Defending

[DaveInSA]

I don't normally start a thread, but what I saw yesterday against QPR warrants one.

The defending was naiive and abysmal all at once. Not the defence. Defending. They are two totally different things.

From what I saw yesterday the key problems were:

• easy ball over atkinson - got done every time
• easy 3 vs 1 on vyner (several times) - skyes was AWOL and neither scott nor williams tracking back
• naismith gave the bal away so often
• sykes and Dasilva ineffective in attack (which actually cause us defensive problems - linked to point 2)
• absolutely zero pace in our back 3 (and from Wilson when he came on - he didn't look fit)
• and in the second half, after the subs on 59 minutes, litereally nobody knew what they were suppposed to be doing - it was an absolute mess

some of this is schoolboy stuff. i can forgive some of this - we know we're not a great defensive unit, but man alive we absolultley have to start at least trying to defend.by being a bit more streetwise and nasty. we're so polite and gentlemenly. can we at least learn to foul when positionally we're all at sea?

 

 

[Sir Geoff]

The initial poor defending can be accepted ( in certain circumstances ala point one), however what gets my goat is the complete lack of cover. If Atkinson is being done by a ball over the top where is Naismith coming across to cover. It's not happening. Vyner did it well a couple of times at Wigan but otherwise none of the back 3 are looking out for each other. We are so exposed time and time again. Basic defending, if your mate's getting done then come across and help and call in someone from midfield to cover the space you have just left.

[Sir Geoff]

Just now, Tafkarmlf said:

Didn't see the game so can't comment on it particularly. However we lack cohesion when we have Williams in the team. 

I'm not blaming one player I just dont think he fits our system. Massengo Scott and possibly even Naismith / Scott would work better as a centre pairing Naismith less likely to play some suicidal hospital passes and be able to cover what increasing looks like (happy to be corrected) errant Sykes

I agree. Yesterday everything slowed down when Williams got on the ball. He would stop it under his foot and invariably check back the other way with it before playing it square or backwards. At least Massengo tries to drive forwards with it. Williams was particularly poor yesterday imo.

[spudski]

We talk about individual errors when defending, but imo a lot of it is down to tactics.

The way the team are set up puts certain players under immense pressure. 

The way players are being asked to play is creating extra pressure that leads to the mistakes.

There is a fine balance between risk and reward. At the moment we are risking too much.

The rewards aren't outweighing the risks.

Teams are working out our weakness and directing their game towards those weaknesses.

To concede 18 goals in 11 games, second worst in the league is very poor imo. Yes...we've scored 20...but that means nothing if you lose games and get done the same ways every week.

A tweak is needed imo

[Alessandro]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

We talk about individual errors when defending, but imo a lot of it is down to tactics.

The way the team are set up puts certain players under immense pressure. 

The way players are being asked to play is creating extra pressure that leads to the mistakes.

There is a fine balance between risk and reward. At the moment we are risking too much.

The rewards aren't outweighing the risks.

Teams are working out our weakness and directing their game towards those weaknesses.

To concede 18 goals in 11 games, second worst in the league is very poor imo. Yes...we've scored 20...but that means nothing if you lose games and get done the same ways every week.

A tweak is needed imo

Absolutely spot on - teams have found Naismith out - so much goes through him. Opposition let him step out of defence, press him hard. If it's works and he's dispossessed hit over the top of Atkinson or isolate Vyner. 

This problem made worse yesterday by not having James as another quarter back option as Williams doesn't do that role well. 

All this compounded by a lack of tracking back or perhaps slightly fairer, Dasilva and Sykes and often Scott caught pushed up with too much ground to recover.

Tweaks needed.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

ut man alive we absolultley have to start at least trying to defend.by being a bit more streetwise and nasty. we're so polite and gentlemenly. can we at least learn to foul when positionally we're all at sea?

 

 

We got 3 bookings yesterday, so it's a tough balancing act.

Scott as a result of 5 in 11 games, will miss Tuesday. The dilemma is how to channel this without being penalised, but Massengo, Scott and Williams all got booked.

I know they aren't defenders but CMs can help to contribute to the defensive unit etc.

I also read that Williams is on 4 so we  could be approaching a problem.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Absolutely spot on - teams have found Naismith out - so much goes through him. Opposition let him step out of defence, press him hard. If it's works and he's dispossessed hit over the top of Atkinson or isolate Vyner. 

This problem made worse yesterday by not having James as another quarter back option as Williams doesn't do that role well. 

All this compounded by a lack of tracking back or perhaps slightly fairer, Dasilva and Sykes and often Scott caught pushed up with too much ground to recover.

Tweaks needed.

Yep , I would suggest some very large Tweaks are needed.....but unfortunately the changes that are needed in Defence and Midfield are not able to be implemented due to injuries and lack of squad depth.  It is going to be that type of season i feel, with pockets of victories followed by spells of defeats, which is why we will probably end up around 10th to 14th place come season end?.

