Rob Atkinson - championship player of the month

[MC RISK77]

I am not sure if this is the official player of the month awards as pretty sure EFL run that.

However according to Whoscored.com, Rob is their player of the month and him and Martin are included in championship team of the month.

 

https://www.skysports.com/share/12605178

[Major Isewater]

It’s all good .

[Kid in the Riot]

He's our highest performing player of the season, according to Whoscored.com

It's going to be interesting to see if he can really kick-on next season, and remain injury-free. Could be the next one to be worth rather a lot of money. 

[ExiledAjax]

One thing that whoscored do really well is their player ratings. They've managed to create a system that seems to eradicate bias for big clubs, and awards as much credit to defenders as goalies as to strikers and midfielders. 

Their team of the season is much more interesting and diverse than the official EFL one.

[RUSSEL85]

He kicks on next season he’s a £20m player.

[Kid in the Riot]

17 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

One thing that whoscored do really well is their player ratings. They've managed to create a system that seems to eradicate bias for big clubs, and awards as much credit to defenders as goalies as to strikers and midfielders. 

Their team of the season is much more interesting and diverse than the official EFL one.

Yes, agreed. Their top 5 European leagues team of the season has two Rennes players in it, which seems entirely deserved considering the incredible season they've had. You can be sure those players would be nowhere near a pundit's team of the season. 

[ExiledAjax]

12 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, agreed. Their top 5 European leagues team of the season has two Rennes players in it, which seems entirely deserved considering the incredible season they've had. You can be sure those players would be nowhere near a pundit's team of the season. 

Yep, and their Champ team of the season so far (will be updated after Saturday) includes Helik. Would any pundit put a defender from a relegated team in their team of the season? Absolutely not, but I thought he was excellent against us, and he's clearly played well in other matches. 

Plus their League 2 team doesn't have a single gas player, so they're clearly the best authority to trust.

Edit. Just on Helik - is there any noise of him leaving? Without wanting to turn this into a transfer thread I'd be very happy with him signing should we lose one of our CBs.

Edited May 4, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Kid in the Riot]

Haven't seen anything, but he's only got a year left on his contract. So, I'd say he's pretty "available" if a Championship team did want him. 

[spudski]

31 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yep, and their Champ team of the season so far (will be updated after Saturday) includes Helik. Would any pundit put a defender from a relegated team in their team of the season? Absolutely not, but I thought he was excellent against us, and he's clearly played well in other matches. 

Plus their League 2 team doesn't have a single gas player, so they're clearly the best authority to trust.

Edit. Just on Helik - is there any noise of him leaving? Without wanting to turn this into a transfer thread I'd be very happy with him signing should we lose one of our CBs.

Helik is a good CB imo. I'd have him over Kalas. He's been injured for a while...which coincided with Barnsley losing more games in the past month. 

He'll get a lot of interest from Championship sides imo.

You are right about Whoscored. My go to stat site.

[Harry]

Whilst I have been happy with Atkinson’s contribution over the last few games, I do think these stats can be taken out of context. 
Lloyd Kelly is well down the list. But I’d challenge anyone to convince me that Rob Atkinson is a better defender than Lloyd Kelly. 
Thing is, in a team that defends as much as we do, the defenders are naturally going to post higher scores. The stats are based on things such as blocks, interceptions, clearances, fouls but also goals, assists, dribbles etc. 

As Atkinson had managed to score 1 more goal that Kelly and the fact that Atkinson is encouraged to dribble the ball out of defence, this gives him more ‘positive’ events which accrue him points. 
Atkinson will also find himself defending more than Kelly, so his tackles per game are 1.8 vs 0.7, interceptions are 1.7 vs 1.0, blocks 0.7 vs 0.5 and so on. 
 

In short, being asked to defend more will naturally lead to more ‘defensive actions’ which will accrue points. 
 

Think of goalkeepers. You can have the best keeper in the world, but if you have a great team that prevents shots and crosses then your keeper won’t register any actions, whilst if you pummel someone 5-0 and had 20 shots on target, their keeper will have a high score due to the amount of saves he made. 
 

