Passing

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Yes I get that Dave, but whilst the ball is in flight our players starting from the edge of the box could be in their positions, sprinting past the opposition players, to cover a returning ball with the opposition players still returning to positions and not already set up.

Yes, they could absolutely be doing that….but they could also see the ball go back over their head too and be wrong side.

At the end of the day it’s all about risk and reward.

There are definitely situations where (I think) you are better off being wrong-side, but that depends on lots of other things.

As a centre-half I occasionally played as a holding midfielder.  Sometimes I’d have a midfield opponent who wanted to play in the gap between me and my fellow CBs.  If we we going long from our keeper, I would happily go wrong-side of him, reckoning that if a opponent header came back near me, it wasn’t gonna get to the player I’m meant to be marking, and I could move into a bit of space with the ball.  Had I marked goal-side, my opponent would get to the ball first….and I’d also be right on top of my fellow defenders.

So, swings and roundabouts and very dependent on other things.

Lots of stuff about CBs splitting wide, but unless you’re really good at it (Man City / Liverpool), all you do is negate the ability to get your full-backs on the ball.  Lots of play I see like a rubber band or several linked together, sometimes you can stretch it to effect, other times doing that affects another rubber band.

[redysteadygo]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, they could absolutely be doing that….but they could also see the ball go back over their head too and be wrong side.

At the end of the day it’s all about risk and reward.

There are definitely situations where (I think) you are better off being wrong-side, but that depends on lots of other things.

As a centre-half I occasionally played as a holding midfielder.  Sometimes I’d have a midfield opponent who wanted to play in the gap between me and my fellow CBs.  If we we going long from our keeper, I would happily go wrong-side of him, reckoning that if a opponent header came back near me, it wasn’t gonna get to the player I’m meant to be marking, and I could move into a bit of space with the ball.  Had I marked goal-side, my opponent would get to the ball first….and I’d also be right on top of my fellow defenders.

So, swings and roundabouts and very dependent on other things.

Lots of stuff about CBs splitting wide, but unless you’re really good at it (Man City / Liverpool), all you do is negate the ability to get your full-backs on the ball.  Lots of play I see like a rubber band or several linked together, sometimes you can stretch it to effect, other times doing that affects another rubber band.

Centre backs being wrong side in your first paragraph means those you are wrong sided of are offside.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Lets hope so. 

I cant' say I've watched too much of Barnsley this season, I know they're doing poorly but no idea why. 

Do they still attempt to press high & replicate the style of play they had under Ismael or has it gone another way?

Obviously losing Dike was massive for them.

Plus Mowatt, Ismael and off the pitch Murphy arguably.

That's a side who have dropped down fast- in early June, they had reached the playoffs and had financial space to push on- Ismael, Murphy, Mowatt- and Marcondes linked on a free.

Fast forward to now and all gone- in a relegation scrap. Mind you if we lose tomorrow we might be as well!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I do think we need to improve in it. Not to excess but crisper, more compact- yes avoiding numerical overloads in central areas when applicable.

When we can finally field and particularly after a run together, James, Williams and Massengo as a central 3 I expect us to improve a) In possession both in terms of accuracy and absolute terms b) Become more compact and c) Perhaps a bit more bite. Certainly not the whole answer but will help.

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Centre backs being wrong side in your first paragraph means those you are wrong sided of are offside.

I’m on about James and Massengo, not the CBs. We’re you referring to the CBs, if so, then strikers offside.  I’m more worried about their midfielders bearing down on our CBs, as their strikers get their arses back onside

[Sleepy1968]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Weimann and O’Dowda (you won’t like this) sometimes (not always) press on their own and just get played around.  They never quite get there.  Some of that is because we are too stretched as a team, but not always.

When you mentioned COD 'getting there' (or not) this is the question my mind came up with:

If, every second, COD covers half the the remaining distance to his target player, how long does it take him to get there? And "not as long as it does at the moment" isn't the correct answer.

[firstdivision]

21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Correct.  The trend is downwards too.  Over the first 6-8 games most of our stats were hovering around mid-table, a few just below….shots / goals conceded top hakf (believe it or not).  But over the last 6 games we’ve slumped right down.

