Luck ? Change of attitude ? Who cares ?

[1960maaan]

First off, I think we have seen a gradual improvement in the style of play over some months. The last couple of month of last season saw glimpses, the beginning of the season you could see a change of intent. But it's the last two games that have really seemed to click.
I do wonder if it is another lucky accident or a long term plan. Maybe even Conway progressing quickly and allowing us to play a different way. Not only that, but getting more from other player because of it.

While Martin has done a job, we couldn't Press with enough conviction with him leading the line. Conway and Wells allow us to Press higher, to stop good balls coming out of the defence, stopping the easy pass out. Not only that, Massengo has looked at times like a headless Chicken. Not his fault IMO, he has at times been the only one chasing and harassing the opposition. With The two already mentioned, plus Weimann dropping in and a fit Joe Williams or Alex Scott, he has support to back him up, he is not alone in chasing . 

My question would be, why has Wells not been given more minutes before ?
It could be that Nige didn't feel we had the personnel to do the job he needed them to do. Semenyo and Conway have burst onto the scene a little, you never know with young players how it will go. Pearson trusted Martin and Weimann, I think too much, I can only think he thoughtWells style  didn't fit what he was trying to do. I think it was fairly clear there was a partnership forming there, from U21 games. That Cov game really showed what potential was there. 

The next question, was this the plan all along and we just didn't have the players to play this way. When Pearson came in we were a mess, even as he started his rebuild he wouldn't have had Conway and Scott as two mainstays and important pieces of the team. 

Whatever the reason, this is the best I've seen a City team play for some time. There is a style, a focus, a work ethic, a determination and a real threat too. I know it has only really gelled over the last two games, but it shows real promise. We could probably do with 2/3 additions to make the squad deep enough for us to push top 10, but I think with no injuries and if we could manage the work load, the squad is good enough to get close.

Enough of my wittering, another very good team performance, with some very good individual moments. If we can keep this up it could be a very enjoyable season.
 

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

First off, I think we have seen a gradual improvement in the style of play over some months. The last couple of month of last season saw glimpses, the beginning of the season you could see a change of intent. But it's the last two games that have really seemed to click.
I do wonder if it is another lucky accident or a long term plan. Maybe even Conway progressing quickly and allowing us to play a different way. Not only that, but getting more from other player because of it.

Nige and staff have done well to keep him motivated, basically spent a season bench-warming, but I guess its all the daily training and mentoring he's received plus the appearances in the u23s (sometimes with Wells) that have kept him hungry.  Also, a culture where he doesn't just get rewarded for scoring.  Today's goal comes off the back of a goal v Luton, but that only comes because he played well at Wigan.  He didn't get discarded for missing a good chance.  Good selection policy rules!

While Martin has done a job, we couldn't Press with enough conviction with him leading the line. Conway and Wells allow us to Press higher, to stop good balls coming out of the defence, stopping the easy pass out. Not only that, Massengo has looked at times like a headless Chicken. Not his fault IMO, he has at times been the only one chasing and harassing the opposition. With The two already mentioned, plus Weimann dropping in and a fit Joe Williams or Alex Scott, he has support to back him up, he is not alone in chasing .

Our press from their keeper goal-kicks or dead balls was very impressive today, Wells and Conway backed up admirably by Weimann, and either Massengo or Williams as required.  What we then did was win the long ball out, Atkinson especially.  They only breached it a couple of times...and we need to do a bit better in those instances.

My question would be, why has Wells not been given more minutes before ?

Indeed...its a good question for a journo to ask!!

It could be that Nige didn't feel we had the personnel to do the job he needed them to do. Semenyo and Conway have burst onto the scene a little, you never know with young players how it will go. Pearson trusted Martin and Weimann, I think too much, I can only think he thoughtWells style  didn't fit what he was trying to do. I think it was fairly clear there was a partnership forming there, from U21 games. That Cov game really showed what potential was there. 

