NP not at all happy with the officiating

[maxjak]

19 hours ago, Denbury Red said:

Just watched on EFL goals with Colin Murray - it wasn’t just offside - it was clearly offside. Another poor decision by officials who are supposed to be professionals!!

Poor poor yet again!!

VAR must be introduced in the    Championship?  Otherwise it is just elitism?.............I would happy to man the video screens, I would most definitely be a better judge than some of the myopic twits currently watching the screens in their comfy bunkers? Ha!

[Galley is our king]

16 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Soft penalty?   Have you ever been punched solidly in yer Puss?.................it was 100 % A penalty.    Bents got it wrong, unfortunately, if it was the other way round, we would crying out for a spot kick? 

Yes, but obviously it would be turned down!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Didn't seem it from multiple replays, but wasnt there, would need a side on view 

BentsPunched punched the defender in the head, deffo penalty 

We've as fans got a massive victim complex about refs at the mo. 

Take responsibility for our own actions rather than keeping blaming others, is just a thought. 

We certainly shouldn't be putting our woes down to officiating but one penalty in 18 and a half months in the League- indeed you can break it down a little further to a) No penalty to us at Ashton Gate since October 31st 2020 or indeed that stat about the least penalties awarded in the top 31 European Leagues between the start of 2018/19 to now is quite notable.

9 against too...that's just this season! Above the average, yes we have one of the worst defences certainly, yes we do concede the most or one of the most chances but on the flipside our attacking play has improved but return to Point 1.

OTOH, Justin Peach- 2nd Tier Pod- thinks Bentley should have been sent off (serious foul play in his words) so who knows!

I digress, watched the penalty just now several times on slow mo and pausing and Bartley clearly headed the ball before the fair attempt to win it by Bentley- bit harsh to award a pen?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for Old Mrs. Doubtfire at West Brom, there was nothing much wrong with the pitch, yes the rugby lines aside- we've always had a pretty good pitch in my time and more so given it is partially artificial now?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[BCFCGav]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

Soft penalty?   Have you ever been punched solidly in yer Puss?.................it was 100 % A penalty.    Bents got it wrong, unfortunately, if it was the other way round, we would crying out for a spot kick? 

Ok the angle I saw of it wasn't the best. On the other hand, I don't think we get a penalty for it. How we finish comfortably bottom for penalties awarded in a list of over 600 teams baffles me. The funny thing is, even by this shocking stat of us being 'due' a penalty every 1834 minutes... that milestone passed 3 weeks ago. EFL?!?

https://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2021/wp364/en/

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, BCFCGav said:

Ok the angle I saw of it wasn't the best. On the other hand, I don't think we get a penalty for it. How we finish comfortably bottom for penalties awarded in a list of over 600 teams baffles me. The funny thing is, even by this shocking stat of us being 'due' a penalty every 1834 minutes... that milestone passed 3 weeks ago. EFL?!?

https://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2021/wp364/en/

1 in 18 months in the League, maybe slightly above 18 (that's calendar months not football calendar months)- dread to think how that equates in minutes!

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

0.23 per match...if extrapolated to this season.

39 x 0.23- 9 against and one for...assume a 2:1 split perhaps given League position, 3-6 probably would be a more averaged reading from a very quick extrapolation- ie 3 for, 6 against.

[BCFCGav]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

1 in 18 months in the League, maybe slightly above 18 (that's calendar months not football calendar months)- dread to think how that equates in minutes!

It's a stunning statistic, it really is. Would love City to quiz the EFL on it. Add to that the West Brom's offside goal on Saturday and the refereeing in this league really does seems to beat us down. Tossers the lot of them. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a very quick look- Based on November 1st to present and assuming a 90 minute average, in the League from November 1st 2020 to present, we have been awarded 1 per 6,840 minutes! (Not analysing stoppage time, simply the full 90 averaged)- or 1 in 76 games.

Penalties do seem a bit random in general, Fulham only awarded 5 this season IIRC despite their general creativity and dominance but something is badly wrong with us. I say only, it's a fair amount but for their dominance perhaps you'd expect a couple more.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[GrahamC]

Said it before, this “it all evens itself out” stuff is just bollocks.

Neither of our shouts for a penalty on Saturday were in the highlights so can’t comment on them again but no one will convince me that with 4 more given against us than any other Championship team & the lowest number awarded in our favour of all 92, we aren’t being treated differently.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Derby and Stoke are probably better comparisons to my early Fulham post, what with League position and relative XG...

Derby- Awarded 3.