So yes, Atkinson has been decent. But he’s a long way from being one of the top 10 or even top 20 defenders in this league. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Harry

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Whilst I have been happy with Atkinson’s contribution over the last few games, I do think these stats can be taken out of context. 
Lloyd Kelly is well down the list. But I’d challenge anyone to convince me that Rob Atkinson is a better defender than Lloyd Kelly. 
Thing is, in a team that defends as much as we do, the defenders are naturally going to post higher scores. The stats are based on things such as blocks, interceptions, clearances, fouls but also goals, assists, dribbles etc. 

As Atkinson had managed to score 1 more goal that Kelly and the fact that Atkinson is encouraged to dribble the ball out of defence, this gives him more ‘positive’ events which accrue him points. 
Atkinson will also find himself defending more than Kelly, so his tackles per game are 1.8 vs 0.7, interceptions are 1.7 vs 1.0, blocks 0.7 vs 0.5 and so on. 
 

In short, being asked to defend more will naturally lead to more ‘defensive actions’ which will accrue points. 
 

Think of goalkeepers. You can have the best keeper in the world, but if you have a great team that prevents shots and crosses then your keeper won’t register any actions, whilst if you pummel someone 5-0 and had 20 shots on target, their keeper will have a high score due to the amount of saves he made. 
 

So yes, Atkinson had been decent. But he’s a long way from being one of the top 10 or even top 20 defenders in this league. 

This seems to ignore Atkinson’s injury problems, and his debilitating illness which he has spoken about in detail.  Thankfully that is behind him now, and we are seen the best of him which, as the stats show, is very good indeed.

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

Whilst I have been happy with Atkinson’s contribution over the last few games, I do think these stats can be taken out of context. 
Lloyd Kelly is well down the list. But I’d challenge anyone to convince me that Rob Atkinson is a better defender than Lloyd Kelly. 
Thing is, in a team that defends as much as we do, the defenders are naturally going to post higher scores. The stats are based on things such as blocks, interceptions, clearances, fouls but also goals, assists, dribbles etc. 

As Atkinson had managed to score 1 more goal that Kelly and the fact that Atkinson is encouraged to dribble the ball out of defence, this gives him more ‘positive’ events which accrue him points. 
Atkinson will also find himself defending more than Kelly, so his tackles per game are 1.8 vs 0.7, interceptions are 1.7 vs 1.0, blocks 0.7 vs 0.5 and so on. 
 

In short, being asked to defend more will naturally lead to more ‘defensive actions’ which will accrue points. 
 

Think of goalkeepers. You can have the best keeper in the world, but if you have a great team that prevents shots and crosses then your keeper won’t register any actions, whilst if you pummel someone 5-0 and had 20 shots on target, their keeper will have a high score due to the amount of saves he made. 
 

So yes, Atkinson has been decent. But he’s a long way from being one of the top 10 or even top 20 defenders in this league. 

I think your point is a bit of a straw man. WhoScored are simply rating performance for 1 month against, as others have said, measures that are not biased towards bigger clubs. Otherwise the team of the month might just as well comprise just Fulham and Bournemouth players.

They are not saying he is a better player than Kelly overall and neither is anybody else. But because Kelly is a better player it does not follow that he has performed better in a given period.

[ExiledAjax]

45 minutes ago, spudski said:

Helik is a good CB imo. I'd have him over Kalas. He's been injured for a while...which coincided with Barnsley losing more games in the past month. 

He'll get a lot of interest from Championship sides imo.

You are right about Whoscored. My go to stat site.

I just wish that whoscored would refresh their UI. It's a great site but it's ugly and very clunky.

On Helik, agree he's a top prospect. But he's not exactly a secret and I'm sure there are going to be plenty of Champ clubs willing to pay more than us. Would be amazed if he's turning out for City in September. 

[Coxy27]

Weimann seems harshly rated.

For a team in our league position - his return this season in terms of goals and assists is excellent.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

I think your point is a bit of a straw man. WhoScored are simply rating performance for 1 month against, as others have said, measures that are not biased towards bigger clubs. Otherwise the team of the month might just as well comprise just Fulham and Bournemouth players.