The next question, was this the plan all along and we just didn't have the players to play this way. When Pearson came in we were a mess, even as he started his rebuild he wouldn't have had Conway and Scott as two mainstays and important pieces of the team.

Sometimes you learn from the errors.  Every pre-season I say the team you start the season with is rarely the one you start October with.  What I'm really happy with is that every game has been build upon the foundation of a single system.  He resisted the option to go to a back 4.  He played Vyner | Naismith | Atkinson v Coventry, and I think they've started to show better understanding of each other's game.  I'd pick them again on Wednesday.  I think its clear he understands cause and effect, but importantly the old saying "madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" is a lazy one.  How do you build cohesion unless you give something a chance?

Whatever the reason, this is the best I've seen a City team play for some time. There is a style, a focus, a work ethic, a determination and a real threat too. I know it has only really gelled over the last two games, but it shows real promise. We could probably do with 2/3 additions to make the squad deep enough for us to push top 10, but I think with no injuries and if we could manage the work load, the squad is good enough to get close.

I love the 'edge' our two youngest players give, they're 'hard', a bit of nastiness in them...they knick yer dinner-money in the playground

Enough of my wittering, another very good team performance, with some very good individual moments. If we can keep this up it could be a very enjoyable season.

Still early days, but encouraging signs...not at perceived full-strength yet!
 

 

[1960maaan]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nige and staff have done well to keep him motivated, basically spent a season bench-warming, but I guess its all the daily training and mentoring he's received plus the appearances in the u23s (sometimes with Wells) that have kept him hungry.  Also, a culture where he doesn't just get rewarded for scoring.  Today's goal comes off the back of a goal v Luton, but that only comes because he played well at Wigan.  He didn't get discarded for missing a good chance.  Good selection policy rules!

He was due a start, but to play him with Wells V Cov was an interesting shout. The games they played together previously may have had an impact on Nige. But they thoroughly deserved to keep their places. He has talked of playing a pressing game, and that's one of the reasons I started this thread. Conway showing he can do that job may have helped the change to what Pearson has been trying to do.

 

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He played Vyner | Naismith | Atkinson v Coventry, and I think they've started to show better understanding of each other's game.  I'd pick them again on Wednesday.  

Not sure I would. Atkinson was feeling his groin early on and pulled up for a minute . Might be sensible to give him a rest and give Klose a full game.

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I love the 'edge' our two youngest players give, they're 'hard', a bit of nastiness in them...they knick yer dinner-money in the playground

It's almost strange to see the strength and edge they carry. I'm used to seeing our youngsters being knocked about. The Club did a good job beefing up HNM, they've obviously had a hand in Scott and Conway too. Though the attitude comes from the player, Scott looks like he could be a nasty piece of work if he wanted to, doesn't take a backward step and it's nice to see.

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Still early days, but encouraging signs...not at perceived full-strength yet!

With (  ) Kalas , Semenyo , Pring James all yet to really start this season things look ok.

I would like another CMF, someone to bring on later or rotate in games. Scott and Massengo put in a lot of yards, they all do, but we would miss their energy in MF if they start flagging .

I would say decent start, shows real promise but can do better. 

[Davefevs]

@1960maaan yes, a few others reminded me that Rob took a knock today, so I agree.

[1960maaan]

Just now, Davefevs said:

@1960maaan yes, a few others reminded me that Rob took a knock today, so I agree.

It was a strange one. Waved at the bench early on, but then played on. Went down and looked finished, then got up and stayed on.

The Nige effect, they're scared to come off 

[chinapig]

Just now, 1960maaan said:

It was a strange one. Waved at the bench early on, but then played on. Went down and looked finished, then got up and stayed on.

The Nige effect, they're scared to come off 

He said the "great treatment staff we have here" (his words) sorted him out at half time and he felt ok in the second half.

[INCRED]

2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

It was a strange one. Waved at the bench early on, but then played on. Went down and looked finished, then got up and stayed on.

