Passing

[And Its Smith]

The latest passing accuracy stats. I don’t think seeing us so low down in terms of accuracy and number of passes will surprise anyone. What is an ongoing concern is that, unlike WBA, our game plan isn’t necessarily to be that low down. We are inaccurate in our passes but not because we are direct due to a game plan necessarily.  

[DaveF]

We're actually higher than I expected to be fair!

[Davefevs]

Correct.  The trend is downwards too.  Over the first 6-8 games most of our stats were hovering around mid-table, a few just below….shots / goals conceded top hakf (believe it or not).  But over the last 6 games we’ve slumped right down.

[Abraham Romanovich]

2 minutes ago, DaveF said:

We're actually higher than I expected to be fair!

I was surprised we had a game plan.

[Simon bristol]

2 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

I was surprised we had a game plan.

Agreed, some of our attempts at playing football have been pathetic, kicking it long and playing percentages, badly

[Lanterne Rouge]

Baggies are a bit of a strange one aren`t they? Bottom?

[Wiltshire robin]

7 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Baggies are a bit of a strange one aren`t they? Bottom?

Could it mean they do lots of balls into the box 

[Carey 6]

Tell you what might help it a little, if we stopped doing that absolutely shit tactic at kick off of playing it back, then hoofing it up the line to Baker and hoping he wins the header. 9/10 times the ball just sails out of play. 

Not sure if we'll still do it without Baker, we used to do similar years ago but I've not seen it for a while until recently. Never understood it. 

[swanker]

West Brom’s fans thought that Simpson’s attempted back pass was one of the best they’d seen all season

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Tell you what might help it a little, if we stopped doing that absolutely shit tactic at kick off of playing it back, then hoofing it up the line to Baker and hoping he wins the header. 9/10 times the ball just sails out of play. 

Not sure if we'll still do it without Baker, we used to do similar years ago but I've not seen it for a while until recently. Never understood it. 

With hopefully a return to a back 4 and Atkinson back in his best position I see more hope of playing a bit of football from the back tomorrow.

 

[Carey 6]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

With hopefully a return to a back 4 and Atkinson back in his best position I see more hope of playing a bit of football from the back tomorrow.

 

Lets hope so. 

I cant' say I've watched too much of Barnsley this season, I know they're doing poorly but no idea why. 

Do they still attempt to press high & replicate the style of play they had under Ismael or has it gone another way?

Obviously losing Dike was massive for them.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Carey 6

[1960maaan]

Early signs were NP had got us moving and making angles better, still looking to get forward quickly, but more pass than lump.
As things have gone on we have regressed. We haven't kept the ball well for ages, lack of confidence or whatever we take the easy option too often. Even from the keeper we no longer ever pretend to play out, 80% of the time we go long.  IMO it's part of the reason we can't see games out, and part of the game we need to improve. Maybe when, what many look at as out best MF play together (James/Williams/HNM), we might be able to look after the ball better.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Lets hope so. 

I cant' say I've watched too much of Barnsley this season, I know they're doing poorly but no idea why. 

Do they still attempt to press high & replicate the style of play they had under Ismael or has it gone another way?

Obviously losing Dike was massive for them.

Still direct, but along with that big old lump Dike gone, they miss Mowatt in midfield too, aggression, quality left peg, etc.

The other two players missing of real note are:

- Sollbauer - gone back home I think

- Mads Andersen - imposing, aerial ball winning centre back - knee injury

Conor Chaplin, more bit part last season has gone to Ipswich, Carlton Morris is injured.  Between these two, Dike, Woodrow and Fieser they provided 60 mins of high intensity press every game before often a triple sub.  The 3/7 sub rule is a good example of why 5 shouldn’t be allowed imho.  I suspect it’s had an impact on how they press.

So, ultimately they are weaker than last season by some distance.

8 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I expect Barnsley would have been near the bottom last season too under the same manager.

Why?  Recruited in similar vain to the previous managers.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Davefevs

[Waconda]

57 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Tell you what might help it a little, if we stopped doing that absolutely shit tactic at kick off of playing it back, then hoofing it up the line to Baker and hoping he wins the header. 9/10 times the ball just sails out of play. 

Not sure if we'll still do it without Baker, we used to do similar years ago but I've not seen it for a while until recently. Never understood it. 

We used to do something similar with Fielding in goal, always kicked it into touch, then it was revealed this was on purpose to give the opposition a throw in deep(ish) in their half so that we could press and win the ball high up.