They are not saying he is a better player than Kelly overall and neither is anybody else. But because Kelly is a better player it does not follow that he has performed better in a given period.

Sorry, forgot to say, the stats I used above are for the whole season. So Atkinson is rated higher than Kelly across 30+ games. 
Which as I’m sure you’ll agree, isn’t really a true reflection. 

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Sorry, forgot to say, the stats I used above are for the whole season. So Atkinson is rated higher than Kelly across 30+ games. 
Which as I’m sure you’ll agree, isn’t really a true reflection. 

I see, point taken.

Having seen Kelly a number of times this season he has not been quite as good as I expected.

There have been games when he has looked a complete defender and others when he has been too gung ho and not shown the composure I would expect.

I think he is still some way from achieving his potential. Perhaps he needs to move to a better team to do that and it will be interesting to see if anybody bids for him.

I'm not going to suggest Atkinson is a better player but I do see great potential. When we signed him Nigel said he would become a Premier League player so I'm looking forward to see how he develops.

 

[supercidered]

20 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I see, point taken.

Having seen Kelly a number of times this season he has not been quite as good as I expected.

There have been games when he has looked a complete defender and others when he has been too gung ho and not shown the composure I would expect.

I think he is still some way from achieving his potential. Perhaps he needs to move to a better team to do that and it will be interesting to see if anybody bids for him.

I'm not going to suggest Atkinson is a better player but I do see great potential. When we signed him Nigel said he would become a Premier League player so I'm looking forward to see how he develops.

 

I'll have to be careful how I word this as it will be tin hat time.

However, I feel whilst Lloyd Kelly is good and may well be destined for better things, I don't think he is as good as he thinks he is. I thought that when he was with us and I've seen him quite a few time since he left. Has he improved that much? I don't think he has. I expected him to really kick on but I don't see a massive improvement and in his mid 20's now.

Rob Atkinson only slightly younger but my feeling is he will go on to achieve higher levels than Kelly. Hopefully with us.

[TV Tom]

4 minutes ago, supercidered said:

I'll have to be careful how I word this as it will be tin hat time.

However, I feel whilst Lloyd Kelly is good and may well be destined for better things, I don't think he is as good as he thinks he is. I thought that when he was with us and I've seen him quite a few time since he left. Has he improved that much? I don't think he has. I expected him to really kick on but I don't see a massive improvement and in his mid 20's now.

Rob Atkinson only slightly younger but my feeling is he will go on to achieve higher levels than Kelly. Hopefully with us.

I doubt very much that he will play higher than Kelly

[spudski]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

Whilst I have been happy with Atkinson’s contribution over the last few games, I do think these stats can be taken out of context. 
Lloyd Kelly is well down the list. But I’d challenge anyone to convince me that Rob Atkinson is a better defender than Lloyd Kelly. 
Thing is, in a team that defends as much as we do, the defenders are naturally going to post higher scores. The stats are based on things such as blocks, interceptions, clearances, fouls but also goals, assists, dribbles etc. 

As Atkinson had managed to score 1 more goal that Kelly and the fact that Atkinson is encouraged to dribble the ball out of defence, this gives him more ‘positive’ events which accrue him points. 
Atkinson will also find himself defending more than Kelly, so his tackles per game are 1.8 vs 0.7, interceptions are 1.7 vs 1.0, blocks 0.7 vs 0.5 and so on. 
 

In short, being asked to defend more will naturally lead to more ‘defensive actions’ which will accrue points. 
 

Think of goalkeepers. You can have the best keeper in the world, but if you have a great team that prevents shots and crosses then your keeper won’t register any actions, whilst if you pummel someone 5-0 and had 20 shots on target, their keeper will have a high score due to the amount of saves he made. 
 

So yes, Atkinson has been decent. But he’s a long way from being one of the top 10 or even top 20 defenders in this league. 

There is also an alternative way of looking at it Harry.

If as you say, we defend more than other teams, then there is more chance of tiring and making mistakes.

If your stats are good in a busy defence, then imo, that's better than being good in a less busy defence. 

Hope that makes sense.