Stoke- Awarded 5 at least.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Said it before, this “it all evens itself out” stuff is just bollocks.

Neither of our shouts for a penalty on Saturday were in the highlights so can’t comment on them again but no one will convince me that with 4 more given against us than any other Championship team & the lowest number awarded in our favour of all 92, we aren’t being treated differently.

Murray and his mate claiming Semenyo dived at Preston in post match analysis probably won't/didn't help our cause, although you'd hope that has no bearing on officials and this significantly predates that.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Said it before, this “it all evens itself out” stuff is just bollocks.

Neither of our shouts for a penalty on Saturday were in the highlights so can’t comment on them again but no one will convince me that with 4 more given against us than any other Championship team & the lowest number awarded in our favour of all 92, we aren’t being treated differently.

I wonder why they weren't in the highlights- watched Scott v Forest just now- penalty or probably could have been. QPR game highlights despite being 9-10 mins didn't show our one denied there either.

Neither was the potential penalty at Fulham! I remember one but cannot be bothered to watch back through the games to try and pinpoint.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

02:17-02:28.

Millwall away in September- watched these back. We know their penalty, Atkinson on Afobe was totally borderline in terms of in or outside the box, but should we have got one ourselves at 0-0?

Watched it a few times and am unsure- either good defending or a pen. Not a clear pen by any stretch but I wonder.

Had a quick look at our loss at Coventry too- the O'Dowda denial at 0-0, borderline in or outside the box- one of those?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[RedM]

59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As for Old Mrs. Doubtfire at West Brom, there was nothing much wrong with the pitch, yes the rugby lines aside- we've always had a pretty good pitch in my time and more so given it is partially artificial now?

I don't know what he was on about either. I was at the rugby the evening before and at the end it didn't even look like rugby had been played on it then! If it wasn't for the markings you would never know. It was very slippery (through being watered) I thought as a few players from both sides lost their footing, especially in the first half. But as per the rules the pitch was watered at both ends equally, so basically he's just a whinging idiot after some attention to deflect from his poor performing side

[Midred]

9 minutes ago, RedM said:

I don't know what he was on about either. I was at the rugby the evening before and at the end it didn't even look like rugby had been played on it then! If it wasn't for the markings you would never know. It was very slippery (through being watered) I thought as a few players from both sides lost their footing, especially in the first half. But as per the rules the pitch was watered at both ends equally, so basically he's just a whinging idiot after some attention to deflect from his poor performing side

Are pitches "over watered" these days? Even allowing for weather conditions on the days leading up to the match there seems to be alot more sliding and slipping over recently.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Barnsley awarded 2, Peterborough awarded 5 and Reading awarded 3.

Okay they'll have their attacking moments and games but these are not dominant sides like Fulham or Bournemouth say, who will naturally gain a lot of pressure and penalties can come with that- 3 to Derby as well (already mentioned).

Edited March 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[BCFCGav]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Said it before, this “it all evens itself out” stuff is just bollocks.

Neither of our shouts for a penalty on Saturday were in the highlights so can’t comment on them again but no one will convince me that with 4 more given against us than any other Championship team & the lowest number awarded in our favour of all 92, we aren’t being treated differently.

Not the lowest of all 92, the lowest of all 600 in Europe’s top 30 leagues. I mean I know I keep banging that drum but… how?

[Guest]

I wanna know when (if) we do get one, whose gonna be brave enough to take it?? 

 

I mean, I appreciate that the way things are going, there's a good chance this person isn't even born yet,  but still worth considering....

[Rich]

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Thanks for responding. 

Your post though exactly demonstrates the victim mentality we're getting into in this

We've had no penalties, referees must be awful as a result to paraphrase. 

We as fans seem keen to obsess over this as an unjust travesty, yet historicly I cant ever remember us having loads and loads of penalties anyway. 

I just don't think it has been our way tbh. 

Makes it much easier to manage then getting out of shape about how hard dome to we are, we define our own destiny 

You probably won't agree with this but, I believe there are teams that win penalties because of the way they play and the constant pressure they put on officials by their players coaches and fans. Fergie time is an example of getting a slight advantage from officials. I would also suggest a club not too far from us having a claim mentality, especially the touchline area close to their dug outs.

As many people have alluded to over the years, we are just too nice a club and have failed against so many teams and their use of the dark arts, some call it naivety others being too honest. You can watch a match and after about three shouts for a penalty or a free kick you can bet your sweet betty that one is awarded by the ref. Especially when the crowd are also shouting for every decision to go their way.  I personally think it's much easier for a ref to award a penalty against us, than one for us because of the pressure/reaction of the players, management and supporters of the opposition. 