The Nige effect, they're scared to come off 

He had a slight discomfort in his groin apparently but the physio worked their magic at half time and he said he was fine second half 

[Ian M]

I'm gonna drag out the last 10 games table from last season (GJ's infamous blocks of 10) once again:

...now heading into this season the rate of everything is almost identical:

 

For the last 15 games we have been the 7th best team in this division. With several young players and new players to this level that are likely to improve as the season wears on, plus the likes of Semenyo, Kalas and James to return, I have optimism that we are lined up for an exciting season.

[bcfcredandwhite]

Luck? Change of attitude?....... IMHO the luck (Cardiff missing 2 absolute sitters) actually caused the change of attitude.

I was going to post this on the Matchday thread but decided not to because I would probably have been be shot down for 'negativity'.

Firstly, I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday's game. It's the first time I've seen us so far this season and I thought we were excellent throughout. Great to keep a clean sheet too. Fantastic 3 points against a Cardiff side who are certainly no mugs.

Now, here's the 'but' part.....

We have made a habit of letting leads slip - which plays on my mind as a fan and I have no doubt that it plays on the players' minds too - it's bound to. Cardiff had 2 very clear chances to score, plus one (dodgy) penalty shout. Of course they didn't score and the penalty wasn't given - but we've seen games like this before SO many times where the opposition take their chances and we concede a dodgy soft penalty (Hull?). If just ONE of those Cardiff chances had been taken I wonder if we would have seen a VERY different game played out. 

Yesterday we kept the high press and the pressure - and we saw the game out positively which was great. For me, the BIG test of how we've matured as a side will be how we respond after conceding, given our (deserved) reputation for dropping points from winning positions. Would we panic and go to pieces, or would we dust ourselves off, believe in ourselves and get straight back at the opposition? 
IMHO mentally we need to bury this ghost - otherwise it will always be there lurking and gnawing at our confidence, which I think is still rather fragile.

In the meantime I'm enjoying the 3 points - no negativity intended - just honest reflection.

[GrahamC]

11 hours ago, Ian M said:

I'm gonna drag out the last 10 games table from last season (GJ's infamous blocks of 10) once again:

...now heading into this season the rate of everything is almost identical:

 

For the last 15 games we have been the 7th best team in this division. With several young players and new players to this level that are likely to improve as the season wears on, plus the likes of Semenyo, Kalas and James to return, I have optimism that we are lined up for an exciting season.

Really good point.

We were unfortunate at Hull, but not against Sunderland, who deservedly beat us, so the immediate noises from a few on here (& elsewhere) about the minimum number of points we needed after 5 games, 8 games was pathetic.

Even before you acknowledge the huge work that has been going on to reduce the wage bill (NP moved on 15 players last summer, another 6 permanently this) it is clear we are on an upward trajectory.

Pearson is no fool, he knows some would like it quicker, but considering our FFP constraints (still apparently a revelation to those suggesting that we sign this player or that one) he’s doing a very decent job.

[exAtyeoMax]

12 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

It was a strange one. Waved at the bench early on, but then played on. Went down and looked finished, then got up and stayed on.

The Nige effect, they're scared to come off 

Joe Williams was talking to the bench, I don’t know if he was asking to come off or not, but Nige gave him a shove back on to the pitch..

[glynriley]

14 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Luck? Change of attitude?....... IMHO the luck (Cardiff missing 2 absolute sitters) actually caused the change of attitude.

I was going to post this on the Matchday thread but decided not to because I would probably have been be shot down for 'negativity'.

Firstly, I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday's game. It's the first time I've seen us so far this season and I thought we were excellent throughout. Great to keep a clean sheet too. Fantastic 3 points against a Cardiff side who are certainly no mugs.

Now, here's the 'but' part.....

We have made a habit of letting leads slip - which plays on my mind as a fan and I have no doubt that it plays on the players' minds too - it's bound to. Cardiff had 2 very clear chances to score, plus one (dodgy) penalty shout. Of course they didn't score and the penalty wasn't given - but we've seen games like this before SO many times where the opposition take their chances and we concede a dodgy soft penalty (Hull?). If just ONE of those Cardiff chances had been taken I wonder if we would have seen a VERY different game played out. 

