Arcade Fire 2022

[Port Said Red]

My wife and I are off to Birmingham tonight to see Arcade Fire. They are something of a bucket list band for me as I have wanted to see them for years, but they usually play festivals which I don't like at all.

My issue is that I don't quite know what to make of the allegations against Win Butler and how that will affect the show. 

I know that you can find quotes on line of people saying that they aren't going, but I keep thinking that so far he only has been found guilty in the "Twittersphere" where it seems allegations are enough these days.

The incidents happened a few years back when he apparently was in a dark place, his wife is supportive and apparently knew most of the alleged incidents, as they have always had an open relationship and everyone was of the age of consent, although younger than him but he says everything was consensual.

4 allegations so far, which again I feel like is about average for what you could find about any male popstar over a 20 year career if you were looking, there must be a few people who have had some sort of fling with a famous person, and then perhaps regretted it, or realised their reason for doing it was influenced by the position of the person. It doesn't take a great leap to get to "he used his influence" for some people.

I am wondering why now though? And I am wondering how it's going to feel when he comes out stage, or even "if" they will perform at all. 

Such a shame, so much great music potentially ruined.

[phantom]

Don't want to sound ignorant, but what are the "allegations"?

[Port Said Red]

5 minutes ago, phantom said:

Don't want to sound ignorant, but what are the "allegations"?

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2022/08/28/arcade-fire-win-butler-accused-sexual-assault/7924912001/

His support act, a Canadian singer called Feist has now pulled out of the tour.

[Super]

Def should be cancelled.

[mozo]

Wow, I hadn't heard about this. Yeah changes the dynamic a bit. 

As you say, the women may be revisionist as claimed by him, but also these stars are often feulled by booze and coke which isn't a recipe for good decision making. All speculation, who knows?!

[And Its Smith]

Watched them at Bristol Acqdemy when they toured their debut album. Amazing live.  However, personally I wouldn’t go to see someone who had numerous allegations against them.  I don’t judge anyone who does though. Personal decision. 

[Port Said Red]

5 hours ago, Super said:

Def should be cancelled.

 

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

Watched them at Bristol Acqdemy when they toured their debut album. Amazing live.  However, personally I wouldn’t go to see someone who had numerous allegations against them.  I don’t judge anyone who does though. Personal decision. 

Well I am here now, it's going to feel weird, but at this point they are just allegations and there have been many unfounded allegations against many of stars over the course of my life most of which disappeared into the ether over the course of time. Win may not have that luxury with the Internet, but as far as I can see there hasn't been any kind of police investigation so far.

[And Its Smith]

23 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

 

Well I am here now, it's going to feel weird, but at this point they are just allegations and there have been many unfounded allegations against many of stars over the course of my life most of which disappeared into the ether over the course of time. Win may not have that luxury with the Internet, but as far as I can see there hasn't been any kind of police investigation so far.

Fair enough. Usually when there is more than one allegation, four in this case, there is substance behind it.  But as I say, personal choice, no judgement. Enjoy the gig.  They put on a good show and are one of those bands who are better live than their albums are to listen too in my view 

[Silvio Dante]

Arcade Fire are my favourite band. I’ve seen them live multiple times, and the best gig I’ve ever been to was at Brixton Academy. Live, they’re more of a religious experience than a show. They’re that good live. Hell, Wake Up will be played at my funeral (in an unironic way).

I had tickets for tonight. I’ve not gone. Maybe I would have if I’d never seen them, but the problems for me are many fold:

- As I said, the gigs are so…consuming. You feel a real part of things and there is a huge connection. I don’t want to connect that way with Win at the moment

- And the reason for that is his statement. It’s bullshit. In essence it’s got two main factors “I know these women say it was non consensual, but it was, and to prove it, here’s the other consensual sex I had outside of marriage” (imagine that as a defence!) and “yeah, but Regine had a miscarriage”. Look, rock stars have Rock starred for years. And this may or may not have been consensual (the evidence isn’t conclusive at the moment IMO). And as said, I’ve got no doubt rock stars slept with people who weren’t sure pre internet and the fame tipped it over the edge to become “consensual”. But Wins defence and sense of entitlement makes me think it wasn’t consensual in this case. That’s not the defence of a sorry man. It’s the defence of one making excuses.

I love the band. Their music is genuinely life affirming. I’ll still listen to it. But I can’t go along and adulate Win. And I, like many other AF fans, are gutted.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Funny old world.  There is well-known documented evidence of the members of Led Zeppelin indulging in behaviour that goes way further than anything alleged here, but they are revered.  John Lennon wasn’t a very nice man in many ways.  Don’t start me on the Rolling Stones, Mick Jagger, Liam Gallagher, Axl Rose.

If every rock musician who got up to no good had their music cancelled, we’d all be listening to Julie Andrews and The Osmonds.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Funny old world.  There is well-known documented evidence of the members of Led Zeppelin indulging in behaviour that goes way further than anything alleged here, but they are revered.  John Lennon wasn’t a very nice man in many ways.  Don’t start me on the Rolling Stones, Mick Jagger, Liam Gallagher, Axl Rose.

