not really accurate to say that any of them are guaranteed to get teams promoted, only that they have done so before. 

I think the harsher indictment for me is that Mark Ashton and the board are failing on their own terms. Even if you agree with the strategy of appointing young, upcoming coaches from the lower leagues, the fact remains that, at the point Cotterill started to struggle in the Championship, Dean Smith was the manager of Walsall (he left for Brentford before we sacked Cotts) and Chris Wilder was at Northampton. That's two current Premier League managers who we could have attracted early in their careers who instead succeeded elsewhere. Similarly we could have moved for Sean Dyche back in 2012 when he was unfairly sacked after doing a good job at Watford. Instead Burnley did and are an established premier league team. My issue isn't a failure to attract proven managers. It's that, where we've gambled on upcoming managers, we've shown no instinct for making the right choices. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think you over-simplify things a bit. 

I'd like McCarthy but he's had two career promotions, the last one twelve years ago. Bruce is a good manager but has only got two Championship clubs promoted - admittedly it could have been more if he'd stayed longer at other clubs - and struggled at Aston Villa with a way, way bigger budget than ours. Warnock is a very good manager but I think he is also very shrewd at taking the right jobs with players he can get the best of. I think he would have been a superb appointment after Gary Johnson left and maybe even after Cotts but I don't think he'd be the right manager to get the best out of the players we've got at the moment. He's had a lot of promotions but he's certainly not been a success everywhere he has gone, even in the Championship. I understand the arguments for all four being appointed but it's not really accurate to say that any of them are guaranteed to get teams promoted, only that they have done so before. 

I think the harsher indictment for me is that Mark Ashton and the board are failing on their own terms. Even if you agree with the strategy of appointing young, upcoming coaches from the lower leagues, the fact remains that, at the point Cotterill started to struggle in the Championship, Dean Smith was the manager of Walsall (he left for Brentford before we sacked Cotts) and Chris Wilder was at Northampton. That's two current Premier League managers who we could have attracted early in their careers who instead succeeded elsewhere. Similarly we could have moved for Sean Dyche back in 2012 when he was unfairly sacked after doing a good job at Watford. Instead Burnley did and are an established premier league team. My issue isn't a failure to attract proven managers. It's that, where we've gambled on upcoming managers, we've shown no instinct for making the right choices. 

Cheers for the reply. I think you’ve trivialised the achievements of both McCarthy and Bruce in your response.

Firstly, saying McCarthy has two promotions in his career ignores his superb track record. In his first season as a manager he took Millwall to 3rd place in the championship. At Sunderland he took them to the championship play offs in his first full season there and in his second season he took them into the premier league as champions of the championship with 94 points.

At Wolves he joined a club under unbelievable financial constraints, he had to build a squad of young players, lower league free transfers and loans. In his first season at Molineux he took them into the championship play offs and in his second season he took Wolves to 7th place in the championship and in his third season he took Wolves into the premier league as champions of the championship, they were top of the table for 42 weeks that season - he then managed them for three seasons in the premier league.

And it could be argued that his greatest achievement was keeping Ipswich competitive in the championship for six seasons when during his spell there he had LESS than £1m PER SEASON to spend on transfer fees to sign players. Look what happened to Ipswich after he left them.

And saying Steve Bruce has only promoted two clubs to the premier league is like saying Alex Ferguson only won the premier league with one club - Bruce has won promotion to the premier league from the championship on four occasions ... twice with Brum and twice with Hull - he also took Hull to the FA Cup final where they were two up vs Arsenal after ten minutes! 

Anyway, I just thought I’d stand up for the records of two fine managers at our level ...

[LondonBristolian]

16 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Cheers for the reply. I think you’ve trivialised the achievements of both McCarthy and Bruce in your response.

Firstly, saying McCarthy has two promotions in his career ignores his superb track record. In his first season as a manager he took Millwall to 3rd place in the championship. At Sunderland he took them to the championship play offs in his first full season there and in his second season he took them into the premier league as champions of the championship with 94 points.

At Wolves he joined a club under unbelievable financial constraints, he had to build a squad of young players, lower league free transfers and loans. In his first season at Molineux he took them into the championship play offs and in his second season he took Wolves to 7th place in the championship and in his third season he took Wolves into the premier league as champions of the championship, they were top of the table for 42 weeks that season - he then managed them for three seasons in the premier league.

And it could be argued that his greatest achievement was keeping Ipswich competitive in the championship for six seasons when during his spell there he had LESS than £1m PER SEASON to spend on transfer fees to sign players. Look what happened to Ipswich after he left them.

And saying Steve Bruce has only promoted two clubs to the premier league is like saying Alex Ferguson only won the premier league with one club - Bruce has won promotion to the premier league from the championship on four occasions ... twice with Brum and twice with Hull - he also took Hull to the FA Cup final where they were two up vs Arsenal after ten minutes! 

Anyway, I just thought I’d stand up for the records of two fine managers at our level ...

I'm not denying both are very good managers. I'm just pointing out that no managerial appointment, regardless of pedigree, is any sort of guarantee of promotion.

You just need to see Bruce at Villa, Warnock at Leeds, Karanka at Forest, Eriksson at Leicester and Pearson at Derby to see that there are numerous cases of high calibre managers, often with substantial financial backing, failing to get their team promoted. Clearly experience can be a good thing but there is no managerial appointment we could make that would be a failsafe guarantee of promotion. 

[YGBjammy]

It's just so sad to think that our stock is so much lower now than it was in the summer in respect to appointing a proven manager.

There's names on the big list someone posted who in the summer I thought we had a chance at getting, but now we have no chance at.

We'll probably get Ryan Lowe in. Lansdown seems obsessed with finding "hidden gems" from lower down or internal (and it basically never works). Lansdown would LOVE to find the next Dyche or Wilder etc, but I have no faith that he will with the track record so far. Although I guess it only takes one to work.

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'm not denying both are very good managers. I'm just pointing out that no managerial appointment, regardless of pedigree, is any sort of guarantee of promotion.

You just need to see Bruce at Villa, Warnock at Leeds, Karanka at Forest, Eriksson at Leicester and Pearson at Derby to see that there are numerous cases of high calibre managers, often with substantial financial backing, failing to get their team promoted. Clearly experience can be a good thing but there is no managerial appointment we could make that would be a failsafe guarantee of promotion. 

Fair enough, but with due respect, you watered down the records of both McCarthy and Bruce - you dampened down McCarthy’s career by saying he’d ‘only won two promotions’ - failing to mention that he has won the championship title twice - taking two clubs who’d been in considerable strife up into the premier league as champions of the championship. You also ignored his phenomenal achievements at both of those clubs prior to their promotions and at other clubs.

And you dampened down Bruce’s record by saying ‘he’d only promoted two clubs’ - failing to point out that he has won promotion from the championship to the premier league on four occasions - and he jointly holds the record for the most promotions to the premier league. You didn’t mention any of that. 

And your post above lists ‘Bruce at Villa’ along with many others saying they ‘failed to get their team promoted’ - you are correct, but Bruce took Villa to the championship play off final, and, as we well know, anything can happen in that lottery of a game. Again, you chose not to mention that ...

Anyway, it’s a good debate, cheers ...