[Davefevs]

Got you. Ta.

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I mean Barnsley would have been near the bottom of the possession stat table last season under the same manager. Though I'm guessing on that. They didn't seem to have much possession in how they played.

Yeah last season Barnsley great example of how much game plan matters over quality. Though they had a solid enough unit and a little bit of quality in there too, it seemed to be largely down to how they must have been drilled to play.

That Styles always looked good whenever I saw him. How he comes in field on his right foot adding a number in the otherwise 2 man midfield.

Similar to Canos drifting into good positions from left wing back when Brentford played us end of last season. 

If we continue with wing backs then Dasilva was coming in field a lot on the rare occasion he played under Holden. Doesn't have to be exactly that but could do with more imagination how our players rotate positions.

On the subject of wings backs and Barnsley, did those 2 Britton and Styles ever not play? It goes to show players don't necessarily need a rest. Ridiculously hard work playing 3 games a week all season as wing backs in that team.

Love that triple sub strategy. Used to hate seeing defenders come on for us, or keeping on Wilbs because he could head corners, or Fam. We will have no threat any more up top as their legs are gone so you can have more corners, but we will head them away! Always prefer to go for another and if not then making it harder for opposing teams to attack.

Nothing worse than a team coming at us as we get deeper and deeper and they have nothing to worry about the other way.

This why NP has been so under whelming so far. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

We used to do something similar with Fielding in goal, always kicked it into touch, then it was revealed this was on purpose to give the opposition a throw in deep(ish) in their half so that we could press and win the ball high up.

That’s not strictly true….that’s just trotted out to look like it was meant that way.  The reason was 1) take advantage of height / aerial ability of Bryan / Mags 2) losing the ball there is less impacting (so yes I agree in part in what you say) than losing it in the centre of the pitch, 3) winning it there gets you up the pitch quickly. But he didn’t purposely kick it into touch.

But unfortunately, poorly executed by FF.  the margin for error small and FF not accurate enough.

[Clutton Caveman]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

The latest passing accuracy stats. I don’t think seeing us so low down in terms of accuracy and number of passes will surprise anyone. What is an ongoing concern is that, unlike WBA, our game plan isn’t necessarily to be that low down. We are inaccurate in our passes but not because we are direct due to a game plan necessarily.  

Hard to pass to players who are hiding. Our movement off the ball has been awful for years

[Waconda]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s not strictly true….that’s just trotted out to look like it was meant that way.  The reason was 1) take advantage of height / aerial ability of Bryan / Mags 2) losing the ball there is less impacting (so yes I agree in part in what you say) than losing it in the centre of the pitch, 3) winning it there gets you up the pitch quickly. But he didn’t purposely kick it into touch.

But unfortunately, poorly executed by FF.  the margin for error small and FF not accurate enough.

It's not my opinion by the way. 

I heard different to you.

Edited October 29, 2021 by VT05763

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

On the subject of wings backs and Barnsley, did those 2 Britton and Styles ever not play? It goes to show players don't necessarily need a rest. Ridiculously hard work playing 3 games a week all season as wing backs in that team.

This is the levels of fitness Nige is trying to get to.  He’s said he doesn’t really believe in rotation / rest, all about competition for the shirt.

What also needs bearing in mind is intensity v distance.  Much easier to press intently over 5m than 25m.  Was the beauty of that 17/18 period.  Hunt in packs over short distances, don’t get passed around one-off pressers.  When you get it back, keep it.  We did that well in 17/18, tight units, working together.

Weimann and O’Dowda (you won’t like this) sometimes (not always) press on their own and just get played around.  They never quite get there.  Some of that is because we are too stretched as a team, but not always.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It's not my opinion by the way. 

I heard different to you.

Shows how badly executed it was, because he didn’t always find touch, and certainly not deep in their half

[CiderJar]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

The latest passing accuracy stats. I don’t think seeing us so low down in terms of accuracy and number of passes will surprise anyone. What is an ongoing concern is that, unlike WBA, our game plan isn’t necessarily to be that low down. We are inaccurate in our passes but not because we are direct due to a game plan necessarily.  

A minor point maybe, but we are only a point and a place behind Swansea in the league.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

A minor point maybe, but we are only a point and a place behind Swansea in the league.

The summary of this is that there is more than one way to play the game and get results.  If we are gonna play direct / forced by our opponents to play more direct, we need to execute it better, so we become more West Brom, than Barnsley!  God, that’s a dodgy thing to say ahead of tomorrow! Eeeeek!