To be fair, Dave, we’ve only needed our eyes to see that.  

[chinapig]

12 hours ago, Sleepy1968 said:

When you mentioned COD 'getting there' (or not) this is the question my mind came up with:

If, every second, COD covers half the the remaining distance to his target player, how long does it take him to get there? And "not as long as it does at the moment" isn't the correct answer.

Xeno's (or Zeno's if you prefer) paradox means he will never get there. Which of course he never does anyway.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, firstdivision said:

To be fair, Dave, we’ve only needed our eyes to see that.  

Absolutely, but you’ll see a fair few with agendas coming up with all manner of crap.

[And Its Smith]

53% success rate with our passing today. Truly embarrassing 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Today was all about the win. This will hopefully and at home especially breed some confidence- we've been alright away from home.

However the passing absolutely needs work, both in terms of possession in itself, the success rate of it, and then the ability to rest in possession.

Williams, James and Massengo as a 3- lay it our centrally as you like- should help with possession and also with the regaining of possession. 

[wendyredredrobin]

Most of the time it's not passing, it's hoofing the ball up the pitch to Martin & Wells, neither of which look like they even want to win it most of the time and then the ball comes back again.

More like what you expect to see in L1 to be honest.

It worked against Barnsley, who were quite poor, but it won't work against most of the teams in this league unless you have a 6ft 3 inch plus striker who is prepared to push defenders around a bit.

[Numero Uno]

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Today was all about the win. This will hopefully and at home especially breed some confidence- we've been alright away from home.

However the passing absolutely needs work, both in terms of possession in itself, the success rate of it, and then the ability to rest in possession.

Williams, James and Massengo as a 3- lay it our centrally as you like- should help with possession and also with the regaining of possession. 

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

[Johnny Musicworks]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

What, on his performance yesterday? If so the people picking that would have been off their heads on hallucinogenic drugs which, to be fair, is about the only thing that would have made that game bearable it was so low on quality. Did you see the game?

[Johnny Musicworks]

18 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What, on his performance yesterday? If so the people picking that would have been off their heads on hallucinogenic drugs which, to be fair, is about the only thing that would have made that game bearable it was so low on quality. Did you see the game?

Yes and he wouldn’t have made Team of the Week for me but he did seem to make most of the tackles in midfield, albeit a very lightweight midfield that was largely overwhelmed defensively. I would like to see Han make more tackles  but he seems to lack the awareness defensively and always has to chase to retrieve rather than be in position to face up to players coming through. He is good at nicking the ball off players but could do a few more Tanner-type tackles with his strength. With Williams and King out the onus is on James defensively and I thought he did okay but nothing more than that.

[And Its Smith]

47 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

That is laughable. Less than half of his passes went to a red shirted player. 

[HappyClapper]

Can anyone explain how James is one of the best midfielders in the championship yesterday? Good player but …..

Answers on a postcard please

[Waconda]

may come as news to many but ........

 

Passing is not one of our priorities right now. Missing the midfield out all together is the order of the day.

[redysteadygo]

7 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

may come as news to many but ........

 

Passing is not one of our priorities right now. Missing the midfield out all together is the order of the day.

Especially when no one is showing.

[Waconda]

Just now, redysteadygo said:

Especially when no one is showing.

Pre determined game plan. "take a touch and knock it".

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, HappyClapper said:

Can anyone explain how James is one of the best midfielders in the championship yesterday? Good player but …..

Answers on a postcard please

It is baffling. It’s stats driven (and I’m not a huge stats fan in the main) but I fail to see what stats James produced yesterday to get him in.  His passing was around 50% accuracy, he lost more headers than he won, he made a few tackles but not many.  He didn’t carry the ball. He allegedly created two chances but I cannot remember them unless they might mean crossing in a corner that for once missed the first defender.  Maybe it’s an error!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

Think all 3 played as individuals yesterday.  Think he’s been off it against Bournemouth and West Brom, thought he was decent enough v Forest.  Really need to find a pairing / combo / three that works.

