'Style of play'...'Team Identity'...

[spudski]

Did anyone else watch Brighton on the weekend against Liverpool, and think they set up and play very similar to us when we do it well?

I saw this clip and thought it showed how we could adapt in playing less risky balls out from the back and utilising deeper sitting CMs.

 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

play very similar to us when we do it well?

Yep, if you watch us recently against Blackburn (a) and Norwich (a) it is very similar.

Naismith’s volume of passing into the 2 CMs / Weimann is great…it’s cutting out the ones that don’t make it, or stopping trying to play the near-impossible ones.

I do think his fellow CBs need to be a bit more cautious too, at least one of them has to be “safe” at times, they can’t always split, or push on.  The second Pukki goal where KN’s pass is intercepted, even Alex Scott was deeper than Kal, yet pushed up, leaving Vyner playing TP onside.

Every player just needs to be a bit more switched on.  There are huge benefits to KN’s play, but I don’t think he should shoulder every bit of responsibility / accountability when a goal / chance is given up through an attempted pass through the lines.  Some, yes, but not all, it’s far too easy to make him the scapegoat.  We are far too ready as a fan base to blame one person for each goal conceded.

[Mad Cyril]

Nyatanga was nowhere to be seen for any of those goals. Shocking defending. He has to go .

[spudski]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, if you watch us recently against Blackburn (a) and Norwich (a) it is very similar.

Naismith’s volume of passing into the 2 CMs / Weimann is great…it’s cutting out the ones that don’t make it, or stopping trying to play the near-impossible ones.

I do think his fellow CBs need to be a bit more cautious too, at least one of them has to be “safe” at times, they can’t always split, or push on.  The second Pukki goal where KN’s pass is intercepted, even Alex Scott was deeper than Kal, yet pushed up, leaving Vyner playing TP onside.

Every player just needs to be a bit more switched on.  There are huge benefits to KN’s play, but I don’t think he should shoulder every bit of responsibility / accountability when a goal / chance is given up through an attempted pass through the lines.  Some, yes, but not all, it’s far too easy to make him the scapegoat.  We are far too ready as a fan base to blame one person for each goal conceded.

I agree with that.

The bit regarding cutting out the bad balls...I posted on another thread about ' tweaking' our play.

For me...the tweak could easily just be the CMs and Weimann dropping back slightly more to receive the ball. To enable more space in behind. Creating a diamond. That way it would stop Kai having to try and play balls across the path of the opposition, where it can often get intercepted.

I realise he's being asked to play this way...so like you say...it's not all his fault. 

A small tweak like this could increase the rewards from the risks and wouldn't upset the way we play.

I thought this analysis of how Potter set up Brighton, is a good read and could easily be applied to us and our set up. The new Brighton manager hasn't changed it seems.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/graham-potter-brighton-and-hove-albion-202122-tactical-analysis-tactics

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

For me...the tweak could easily just be the CMs and Weimann dropping back slightly more to receive the ball.

It’s my major grumble that the 2-1-2 front 5 is too attack minded, certainly right at the outset of possession.  I think the first movement of too many players is to go forwards…and sometimes we haven’t really established possession.

How much we’d lose from our attack by being a bit more selective I don’t know, but I’d prefer slightly less roller-coaster games.

Having said that, is it really that resources slightly dictate that “attack is the best form of defence”?

Its a tough balance, and just like the 2 Brighton examples you shared, you can also see Klopp’s mantra re TAA in the one I shared on the weekend.

Its all about compromise, risk and reward, etc.  it’s tonnes better than pass it amongst the back 4 then hoof it!

[spudski]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s my major grumble that the 2-1-2 front 5 is too attack minded, certainly right at the outset of possession.  I think the first movement of too many players is to go forwards…and sometimes we haven’t really established possession.

How much we’d lose from our attack by being a bit more selective I don’t know, but I’d prefer slightly less roller-coaster games.

Having said that, is it really that resources slightly dictate that “attack is the best form of defence”?

Its a tough balance, and just like the 2 Brighton examples you shared, you can also see Klopp’s mantra re TAA in the one I shared on the weekend.

Its all about compromise, risk and reward, etc.  it’s tonnes better than pass it amongst the back 4 then hoof it!

I agree with that.