[Port Said Red]

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Haven't seen anything, but he's only got a year left on his contract. So, I'd say he's pretty "available" if a Championship team did want him. 

You're talking about Helik aren't you? You nearly had me rushing to the official site to check on Rob's contract situation then.  

[Harry]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

There is also an alternative way of looking at it Harry.

If as you say, we defend more than other teams, then there is more chance of tiring and making mistakes.

If your stats are good in a busy defence, then imo, that's better than being good in a less busy defence. 

Hope that makes sense.

Hell yeah, of course mate. 
I just liken it a bit to when Kalas was being lauded last season as having the highest number of blocks. Well great. Maybe that’s because we were conceding so many shooting opportunities as a team and therefore more blocks were necessary (remember that most ‘blocked shots’ as a CB will occur inside your own box, so it’s not exactly something we should be proud of, if you know what I mean). 
 

As said though. Atkinson is clearly progressing and has had a decent spell of late, but he’s on top of these charts this last month because of his additional contributions with a couple of goals and a number of progressive forward dribbles. Just on his defensive stats he’s probably still in the mid-upper range, but these stats include attacking events as well. 

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yep, and their Champ team of the season so far (will be updated after Saturday) includes Helik. Would any pundit put a defender from a relegated team in their team of the season? Absolutely not, but I thought he was excellent against us, and he's clearly played well in other matches. 

Plus their League 2 team doesn't have a single gas player, so they're clearly the best authority to trust.

Edit. Just on Helik - is there any noise of him leaving? Without wanting to turn this into a transfer thread I'd be very happy with him signing should we lose one of our CBs.

Me and @redcherryberrywere chatting to each other about Helik on WhatsApp the other night.

I’d gotten into my head that he was OOC this summer and would head back to Europe, but as above he’s actually got a year left.

I’m not 100% convinced about him defensively, think he has missed Sollbauer this season, but maybe haven’t looked at him too closely because I thought he’d be off somewhere very different to Bristol City.  So on @redcherryberry comments I could reflect and say if Klose was a “Sollbauer influence”, then maybe Helik would be a tidy option….fee dependent!

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, Harry said:

Hell yeah, of course mate. 
I just liken it a bit to when Kalas was being lauded last season as having the highest number of blocks. Well great. Maybe that’s because we were conceding so many shooting opportunities as a team and therefore more blocks were necessary (remember that most ‘blocked shots’ as a CB will occur inside your own box, so it’s not exactly something we should be proud of, if you know what I mean). 
 

As said though. Atkinson is clearly progressing and has had a decent spell of late, but he’s on top of these charts this last month because of his additional contributions with a couple of goals and a number of progressive forward dribbles. Just on his defensive stats he’s probably still in the mid-upper range, but these stats include attacking events as well. 

Totally agree with you. Every nuance has to be taken into consideration.

[Kid in the Riot]

31 minutes ago, Harry said:

Hell yeah, of course mate. 
I just liken it a bit to when Kalas was being lauded last season as having the highest number of blocks. Well great. Maybe that’s because we were conceding so many shooting opportunities as a team and therefore more blocks were necessary (remember that most ‘blocked shots’ as a CB will occur inside your own box, so it’s not exactly something we should be proud of, if you know what I mean). 
 

As said though. Atkinson is clearly progressing and has had a decent spell of late, but he’s on top of these charts this last month because of his additional contributions with a couple of goals and a number of progressive forward dribbles. Just on his defensive stats he’s probably still in the mid-upper range, but these stats include attacking events as well. 

I think what's quite impressive about Atkinson's "stats" is that he's our best performer of the season, above three players - WSM - who have been knee deep in goals and assists (among the top 10 attackers in the division) all season. So to be above them suggests his stats are very good. I recall earlier in the season he was leading the division for successful forward dribbles too, with similar stats to Webster at this level. 

That said, it goes without saying that stats should always only form part of an assessment of a player, and clearly a qualitative assessment of him, based on actually watching him play, is essential. 

I'm sure the many PL scouts that have watched us this season would've cast an eye over him, as well as Scott and Antoine. 