If every rock musician who got up to no good had their music cancelled, we’d all be listening to Julie Andrews and The Osmonds.

Sexual assault is a different level from general rock n roll behaviour though

[mozo]

One thing I learnt over the years is to never have heroes because you never know what they're really like. 

When I saw the Jimi Hendrix movie and saw that he was a wife beater I was gutted. I still listen to his music but he's forever in the 'bit of a dick' category now.

[Leveller]

36 minutes ago, mozo said:

Sexual assault is a different level from general rock n roll behaviour though

Many accounts of “general rock n roll behaviour” involve teenage groupies though. Most, even.

[Port Said Red]

Well it was ******* amazing on many levels. Apart from one or two oblique references we were able to put those allegations to one side for 2 and a bit hours. I sort of understand @Silvio Dantes reservations and if and when these allegations go further then I will consider how I feel about them at that point. I have to say though that while there may be other AF fans who feel the same as him, there were plenty there tonight who seemed in a more forgiving mood.

Opening the show with Rebellion (lies) seemed important,  what certainly sounded like a heartfelt "thanks for turning up, I can't tell you how much it means especially now" and then what seemed to be a very personal cover of Bittersweet Symphony, it was a show like any other.

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Port Said Red

[internetjef]

They are one of my fav bands also. Really gutted to hear about Wins behaviour when it broke.

didnt have tickets for this tour so didn’t have the decision to make myself on attendance. 

Hope whatever the real truth is comes out in time so it all become less murky. No way they could replace him and carry on if he is to be cancelled in due course (as per Kasabaian).

Preparing myself for real possibility they might dissapear after these upcoming gigs and I never get to hear those tunes I love live again. As Silvio D mentioned earlier on they are an incredible live act 

even though last couple of albums have dipped a bit in quality comparatively IMO (but still decent with a few high points) , their live setlists are stilll amazing. Funeral is prob in my top 3 albums 

 

[Frenchay Red]

9 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Well it was ******* amazing on many levels. Apart from one or two oblique references we were able to put those allegations to one side for 2 and a bit hours. I sort of understand @Silvio Dantes reservations and if and when these allegations go further then I will consider how I feel about them at that point. I have to say though that while there may be other AF fans who feel the same as him, there were plenty there tonight who seemed in a more forgiving mood.

Opening the show with Rebellion (lies) seemed important,  what certainly sounded like a heartfelt "thanks for turning up, I can't tell you how much it means especially now" and then what seemed to be a very personal cover of Bittersweet Symphony, it was a show like any other.

 

 

 

I was there, also on my "bucket list".

Astonishingly brilliant performance. Faultless in my opinion. Playing on the small centre stage was a real show stopper (and starter) and fortunately right in front of where I was sitting. 

I just wish I hadn't got a bit lost trying to find my car afterwards 

[1960maaan]

I find these things really difficult to get my head around.
Proof either way has to be incredibly difficult. Rock star fame + Groupies + opportunities is a dodgy mix, plus usually getting your way due to fame ? It's a slippery slope. The other side of the coin, Paul Weller was accused of rape around 96. It took a little while for the announcement of no charges and there was complaints that the accuser get anonymity while the accused gets public trial or trial by public.  

It seems natural behaviour for some, to take advantage of position , the culture of fame & celebrity has a lot to answer for.

As for whether to go or not @Port Said Red , I would say go and wish you hadn't after rather than not go and wish you had. If it goes ahead it sounds like it will be an event, one that may not happen many times again. 

 

[Silvio Dante]

9 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Well it was ******* amazing on many levels. Apart from one or two oblique references we were able to put those allegations to one side for 2 and a bit hours. I sort of understand @Silvio Dantes reservations and if and when these allegations go further then I will consider how I feel about them at that point. I have to say though that while there may be other AF fans who feel the same as him, there were plenty there tonight who seemed in a more forgiving mood.

Opening the show with Rebellion (lies) seemed important,  what certainly sounded like a heartfelt "thanks for turning up, I can't tell you how much it means especially now" and then what seemed to be a very personal cover of Bittersweet Symphony, it was a show like any other.

 

 

 

Glad you enjoyed it, and they are awesome live as I said. I wouldn’t judge anyone who went particularly as they are bucket list -  It’s a funny one because had I not seen them live, and it hadn’t been so immersive, I may well have gone. AF being so good and their “connection” is something that has made this somehow worse.

The Kasabian comparison is an interesting one. I think they made the right decision there (and again, awesome live band), but I think Serge has always wanted to be a front man. I don’t see AF carrying on post this tour as the Win/Regine axis is so key, and even if Regine moves on, it’s going to be difficult for the fan base at scale to do so

[Port Said Red]

39 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I find these things really difficult to get my head around.
Proof either way has to be incredibly difficult. Rock star fame + Groupies + opportunities is a dodgy mix, plus usually getting your way due to fame ? It's a slippery slope. The other side of the coin, Paul Weller was accused of rape around 96. It took a little while for the announcement of no charges and there was complaints that the accuser get anonymity while the accused gets public trial or trial by public.  