I like the way we are trying to play, but it's often too blasé. Just a little more care is needed.

The first passage of play in the highlights is a prime example.

The ball out wide from Kai...inches away from being intercepted and us all out of shape defensively.

Hearts stopping moment.

 

[LondonBristolian]

I think the encouraging thing with Brighton is they've got better and better as players adapt to the system and they sign players that fit how they want to play. I'd really like the lesson we take to be to persist with and tweak a style of play - even as players leave and even in the event of managerial changes - and trust in improvement over the time rather than reinventing the wheel. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

Interesting to see if the 2nd was off side as looked it at the time, you cannot quite get the correct shot of exactly when the ball was played, but looks likely to have been off, but Bentley should be collecting that cross

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Interesting to see if the 2nd was off side as looked it at the time, you cannot quite get the correct shot of exactly when the ball was played, but looks likely to have been off, but Bentley should be collecting that cross

I was level with all three goals and the QPR second definitely looked offside. In fact the linesman missed at least two others earlier in the game. When he did eventually raise his flag for a QPR offside there  was a huge cheer!

The boos at ht were aimed at the officials not the team

[sh1t_ref_again]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I was level with all three goals and the QPR second definitely looked offside. In fact the linesman missed at least two others earlier in the game. When he did eventually raise his flag for a QPR offside there  was a huge cheer!

The boos at ht were aimed at the officials not the team

Like wise I sit in the Lansdown stand, in line with the offsides, we thought all of them were off side (but then again we always do), but nice to see if you were correct or just the assumption of another sh1t official. The one he gave with the cheer, he took ages to put his flag up so was not sure if it was the ref who signalled to him, same as the fowl he eventually gave late in the 2nd half.

The problem was, our defenders could not keep pace with the QPR attack, so the linesman had no chance of keeping up with play, again shows the need for external help

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Like wise I sit in the Lansdown stand, in line with the offsides, we thought all of them were off side (but then again we always do), but nice to see if you were correct or just the assumption of another sh1t official. The one he gave with the cheer, he took ages to put his flag up so was not sure if it was the ref who signalled to him, same as the fowl he eventually gave late in the 2nd half.

The problem was, our defenders could not keep pace with the QPR attack, so the linesman had no chance of keeping up with play, again shows the need for external help

It was very noticeable how slick QPR were - at least half a yard quicker than us all over the pitch - they should/could have been outta sight by HT. 

Whether their domination was down their play or down to Citys poor performance is a moot point but we didn’t deserve anything from the game. Had we nicked a point we’d have robbed them of two points.

[sh1t_ref_again]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It was very noticeable how slick QPR were - at least half a yard quicker than us all over the pitch - they should/could have been outta sight by HT. 

Whether their domination was down their play or down to Citys poor performance is a moot point but we didn’t deserve anything from the game. Had we nicked a point we’d have robbed them of two points.

We started very well and first 20 minutes had then pegged back, but did not take our chances, as you said were the goals offside?, we seemed to lose our shape and heads after we conceded. Tommy should have squared to Wells for a tap in and then different game

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the encouraging thing with Brighton is they've got better and better as players adapt to the system and they sign players that fit how they want to play. I'd really like the lesson we take to be to persist with and tweak a style of play - even as players leave and even in the event of managerial changes - and trust in improvement over the time rather than reinventing the wheel. 

Agree, tweaks, not overhaul.  A dominant aerial ball-winning CB would be advantageous if we could get one.  Maybe Kalas, with little leadership and organisational responsibilities can help with part of that?

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

It was very noticeable how slick QPR were - at least half a yard quicker than us all over the pitch - they should/could have been outta sight by HT. 

Whether their domination was down their play or down to Citys poor performance is a moot point but we didn’t deserve anything from the game. Had we nicked a point we’d have robbed them of two points.

I missed the first half but what stood out for me was the drop in desire. Where was the hunting in packs?  the determination to impose their game on the opposition? The confidence ? We looked weary and second best ,not at all a team who believe they can get promotion. 
Too many of our players were ‘off it ‘. There may be valid reasons but, I am afraid to say, our coaches didn’t react quickly enough to turn things round.( apart from changing it when we started to turn things round that is) 

All in all a sad but typical City performance. Please don’t let us down again.