It is a season of transition, which unfortunately will end up with one or two of our best players departing, and who can blame them?   It is then a question of whether NP has the wherewithal to spend our income wisely, and produce a side with depth and ability?  Next season IMHO, will be the real test, so i guess we just have to enjoy the patches of inspiration, tainted with the periods of capitulation that will be this season?  I don't think it will be dull   in 2022-23............just frustrating?

[Alessandro]

2 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Yep , I would suggest some very large Tweaks are needed.....but unfortunately the changes that are needed in Defence and Midfield are not able to be implemented due to injuries and lack of squad depth.  It is going to be that type of season i feel, with pockets of victories followed by spells of defeats, which is why we will probably end up around 10th to 14th place come season end?.

It is a season of transition, which unfortunately will end up with one or two of our best players departing, and who can blame them?   It is then a question of whether NP has the wherewithal to spend our income wisely, and produce a side with depth and ability?  Next season IMHO, will be the real test, so i guess we just have to enjoy the patches of inspiration, tainted with the periods of capitulation that will be this season?  I don't think it will be dull   in 2022-23............just frustrating?

You've summed up exactly my pre-season thoughts. A frustrating season, but all good building blocks for the next. 

Both in terms of player/culture/style development and/or considerable transfer revenue from selling one or two key assets which can be re-invested. 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

can we at least learn to foul when positionally we're all at sea?

Not you Alex. 

[Snufflelufagus]

What has happened to Klose? I can't remember it being said he was injured. Is Bamba still training with us as if so it seems a long time without offering him a contract.

[Galley is our king]

I am very hopeful that things will be better when Kalas comes back into the team. Has been really missed IMHO 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I like Kalas and think he would, or can be suited to a higher line but who would drop out, how would it be rejigged etc?

[redysteadygo]

I know I will be shouted down on my frustrations from yesterday but here goes.

Our defence, playing quite a high line, were 5 players strung out, equally spaced across the pitch, watching/facing the ball. The QPR players were almost level but stood between ours. How do you see opponents making a run in behind when they are out of vision. Call me old fashioned but I like to see forwards marked tightly that far up the pitch and put under pressure when receiving the ball or making a run. I appreciate the advantages of  zonal marking but the way we implement it is leaving to much space and time for attackers.

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Yep , I would suggest some very large Tweaks are needed.....but unfortunately the changes that are needed in Defence and Midfield are not able to be implemented due to injuries and lack of squad depth.  It is going to be that type of season i feel, with pockets of victories followed by spells of defeats, which is why we will probably end up around 10th to 14th place come season end?.

It is a season of transition, which unfortunately will end up with one or two of our best players departing, and who can blame them?   It is then a question of whether NP has the wherewithal to spend our income wisely, and produce a side with depth and ability?  Next season IMHO, will be the real test, so i guess we just have to enjoy the patches of inspiration, tainted with the periods of capitulation that will be this season?  I don't think it will be dull   in 2022-23............just frustrating?

23 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

You've summed up exactly my pre-season thoughts. A frustrating season, but all good building blocks for the next. 

Both in terms of player/culture/style development and/or considerable transfer revenue from selling one or two key assets which can be re-invested. 

Yep, both echo my thoughts.  I’m seeing a general trend of improvement, but you can’t race through to where you want to be when you’re only looking at free transfers, and even those (3 out of the 4) are from lower leagues.

Patience is still the key.

One game at a time mantra.

I saw a tweet pre-game yesterday that went along the lines of:

- 8 points from next 4 will be a decent return

- yeah, unbeaten will be great

Well, the second bit of of that tweet thread is down the swanny, and in some respects the pressure is on to get 3 wins out of 3 to meet the 8 points required.

I didn’t see yesterday bar the last 20 on a crappy stream, so can’t comment on that, but gonna be ups and downs.  We will see another change to the starting eleven on Tuesday with Scott suspended.  Players will get their chances over the coming weeks. And whilst we only had Kalas and Benarous were injured, and we had a strong bench, it only takes a couple more to be out to stretch us a bit.  That’s gonna be our season.

I’m really enjoying it.

[Johnny Musicworks]

All of our central defenders like to attack but tend to then leave us exposed. QPR worked an excellent game plan with pressing all 3 centre backs into mistakes as well as outpacing them with balls over the top when they moved forward. My concern is that teams have now worked out that we just don’t have a defender who primarily concentrates on defending. When you then add the absence of a ball-winning midfielder and 2 wing backs who are stronger offensively than defensively then we will struggle especially if our front 3 (or at least 2 of them in Conway and Weimann yesterday) are off their game.