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

A minor point maybe, but we are only a point and a place behind Swansea in the league.

Absolutely and the table above doesn’t necessarily correlate to success. They have been better than us recently though and seem to be improving the longer Russell Martin managed them. Early days there was expected errors in their play as Martin’s way is somewhat different to his predecessor.  

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

We have a very mobile pair in Kalas and Atkinson if we were to play a higher line.

Tell me about it!  

[CiderJar]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Tell me about it!  

Fevs do you have stats to back up that Kalas is the fastest player at the club?

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

Fevs do you have stats to back up that Kalas is the fastest player at the club?

Nope, physical data is impossible to get without £s!!

My eyes tell me he is effortlessly quick.  Atkinson is meant to be quick too, albeit takes a little while to get into his slightly peculiar stride.

In a very simplified manner, if you play high and predict you’re gonna have to chase back, you’re half a yard ahead in your head anyway.  If you play high, your midfield and forward can probably put more pressure on the passer of the ball, looking to go over the top.

In the 90s a lot of games were played out in the 10 yards either side of the half way line.  Was a bit boring at times, but I think it would suit us to play high.

[redysteadygo]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Flint running over to the touchline for a Fielding kick

The latest goal kick xcrnario that narks me is when the "two centre backs " loiter in the area which normally attracts 2/3 opponents forward to cover. Having achieved what I consider a slight advantage if we now kick long Bentley waves the defenders forward and after an age he kicks long into an even more congested area around the halfway line.

 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

The latest goal kick xcrnario that narks me is when the "two centre backs " loiter in the area which normally attracts 2/3 opponents forward to cover. Having achieved what I consider a slight advantage if we now kick long Bentley waves the defenders forward and after an age he kicks long into an even more congested area around the halfway line.

 

It’s one of those scenarios where the you need to see where the rest of the players are.  You’re not just eliminating their 2 or 3 players who are pressing the centre backs and keeper, but whether you eliminate other players that then give you a numerical advantage….versus the risk of a header coming back into a position that leaves them with numerical advantage over you.  Not easy to explain in words.  Pros and cons, but bear in mind the stats will tell us the opponent will win more headers from a long kick than we will. Possession off the loose ball is key.

So I drew some pics.

Bentley kicks to Martin.  James and Massengo stay goalside of their midfield markers.  Ball win by Helik, drops into a position where Barnsley have 3 players close to it, Wells our closest.  They probably get position in a good situation to launch a quick attack.

James and Massengo gamble by making sure they are ahead of their men.  In this situation James and Wells likely get the dropping ball rather than Barnsley LWB.  But what if Bentley scuffs his kick.  The CM is in front of James and it’s 3 v 2.  In the scenario above v Barnsley 343 what we really need is Kalas to suck his man closer and leave a chip ball to Tanner, who then overloads their LWB with Weimann.

All very easy on paper / screen!

Hope the pics makes sense.  Very crude, but they sort of explain it.

[redysteadygo]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s one of those scenarios where the you need to see where the rest of the players are.  You’re not just eliminating their 2 or 3 players who are pressing the centre backs and keeper, but whether you eliminate other players that then give you a numerical advantage….versus the risk of a header coming back into a position that leaves them with numerical advantage over you.  Not easy to explain in words.  Pros and cons, but bear in mind the stats will tell us the opponent will win more headers from a long kick than we will. Possession off the loose ball is key.

So I drew some pics.

Bentley kicks to Martin.  James and Massengo stay goalside of their midfield markers.  Ball win by Helik, drops into a position where Barnsley have 3 players close to it, Wells our closest.  They probably get position in a good situation to launch a quick attack.

James and Massengo gamble by making sure they are ahead of their men.  In this situation James and Wells likely get the dropping ball rather than Barnsley LWB.  But what if Bentley scuffs his kick.  The CM is in front of James and it’s 3 v 2.  In the scenario above v Barnsley 343 what we really need is Kalas to suck his man closer and leave a chip ball to Tanner, who then overloads their LWB with Weimann.

All very easy on paper / screen!

Hope the pics makes sense.  Very crude, but they sort of explain it.

Yes I get that Dave, but whilst the ball is in flight our players starting from the edge of the box could be in their positions, sprinting past the opposition players, to cover a returning ball with the opposition players still returning to positions and not already set up.