Yesterday we kept the high press and the pressure - and we saw the game out positively which was great. For me, the BIG test of how we've matured as a side will be how we respond after conceding, given our (deserved) reputation for dropping points from winning positions. Would we panic and go to pieces, or would we dust ourselves off, believe in ourselves and get straight back at the opposition? 
IMHO mentally we need to bury this ghost - otherwise it will always be there lurking and gnawing at our confidence, which I think is still rather fragile.

In the meantime I'm enjoying the 3 points - no negativity intended - just honest reflection.

We missed clear chances also. Conway one on one first half, Dasilva second half. 
 

Every team is going to have chances during a game, we took more of ours than them and have kept consecutive clean sheets, which hopefully shows the defence is getting to grips with what’s required. 

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Joe Williams was talking to the bench, I don’t know if he was asking to come off or not, but Nige gave him a shove back on to the pitch..

Yeah saw that. I thought the same. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

8 minutes ago, glynriley said:

We missed clear chances also. Conway one on one first half, Dasilva second half. 
 

Every team is going to have chances during a game, we took more of ours than them and have kept consecutive clean sheets, which hopefully shows the defence is getting to grips with what’s required. 

I totally agree - but other teams don’t have the ghost to bury that we have

[glynriley]

39 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I totally agree - but other teams don’t have the ghost to bury that we have

So would you rather Cardiff had scored, just to see if we could hang on at the end?

Call me old fashioned, but I’ll take the clean sheets. 

[Curr Avon]

15 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Enough of my wittering, another very good team performance, with some very good individual moments. If we can keep this up it could be a very enjoyable season.
 

For the record, I love your wittering fella. 

[Rossi the Robin]

Most teams will get chances in games, that’s why we have a goalkeeper 

[Red Skin]

Good post.

I think NP having his own coaches in and replacing players without poor attitudes (or that weren't gonna play) and replacing them with strong leaders has been key.

Also playing Naismith and Atkinson who are both able to carry the ball out of defence does mean the opposition midfield have to deal with their threat as well as the strikers (typically Weiman) dropping deep between the lines.   We seem much more able of open up teams this season especially with the pace of Conway and Wells to play on the shoulder and exploit teams playing a high line.   I like us playing out from the back (although nervy at times) as the whole pitch gets stretched allowing us to play.

We just seem much more fluid and have players much more capable of seeing and exploiting weaknesses in the opposition that they sniff out themselves, rather then being instructed on what to do.  (I know SO'D still gets stick, but I remember this was a big thing for him and I thought he had a very valid point in this regard).  They seem to be taking more responsibility and playing more with instinct and less with fear.   Can only get better if results continue to go they way they are  and confidence grows.  

Very exciting times.  Just hope we can keep all our players. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Red Skin

[spudski]

It's a funny ol' game...with a fit Semenyo, most likely Conway and Wells wouldn't have had the opportunities to shine. They've both excelled. Playing together a lot last season and in training has really developed an understanding of one another.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Semenyo is fully fit.

Personally I really like the idea of an agile high pressing front 3. 

3 from Wells, Conway, Weimann and Semenyo fills me with confidence.

It even crossed my mind as to whether there is a system that could fit certain players, that when on their game could cause a real threat...

________________Bents________________

___Kalas______Naismith____Atkinson__

_______________Williams_______________

____Scott___________________HNM_____

______________Weimann_______________

____Semenyo_____________Wells_______

_______________Conway_______________

There's a lot of energy in that selection...both offensively and defensively.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

13 hours ago, Ian M said:

I'm gonna drag out the last 10 games table from last season (GJ's infamous blocks of 10) once again:

...now heading into this season the rate of everything is almost identical:

 

For the last 15 games we have been the 7th best team in this division. With several young players and new players to this level that are likely to improve as the season wears on, plus the likes of Semenyo, Kalas and James to return, I have optimism that we are lined up for an exciting season.