Yesterday was probably a bit of a reality check for those of us who thought we may have a go for top 6 as QPR look more of a team by some distance who could do that. As others have said when James is out of midfield then Williams does not give the same solidity. I struggle to see what Williams gives us as he seems too error prone (like Naismith) and frankly does Alex no favours when alongside him. Apart from Scott and Wells and later Semenyo I am struggling to think of any player who did themselves justice yesterday.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Perhaps Williams and the system are not so well aligned? Perhaps also the long term injuries have impacted him moving forward.

I'm loathe to call for change or to query what has been a reasonably successful and highly entertaining for the most part season to date, but Williams and his energy...in a genuine 3 you have more room for that. Gaps appear if you have 2...I could see a good blend being formed out of Williams, James and Scott but then it would require a whole new shape so perhaps not! (Williams to do what he does best, Scott does his thing, James more solid).

Edited October 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Redandproud]

3 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

I don't normally start a thread, but what I saw yesterday against QPR warrants one.

The defending was naiive and abysmal all at once. Not the defence. Defending. They are two totally different things.

From what I saw yesterday the key problems were:

• easy ball over atkinson - got done every time
• easy 3 vs 1 on vyner (several times) - skyes was AWOL and neither scott nor williams tracking back
• naismith gave the bal away so often
• sykes and Dasilva ineffective in attack (which actually cause us defensive problems - linked to point 2)
• absolutely zero pace in our back 3 (and from Wilson when he came on - he didn't look fit)
• and in the second half, after the subs on 59 minutes, litereally nobody knew what they were suppposed to be doing - it was an absolute mess

some of this is schoolboy stuff. i can forgive some of this - we know we're not a great defensive unit, but man alive we absolultley have to start at least trying to defend.by being a bit more streetwise and nasty. we're so polite and gentlemenly. can we at least learn to foul when positionally we're all at sea?

 

 

Naismith giving the ball away too easily,well that's nothing new, the amount of mistakes he makes and yet Pearson still plays him, 

[Red-Robbo]

I felt the problem was as much about the kind of area that should be covered by defensive midfielders, as it was with the actual defending.

The ball got continually lost in what you might call the Cole Skuse zone - the middle third of our half - leaving the defence scrambling to get back and wrong-footed.

It was either loose back passes, or dallying on the ball for too long and getting caught looking around, that led to these losses.

Naismith and Vyner were primary offenders, but a number of other players also lost the ball in this very dangerous zone. 

Basically, we need someone in that area who is very difficult to get past. Yesterday, we didn't have that.

When opponents gain unexpected possession 30 yards out from our goal, they have the option to run directly at goal gathering pace, something all defenders hate. There is also time for them to bring the ball to our box and wait for their team mates to catch up. 

[BCFCGav]

I’ve been waiting for a thread where this is relevant; but the full backs are delivering such little quality into the box. They get into positions well more often than not, and both work really hard no doubt. And there are games/moment where this improves, Dasilva against Huddersfield springs to mind. But the quality is so often lacking. I’ve no idea how Pring isn’t challenging Dasilva for that spot, he’s a real talent!

Edited October 2, 2022 by BCFCGav

[DaveInSA]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, both echo my thoughts.  I’m seeing a general trend of improvement, but you can’t race through to where you want to be when you’re only looking at free transfers, and even those (3 out of the 4) are from lower leagues.

Patience is still the key.

One game at a time mantra.

I saw a tweet pre-game yesterday that went along the lines of:

- 8 points from next 4 will be a decent return

- yeah, unbeaten will be great

Well, the second bit of of that tweet thread is down the swanny, and in some respects the pressure is on to get 3 wins out of 3 to meet the 8 points required.

I didn’t see yesterday bar the last 20 on a crappy stream, so can’t comment on that, but gonna be ups and downs.  We will see another change to the starting eleven on Tuesday with Scott suspended.  Players will get their chances over the coming weeks. And whilst we only had Kalas and Benarous were injured, and we had a strong bench, it only takes a couple more to be out to stretch us a bit.  That’s gonna be our season.

I’m really enjoying it.

you wouldnt have enjoyed yesterday dave

[REDOXO]

10 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

I don't normally start a thread, but what I saw yesterday against QPR warrants one.

The defending was naiive and abysmal all at once. Not the defence. Defending. They are two totally different things.

From what I saw yesterday the key problems were:

• easy ball over atkinson - got done every time
• easy 3 vs 1 on vyner (several times) - skyes was AWOL and neither scott nor williams tracking back
• naismith gave the bal away so often
• sykes and Dasilva ineffective in attack (which actually cause us defensive problems - linked to point 2)
• absolutely zero pace in our back 3 (and from Wilson when he came on - he didn't look fit)
• and in the second half, after the subs on 59 minutes, litereally nobody knew what they were suppposed to be doing - it was an absolute mess

some of this is schoolboy stuff. i can forgive some of this - we know we're not a great defensive unit, but man alive we absolultley have to start at least trying to defend.by being a bit more streetwise and nasty. we're so polite and gentlemenly. can we at least learn to foul when positionally we're all at sea?