[italian dave]

On 04/05/2022 at 13:47, Harry said:

Whilst I have been happy with Atkinson’s contribution over the last few games, I do think these stats can be taken out of context. 
Lloyd Kelly is well down the list. But I’d challenge anyone to convince me that Rob Atkinson is a better defender than Lloyd Kelly. 
Thing is, in a team that defends as much as we do, the defenders are naturally going to post higher scores. The stats are based on things such as blocks, interceptions, clearances, fouls but also goals, assists, dribbles etc. 

As Atkinson had managed to score 1 more goal that Kelly and the fact that Atkinson is encouraged to dribble the ball out of defence, this gives him more ‘positive’ events which accrue him points. 
Atkinson will also find himself defending more than Kelly, so his tackles per game are 1.8 vs 0.7, interceptions are 1.7 vs 1.0, blocks 0.7 vs 0.5 and so on. 
 

In short, being asked to defend more will naturally lead to more ‘defensive actions’ which will accrue points. 
 

Think of goalkeepers. You can have the best keeper in the world, but if you have a great team that prevents shots and crosses then your keeper won’t register any actions, whilst if you pummel someone 5-0 and had 20 shots on target, their keeper will have a high score due to the amount of saves he made. 
 

So yes, Atkinson has been decent. But he’s a long way from being one of the top 10 or even top 20 defenders in this league. 

I’ve often thought that one of the strengths of a good defender - and one of Lloyd Kelly’s strengths - is being able to read a game, being able to keep calm, not fly is and just steer an attacking player away from trouble and into positions they don’t really want to be in. No need necessarily to tackle, to intercept, to clear, to block, certainly not to foul. Often the attacker still keeps the ball, but instead of bearing down on goal they are in a corner and having to pass backwards. 

And I don’t know how that gets measured or recognised on these sort of stats. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And I don’t know how that gets measured or recognised on these sort of stats. 

[Harry]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

I’ve often thought that one of the strengths of a good defender - and one of Lloyd Kelly’s strengths - is being able to read a game, being able to keep calm, not fly is and just steer an attacking player away from trouble and into positions they don’t really want to be in. No need necessarily to tackle, to intercept, to clear, to block, certainly not to foul. Often the attacker still keeps the ball, but instead of bearing down on goal they are in a corner and having to pass backwards. 

And I don’t know how that gets measured or recognised on these sort of stats. 

100% Dave. 
Those are the traits of a superb defender. It’s certainly not all about blocks interceptions and tackles. 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think Who Scored include this in their stats. I may be wrong but I think their defensive stats are derived from blocks, interceptions, tackles, dribbled past, clearances, fouls. 
 

I guess ‘dribbled past’ is essentially a ‘defensive duel’ lost, but I don’t think they have any stats for a defender ‘winning’ a defensive duel. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

I’ve often thought that one of the strengths of a good defender - and one of Lloyd Kelly’s strengths - is being able to read a game, being able to keep calm, not fly is and just steer an attacking player away from trouble and into positions they don’t really want to be in. No need necessarily to tackle, to intercept, to clear, to block, certainly not to foul. Often the attacker still keeps the ball, but instead of bearing down on goal they are in a corner and having to pass backwards. 

And I don’t know how that gets measured or recognised on these sort of stats. 

As Paolo Maldini once said `If I have to make a tackle I`ve made a mistake`

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Harry said:

100% Dave. 
Those are the traits of a superb defender. It’s certainly not all about blocks interceptions and tackles. 

I don’t think Who Scored include this in their stats. I may be wrong but I think their defensive stats are derived from blocks, interceptions, tackles, dribbled past, clearances, fouls. 
 

I guess ‘dribbled past’ is essentially a ‘defensive duel’ lost, but I don’t think they have any stats for a defender ‘winning’ a defensive duel. 

Sorry, my screenshot was from Wyscout.  As you say, I think Whoscored is algorithmic based.

https://www.whoscored.com/Glossary

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

As Paolo Maldini once said `If I have to make a tackle I`ve made a mistake`

Yes, fans love to see defenders flying into tackles but the best defenders rarely need to. How often do you see Virgil Van Dijk go to ground for instance?