It seems natural behaviour for some, to take advantage of position , the culture of fame & celebrity has a lot to answer for.

As for whether to go or not @Port Said Red , I would say go and wish you hadn't after rather than not go and wish you had. If it goes ahead it sounds like it will be an event, one that may not happen many times again. 

It's all a case of how the public wants to perceive people I think. Going back to the days of Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 13 year old cousin, Bill Wyman and the Mandy Smith affair, Pete Townshend accessing a child porn website, or even George Michael and his cottaging exploits. Wyman and Michael even made songs and videos glorifying their activity. These were all above the level of allegation and yet, apart a bit of lull initially,  there was no real damage to their careers. 

They were all popular before and the public seemed ready to forgive them, of course this was mostly early days of Social Media, so maybe that's the difference. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

It's all a case of how the public wants to perceive people I think. Going back to the days of Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 13 year old cousin, Bill Wyman and the Mandy Smith affair, Pete Townshend accessing a child porn website, or even George Michael and his cottaging exploits. Wyman and Michael even made songs and videos glorifying their activity. These were all above the level of allegation and yet, apart a bit of lull initially,  there was no real damage to their careers. 

They were all popular before and the public seemed ready to forgive them, of course this was mostly early days of Social Media, so maybe that's the difference. 

I think the major difference is that the women/girls involved didn’t have a voice, or at least not unless they said “the right things”. The music press wrote approvingly and extensively about bands likeLed Zeppelin and their teenage groupies and there were a few “superstar groupies” - some underage - who were interviewed about their exploits because it fed into the rock star Mythos but the music press of the time was focused on selling to teenage boys a dream of being a rock star and then being able to have sex wherever you wanted, whenever you wanted with whoever you wanted. There was no space for stories of women who did not like how they had been treated because the feelings of those women were pretty much irrelevant. 

Social media means that a woman who believes she has been raped or sexually assaulted has a space where they can say “this happened to me and this is how it affected me” and people actually hear the experiences from the other side, which is makes it far more uncomfortable to ignore.

[mozo]

On 03/09/2022 at 10:08, Port Said Red said:

It's all a case of how the public wants to perceive people I think. Going back to the days of Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 13 year old cousin, Bill Wyman and the Mandy Smith affair, Pete Townshend accessing a child porn website, or even George Michael and his cottaging exploits. Wyman and Michael even made songs and videos glorifying their activity. These were all above the level of allegation and yet, apart a bit of lull initially,  there was no real damage to their careers. 

They were all popular before and the public seemed ready to forgive them, of course this was mostly early days of Social Media, so maybe that's the difference. 

Consent is the difference 

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Consent is the difference 

Well there is no evidence of the contrary. Even in the Pitchfork article only one of the complainants says they were forced and even then says that in hindsight they felt forced. Again Mandy Smith was 13, all the people in this case are 18+. 

I still feel that there has to be more than allegations that have not even gone to the authorities before someone gets "cancelled".

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Port Said Red

[mozo]

3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Well there is no evidence of the contrary. Even in the Pitchfork article only one of the complainants says they were forced and even then says that in hindsight they felt forced. Again Mandy Smith was 13, all the people in this case are 18+. 

I still feel that there has to be more than allegations that have not even gone to the authorities before someone gets "cancelled".

 

Yeah and the crazy thing about this thread is it hasn't been particularly polarised in the modern way. I'm certainly not advocating cancelling (whatever that would mean). I was just responding to wait I thought was a conflation of examples that didn't seem to me to be particularly comparable. But yeah I think the general vibe on this thread is that he's still innocent until proven otherwise, and it isn't an easy decision to choose whether to support the band at the moment, and I'd agree with that. Not sure if I'd have gone either, but also thought they were great when I saw them at Glastonbury and also agree that the Funeral album is one of my favourites. 

[Renaissance Williams]

45 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yeah and the crazy thing about this thread is it hasn't been particularly polarised in the modern way. I'm certainly not advocating cancelling (whatever that would mean). I was just responding to wait I thought was a conflation of examples that didn't seem to me to be particularly comparable. But yeah I think the general vibe on this thread is that he's still innocent until proven otherwise, and it isn't an easy decision to choose whether to support the band at the moment, and I'd agree with that. Not sure if I'd have gone either, but also thought they were great when I saw them at Glastonbury and also agree that the Funeral album is one of my favourites. 

Like all the music centric threads on here - it does, after all, hath charms to soothe a savage breast - or even just a malignant troll! Here’s to music - including Arcade Fire. Glad you enjoyed the gig, PSR - I’m sick with envy missing them cover Bittersweet!