I put a lot of stock in the blocks of 10 thinking, its enough games to get an proper idea of where you are at.

[ChippenhamRed]

3 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Luck? Change of attitude?....... IMHO the luck (Cardiff missing 2 absolute sitters) actually caused the change of attitude.

I was going to post this on the Matchday thread but decided not to because I would probably have been be shot down for 'negativity'.

Firstly, I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday's game. It's the first time I've seen us so far this season and I thought we were excellent throughout. Great to keep a clean sheet too. Fantastic 3 points against a Cardiff side who are certainly no mugs.

Now, here's the 'but' part.....

We have made a habit of letting leads slip - which plays on my mind as a fan and I have no doubt that it plays on the players' minds too - it's bound to. Cardiff had 2 very clear chances to score, plus one (dodgy) penalty shout. Of course they didn't score and the penalty wasn't given - but we've seen games like this before SO many times where the opposition take their chances and we concede a dodgy soft penalty (Hull?). If just ONE of those Cardiff chances had been taken I wonder if we would have seen a VERY different game played out. 

Yesterday we kept the high press and the pressure - and we saw the game out positively which was great. For me, the BIG test of how we've matured as a side will be how we respond after conceding, given our (deserved) reputation for dropping points from winning positions. Would we panic and go to pieces, or would we dust ourselves off, believe in ourselves and get straight back at the opposition? 
IMHO mentally we need to bury this ghost - otherwise it will always be there lurking and gnawing at our confidence, which I think is still rather fragile.

In the meantime I'm enjoying the 3 points - no negativity intended - just honest reflection.

I don't think Cardiff missing sitters is down to luck. It's down to the fact that their forwards weren't good enough, and our goalkeeper was good enough to make a save. That's rooted in ability, and - ultimately - recruitment of the right players with sufficient talent. Everything a club does in its efforts to progress boils down to those moments - I don't think you can dismiss that as mere luck.

[Davefevs]

What were the two sitters?

Assume Watters 1v1 was one of them?

Wyscout scored it 0.06 chance (1 in 16).

Infogol scored it 0.20 chance (1 in 5).

Wyscout can be stingey though.  But a 1 in 5 isn’t a sitter imho.

He didn’t really get it out of his feet and rushed it.  Compare that to Wells v Luton, who was calm.

[LondonBristolian]

Despite the outpourings of panic from a few posters, I think most of us knew the team was a bit better than we showed in the first two games. Since then we've found a bit of form, which is great. I don't think we've suddenly become world-beaters, and there will still be set backs, but we've found a system of playing, the defence is settled and we've got an attacking combination that works in Semenyo's absence.

I think we're better than last season and I think we'll keep picking enough points to be competitive in the division but I think it important not to get carried away as that only increases the woe and hysteria after the games where, inevitably, not everything will go our way. Still, the consecutive clean sheets have a nice and unfamiliar feeling to them! 

[The Bard]

Last  season we were top of the bottom 3rd

This year, Let's get ourselves to top of the middle 3rd.   9th place and 66-70 points would be excellent. 

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

It's a funny ol' game...with a fit Semenyo, most likely Conway and Wells wouldn't have had the opportunities to shine. They've both excelled. Playing together a lot last season and in training has really developed an understanding of one another.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Semenyo is fully fit.

Personally I really like the idea of an agile high pressing front 3. 

3 from Wells, Conway, Weimann and Semenyo fills me with confidence.

It even crossed my mind as to whether there is a system that could fit certain players, that when on their game could cause a real threat...

________________Bents________________

___Kalas______Naismith____Atkinson__

_______________Williams_______________

____Scott___________________HNM_____

______________Weimann_______________

____Semenyo_____________Wells_______

_______________Conway_______________

There's a lot of energy in that selection...both offensively and defensively.