1 hour ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

It is baffling. It’s stats driven (and I’m not a huge stats fan in the main) but I fail to see what stats James produced yesterday to get him in.  His passing was around 50% accuracy, he lost more headers than he won, he made a few tackles but not many.  He didn’t carry the ball. He allegedly created two chances but I cannot remember them unless they might mean crossing in a corner that for once missed the first defender.  Maybe it’s an error!

Ta, saved me a post.  He had a shot saved….1st half, but I was shocked too.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think all 3 played as individuals yesterday.  Think he’s been off it against Bournemouth and West Brom, thought he was decent enough v Forest.  Really need to find a pairing / combo / three that works.

Ta, saved me a post.  He had a shot saved….1st half, but I was shocked too.

Our current style of play and tactics don't suit him.

Rarely receives the ball in space with any time.

High amount of possession turn overs which leads to him having to chase "shadows".

Needs to be in a passing/possession type team to excel - IMO.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Our current style of play and tactics don't suit him.

Rarely receives the ball in space with any time.

High amount of possession turn overs which leads to him having to chase "shadows".

Needs to be in a passing/possession type team to excel - IMO.

We had a much better mix of play earlier this season.  It’s gone to pot in recent weeks.

[Waconda]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We had a much better mix of play earlier this season.  It’s gone to pot in recent weeks.

This.

[Waconda]

43 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

The one thing our midfielders should be able to do is control and pass the ball. It is not just down to players being good at it though, needs work on the training ground.

James has the quality needed, Massengo technically excellent, not got the range or consistency of passing as James but he should manage the basics of keeping possession in a team set up that is built to pass the ball.

Bakinson one of our most technically gifted players. Can take it in tight spaces. As long as he isn't careless, which I don't think he was once yesterday, then a passing game suits him.

Even King, he hasn't been great, but you don't play for Leicester for years without being able to control and pass the ball!

We have very good technically gifted defenders. What left back has a better touch than Dasilva at this level. Tanner is a classy player too. Full backs don't get forward much because of how we play. Keep the ball more and they then will, and we will see more of what they can do.

Atkinson a ball playing centre back at the wrong club it seems as he almost never brings it out! Kalas capable of it too. 

Maybe ahead of the midfield is not perfect. But Wells played in a QPR team that passed the ball well and was top championship scorer so I doubt he'd mind it if we passed the ball instead of going long all the time!

I actually think our system against there's yesterday made it tough as it was so scrappy. And it being scrappy seemed to suit us more. As soon as it was more open that's when they took over.

We had the ball in good areas numerous times. I think there was a lack of quality in the forward areas yesterday except for the end of the first half. A number of promising positions wasted.

I am very much in the "players to fit the system camp" but why, if claimed we are stuck with an uncoachable, deadwood rabble are we not at least trying to play with a system that suits their strengths ? We have some technically decent players currently struggling to cope in a very direct style.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

Still think that's our best 3, overall- certainly individually. James doesn't go to a poor player overnight, looked good early on and showed what he could do in his loan at Coventry from Christmas onwards.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Still think that's our best 3, overall- certainly individually. James doesn't go to a poor player overnight, looked good early on and showed what he could do in his loan at Coventry from Christmas onwards.

I don’t disagree but yesterday he was our weakest midfield player. He looked like he had won a fan’s competition at times. Hopefully he’ll get back to what he can do on Tuesday. We still lack leaders in this squad, something I was hoping James might be, and that is something Nige really must address.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t disagree but yesterday he was our weakest midfield player. He looked like he had won a fan’s competition at times. Hopefully he’ll get back to what he can do on Tuesday. We still lack leaders in this squad, something I was hoping James might be, and that is something Nige really must address.

Yeah yesterday he wasn't great- can't disagree, although one statistical metric seemed to have him in the team of the week- lack of good CM performances?

King and James as 1st team regulars could provide leadership maybe- although King isn't really at this stage of his career a 1st team regular. Leaders wise, seems the personnel change- talented, hit and miss, poor whatever- but the leadership issue rolles on.