So, I agree with you that it's just not been our way, in one respect but, do think we make it too easy for officials to avoid giving them to us.

[NOTBLUE]

Well it’s only my opinion,but I think we, as a crowd,shout as loud as any other crowd for penalties.Several times this season we been absolutely baying for blood,the QPR particularly sticks out.I personally don’t care if we don’t get another one this season,I’d much rather get some when we’ve got something to play for,surely our luck has got to change.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Thanks for responding. 

Your post though exactly demonstrates the victim mentality we're getting into in this

We've had no penalties, referees must be awful as a result to paraphrase. 

We as fans seem keen to obsess over this as an unjust travesty, yet historicly I cant ever remember us having loads and loads of penalties anyway. 

I just don't think it has been our way tbh. 

Makes it much easier to manage then getting out of shape about how hard dome to we are, we define our own destiny 

1 in 18 months vs the highest conceded this season is fairly remarkable whichever way you slice and dice it but I respect the view- definitely we have never had masses of penalties down the years in my time...certainly seen unhappy fans of other clubs in this respect too- Birmingham, Derby, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke in the last few seasons all spring to mind. Some of those lower in the League, with either porous defences, a lack of creativity (chances and as a team not necessarily individually speaking) have some notable differences- otoh it's by no means the sole reason for our woes.

2 hours ago, Rich said:

You probably won't agree with this but, I believe there are teams that win penalties because of the way they play and the constant pressure they put on officials by their players coaches and fans. Fergie time is an example of getting a slight advantage from officials. I would also suggest a club not too far from us having a claim mentality, especially the touchline area close to their dug outs.

As many people have alluded to over the years, we are just too nice a club and have failed against so many teams and their use of the dark arts, some call it naivety others being too honest. You can watch a match and after about three shouts for a penalty or a free kick you can bet your sweet betty that one is awarded by the ref. Especially when the crowd are also shouting for every decision to go their way.  I personally think it's much easier for a ref to award a penalty against us, than one for us because of the pressure/reaction of the players, management and supporters of the opposition. 

So, I agree with you that it's just not been our way, in one respect but, do think we make it too easy for officials to avoid giving them to us.

Maybe although we just can't win it seems- see Murray labelling Semenyo's potential penalties at Preston as a dive! How many dives get fallen for vs us.

We do have shouted for some calls often of late- as fans, maybe players and management not so much...I agree with parts of what you say but when a national TV presenter in post match analysis labels good shouts such as Semenyo at Preston as dives, vs a side with one or two divers then we are swimming against the tide somewhat, no? Do you think Murray was right or wrong when he said Semenyo dived at Preston- our penalty vs Swansea in October 2020- yes only our third in 85 League games that- was labelled 'soft' by a Times match report. Can this stuff play on the mind of refs?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On the big chance thing, okay I'm using a pretty rudimentary source for this kinda thing but here goes nothing...

We as per SofaScore- rudimentary I know, have had 68 big chances this season in the League- one penalty.

Decided to tot it up quickly and it is 85 conceded- 9 penalties against.

I treat those stats or how they are measured on there with some scepticism but it does seem a lot easier to award against than for in any event for some reason.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

A look at last season and this together...in the League only

*=Ongoing season

2020/21

For- 2

Against- 7

2021/22*

For- 1

Against- 9

Yes absorbing a lot of pressure plays its part no doubt. From November 1st 2020 to present though, bear in mind that the 2 pens came before November in 2020/21, it's a cumulative total of 1-15 (Woodrow got one deep into stoppage time at Barnsley October 2020- needless O'Dowda tackle). One pen conceded every 5-5.5 games in 2 seasons is fairly remarkable really!

Two ways to measure...

a) From Day 1 of the 2020/21 season to present. 16 in 85 awarded against, 3 for.

Or

b) From Huddersfield away November 2020 to present...

1 for, 15 against, 76 games.- a shade < 1 per 5 games!

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[italian dave]

On 20/03/2022 at 13:47, Robbored said:

Fans of every club whinge and moan about the refereeing in every league. Hell…I can remember playing 40+years ago and we’d all criticise the ref after the game especially if we’d lost - it’s no different these days.

The problem I have is when managers are fined for slagging off the officials.Nige was fined £5k recently after saying the officials weren’t fit to referee park football…….……..

The PGMOL are way too precious and see themselves as above everything else in football.