There is a 4-3-3 lurking there. Four and a pivot and five beyond it in the second and third with energy in and out of possession.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

It's a funny ol' game...with a fit Semenyo, most likely Conway and Wells wouldn't have had the opportunities to shine. They've both excelled. Playing together a lot last season and in training has really developed an understanding of one another.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Semenyo is fully fit.

Personally I really like the idea of an agile high pressing front 3. 

3 from Wells, Conway, Weimann and Semenyo fills me with confidence.

It even crossed my mind as to whether there is a system that could fit certain players, that when on their game could cause a real threat...

________________Bents________________

___Kalas______Naismith____Atkinson__

_______________Williams_______________

____Scott___________________HNM_____

______________Weimann_______________

____Semenyo_____________Wells_______

_______________Conway_______________

There's a lot of energy in that selection...both offensively and defensively.

 

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

There is a 4-3-3 lurking there. Four and a pivot and five beyond it in the second and third with energy in and out of possession.

The 4-3-3...how would this work under this setup and with the personnel mentioned by @spudski, who goes to full back for one thing?

Looks like more of a 3-1-3-3 to me...yes I know that's a starting point.

[Cowshed]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

The 4-3-3...how would this work under this setup and with the personnel mentioned by @spudski, who goes to full back for one thing?

Looks like more of a 3-1-3-3 to me...yes I know that's a starting point.

Its not the same set up or exactly the same players. The intent is similar. 4-3-3  is really five with a mobile energetic five in front of it. 3-1-3-3 the intent is similar but dropping a player back is more pragmatic and easier to cover space down sides so a 5/5 v 4/6. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cowshed

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its not the same set up or exactly the same players. The intent is similar. 4-3-3  is really five with a mobile energetic five in front of it. 3-1-3-3 the intent is similar but dropping a player back is more pragmatic and easier to cover space down sides so a 5/5 v 4/6. 

Thanks.

I was looking at that wondering basically...who are the full backs? Can see how a lot of that might morph into a 4-3-3 but surely not Scott and Massengo? It looks very fluid however.

I can sort of see some link between the two shapes. Wasn't quite sure how to describe the formation in q tbh but looked closest to a 3-1-3-3 of some kind.

[spudski]

49 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

The 4-3-3...how would this work under this setup and with the personnel mentioned by @spudski, who goes to full back for one thing?

Looks like more of a 3-1-3-3 to me...yes I know that's a starting point.

 

40 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its not the same set up or exactly the same players. The intent is similar. 4-3-3  is really five with a mobile energetic five in front of it. 3-1-3-3 the intent is similar but dropping a player back is more pragmatic and easier to cover space down sides so a 5/5 v 4/6. 

Yep... exactly how I saw it.

Depends on whether defending or offensive...as to who drops back or who pushes forward.

As a 'static'...it was easier to show as a 3313. But in theory moves constantly depending on actions required during a game.

[spudski]

It's a bastardised version of this theory, but slightly more defensive. As in not pushed so high. So as to allow mistakes and not be hit on the counter attack.

A simple explanation...

The 3–3–1–3 was formed of a modification to the Dutch 4–3–3 system Ajax had developed. Coaches like Louis van Gaal and Johan Cruyff brought it to even further attacking extremes and the system eventually found its way to Barcelona, where players such as Andrés Iniesta and Xavi were reared into 3–3–1–3's philosophy.

It demands intense pressing high up the pitch especially from the forwards, and also an extremely high defensive line, basically playing the whole game inside the opponents' half. It requires extreme technical precision and rapid ball circulation since one slip or dispossession can result in a vulnerable counter-attack situation. Cruyff's variant relied on a flatter and wider midfield, but van Gaal used an offensive midfielder and midfield diamond to link up with the front three more effectively. Marcelo Bielsa has used the system with some success with Argentina's and Chile's national teams and is currently one of the few high-profile managers to use the system in competition today. Diego Simeone had also tried it occasionally at River Plate.