 

 

Alex Scott does!

[DaveInSA]

DaSilva's delivery yesterday was poor (at least in front of S83 in the second half). Often his crosses were either intercepted or the QPR man got a little nibble on it, meaning they were meat and drink for the other defenders / keeper.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

you wouldnt have enjoyed yesterday dave

I was at the Van Gogh exhibition, at 3pm on a Saturday, it was enough to make me cut an ear off…might’ve been worse had I been at Ashton Gate.

[sh1t_ref_again]

Thought Atkinson had is worse game for us, normally quite quick for a big bloke but looked like he was struggling, so maybe carrying an injury or unwell?

We effectively play a 3 man defence as our wing backs really play like wingers staying up the pitch and looked like we would get caught with there pace. 

Wilson again looked awful and no where near this level, very surprised as expected big things from him, maybe trying to hard to impress or just lack of match practice

DaSilva may gone on some little runs and have a song about him, but offers little else, can't cross a ball and seems to have lost his pace, would like to see Pring given a chance

Thought the only defender with any credit from Saturday was Vyner

Would prefer to see HNM in middle with Scott as they have looked good together and not convinced by Williams

 

[BLRed]

Need a pivot who can take the ball off Naismith, has decent special awareness to turn on a sixpence in tight spaces and move the ball forward/wide quickly. I’d like to see Scott there as he can pass, draw fouls if under pressure and he has the composure to keep the ball.
 

there was very little for option in midfield against qpr. Also when we did get it wide, we wasted the opportunities by not crossing quickly enough or poorly placed crosses that were easily defended. 

[Grey Fox]

Quite simply of the 10 outfield players only three are defensive players, everyone else is charging upfield like it was an under 8’s match. Exciting, granted, but can not succeed at this level.

I am comfortable we will avoid the drop, convinced we won’t go up, so will just sit back and enjoy the ride

Hopefully next season we can get serious and play like grown ups, but it might not be as much fun.

[old_eastender]

On 02/10/2022 at 13:13, Snufflelufagus said:

What has happened to Klose? I can't remember it being said he was injured. Is Bamba still training with us as if so it seems a long time without offering him a contract.

I think Klose (if/when fit) would make a real difference, certainly based on last season's performances. He doesn't have good pace, but his positioning is every good so compensates for that. He also plays low balls out well and generally exudes a calmness in his defending that would help Atkinson & Vyner.

I'm not suggesting he should necessarily take Naismith's place, but if Naismith was left CB (where he played for Luton) his seemingly inevitable dodgy moments might be less costly.

[Better Red]

On 02/10/2022 at 10:50, DaveInSA said:

I don't normally start a thread, but what I saw yesterday against QPR warrants one.

The defending was naiive and abysmal all at once. Not the defence. Defending. They are two totally different things.

From what I saw yesterday the key problems were:

• easy ball over atkinson - got done every time
• easy 3 vs 1 on vyner (several times) - skyes was AWOL and neither scott nor williams tracking back
• naismith gave the bal away so often
• sykes and Dasilva ineffective in attack (which actually cause us defensive problems - linked to point 2)
• absolutely zero pace in our back 3 (and from Wilson when he came on - he didn't look fit)
• and in the second half, after the subs on 59 minutes, litereally nobody knew what they were suppposed to be doing - it was an absolute mess

some of this is schoolboy stuff. i can forgive some of this - we know we're not a great defensive unit, but man alive we absolultley have to start at least trying to defend.by being a bit more streetwise and nasty. we're so polite and gentlemenly. can we at least learn to foul when positionally we're all at sea?

 

 

Agree with most of above.

They pushed 3 up on are back 3 from the start.  We looked exposed as soon as they look to run in behind.

After about the third time you would have thought we would do something tactically about - drop back 20 feet so no space behind or tuck the full backs in - we did nothing and paid the price.

Midfield was weak mainly due to Williams wanting to go backwards in stead of backwards 90% of the time. Also do we need to go to a three and go 4-3-3

Our wingbacks got forward in first 20 mins and then did nothing going forward - we need to improve in this area and we other players who we can give a go - Pring and Wilson

Are 3 centre backs will leak goals all year if they play together.

Atkinson - No pace.

Naismith - A mistake every 15 mins. But are most attacking player with the ball. He’s passes get the team going forward. 

Vyner - Has some pace but again has a mistake in him 

All three can not play together if we don’t won’t to coincide they are a recipe for exactly that.

We desperately need Kalas  back and need to find someone in midfield - maybe time to give Massengo more of a run in the team.

We are much better to watch this season but lack maybe 3 players to have a serious chance to get into playoffs.