 

When it comes to managers, I think it's about respect for a fellow professional and for the profession that you earn a good living from. 

It's not a good example, and it sets up the relationship as adversarial, which it shouldn't be.

I know that's a very dispassionate view, and hard to sustain as a fan the day after your teams been robbed by yet another shite decision! But that's why - and in the cold light of day it's quite reasonable, I think.

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, italian dave said:

When it comes to managers, I think it's about respect for a fellow professional and for the profession that you earn a good living from. 

It's not a good example, and it sets up the relationship as adversarial, which it shouldn't be.

I know that's a very dispassionate view, and hard to sustain as a fan the day after your teams been robbed by yet another shite decision! But that's why - and in the cold light of day it's quite reasonable, I think.

See that from some angle, but fine away but bollocks to them...the officials that is. I still remember in 2018/19 3 Weimann goals incorrectly disallowed for offside over the season and some of the decisions in that run in- a Villa penalty that never was same game as the dodgily disallowed offside goal and the Semenyo red v Derby! Perhaps it was a red card but did Huddlestone not do similar? 

OTOH Rotherham had 2 red cards at AG which perhaps gave us some luck and we got a last minute winner there, the questionable last minute pen v QPR albeit Pisano goal same game disallowed also dubious and Hull away on the last day kinda evened out. OTOH Tettey avoided a 2nd yellow on 2, perhaps three occasions- the 2nd when we were 2-1 up with the crowd up for it under the lights and was substituted in the nick of time but that season was more a case of at least some going for us. This season I can think of the Palmer goal v Fulham and?? Even that had shades of Tettey in 2018 when Chalobah could have been awarded a second yellow, wasn't and was substituted at HT! Granted for performance level too but still....

Fulham reporter thought as much too.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

See that from some angle, but fine away but bollocks to them...the refs that is. I still remember in 2018/19 3 Weimann goals incorrectly disallowed for offside over thye season and soem of the decisions in that run in- a Villa penalty that never was same game as the dodgily disallowed offside goal and the Semenyo red v Derby!

Of course. And, believe me, I've been there screaming abuse as much as the rest of us at the officials every time!!

And I get that, for managers, it can cost them a lot more than a spoiled afternoon.

But you can't allow professionals within the game free rein to engage in similar! There has to be accountability, of course, and I assume that there is a serious point to the assessments of officials that take place - we probably don't see a tenth of what happens there. And, again, it's also about respect for a fellow professional. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-referees-west-brom-6842278?int_source=nba

Hackett, former top ref basically has said he agrees- Livermore was offside.

[Mr Popodopolous]

46 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Of course. And, believe me, I've been there screaming abuse as much as the rest of us at the officials every time!!

And I get that, for managers, it can cost them a lot more than a spoiled afternoon.

But you can't allow professionals within the game free rein to engage in similar! There has to be accountability, of course, and I assume that there is a serious point to the assessments of officials that take place - we probably don't see a tenth of what happens there. And, again, it's also about respect for a fellow professional. 

Fair points, especially the first 2 paragraphs.

Accountability? What's that- Andy Davies what kind of accountability was there for him in December, that game was truly atrocious and his record vs us is a bit of an eye opener too...2 pens at Preston, 1 at QPR in the Cup both in 2019 and one at AG in 2021 also v QPR- to say nothing off the handball in the buildup to their winner, Preston's other goal having a player being climbed on, think we had 2 disallowed in that one as well but tbh they were correct I expect- there was also for balance I believe a fairly uncontroversial afternoon at Millwall in 2019/20, not long before lockdown!

Respect for professionals is fine yes, and I am not a fan of VAR but the standard at this level is just shocking. Don't think it's some shadowy cabal cackling and laughing, plotting to do us down, just the standard is appalling.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Robbored]

48 minutes ago, italian dave said:

When it comes to managers, I think it's about respect for a fellow professional and for the profession that you earn a good living from. 

I know that's a very dispassionate view, and hard to sustain as a fan the day after your teams been robbed by yet another shite decision! But that's why - and in the cold light of day it's quite reasonable, I think.

As a professional referees they should get more of their decisions right and when they make poor errors that can and often does effect the result of the match. That in turn could cost the manager his job and it’s no surprise to see managers criticising the officials especially when there’s so much at stake.

The reaction clubs get is a letter of apology from the PGMOL - that’s poor and nowhere near enough for losing 1 or 3 points. Under LJ in one season he had 5 letters of apology from the PGMOL…….how many points were they worth?

Personally I think Nige is right when he says the quality of officials need to improve.