 

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Too many of our players were ‘off it ‘. There may be valid reasons but, I am afraid to say, our coaches didn’t react quickly enough to turn things round.( apart from changing it when we started to turn things round that is) 

All in all a sad but typical City performance. Please don’t let us down again.

 

No it wasn’t a ‘typical’ City performance at all when compared to this seasons previous Championship games - it was atypical of the performances that City have been putting in.

You’re right in as much too many City players were ‘off’ their game and post match Nige was at a loss to explain why that so.

Hopefully we’ll see a far better showing tomorrow night against Coventry.

 

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Agree, tweaks, not overhaul.  A dominant aerial ball-winning CB would be advantageous if we could get one.  Maybe Kalas, with little leadership and organisational responsibilities can help with part of that?

I can see Joe Low and Kalas both playing in the back three before the seasons out.

Could enable Kai to become more of a ball playing DCM...

[Midred]

How much time in training is taken with psychology lessons where players are trained not to "give up " if they go behind to avoidable goals or decisions made by the officials where they feel hard done by? Some 9f the recent games we seemed to have coped with going behind and were able to battle back.

[The Bard]

Webster's class was shown in  the build up to the 3rd Trossard goal. Did Salah proper then played a ball in with his weaker foot to Wellbeck.

No other English centre half can do that. 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

No it wasn’t a ‘typical’ City performance at all when compared to this seasons previous Championship games - it was atypical of the performances that City have been putting in.

You’re right in as much too many City players were ‘off’ their game and post match Nige was at a loss to explain why that so.

Hopefully we’ll see a far better showing tomorrow night against Coventry.

 

It was typical of City for the most part of my fifty odd years supporting the club. It was also typical of City to build us up and then let us down. 
Are things different now ? 
I want to see a performance tomorrow  that says ‘ YES’

Solidity is the word I am looking for. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I can see Joe Low and Kalas both playing in the back three before the seasons out.

Could enable Kai to become more of a ball playing DCM...

Need to see Joe Low properly before I can judge.  Only brief minutes last preseason and highlights so far.  In a recent interview I’m not sure Nige sees him as being close, just progressing nicely.  But we shall see as the season goes on.

I don’t see Kalas as a silver bullet, but I do think he improves the current defensive unit.  Hope he’s back before too long.

Having missed Saturday, really looking forward to tomorrow night, and how we cope without Scott, and maybe Williams if he can’t play Sat / Tues…although with Scott back Saturday there might be a case to play him tomorrow and rest him Saturday?  The other option is of course King and Massengo which is what we saw a fair bit pre-season.  Think Antoine will be unleashed from the start…and it’s bonkers that we are October and yet to see him start.  He must be itching to start.

 

 

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It was typical of City for the most part of my fifty odd years supporting the club. It was also typical of City to build us up and then let us down. 
Are things different now ? 
I want to see a performance tomorrow  that says ‘ YES’

Consistency is the word you’re looking for…………

Mine to…………but not so far this season…………..

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I can see Joe Low and Kalas both playing in the back three before the seasons out.

Could enable Kai to become more of a ball playing DCM...

Kalas won’t be back until after the World Cup and I haven’t see Joe Low play yet. I don’t think he’s been in the matchday squad so far. He was on loan at Eastleigh the last I heard.

[Gimme Shelton]

Saturday we took far too many touches in the back three, Brighton moved the ball with a maximum of three touches.However they did always have choices of who to pass to.

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Need to see Joe Low properly before I can judge.  Only brief minutes last preseason and highlights so far.  In a recent interview I’m not sure Nige sees him as being close, just progressing nicely.  But we shall see as the season goes on.

I don’t see Kalas as a silver bullet, but I do think he improves the current defensive unit.  Hope he’s back before too long.

Having missed Saturday, really looking forward to tomorrow night, and how we cope without Scott, and maybe Williams if he can’t play Sat / Tues…although with Scott back Saturday there might be a case to play him tomorrow and rest him Saturday?  The other option is of course King and Massengo which is what we saw a fair bit pre-season.  Think Antoine will be unleashed from the start…and it’s bonkers that we are October and yet to see him start.  He must be itching to start.

 

 

The times I've seen Low play, he's come across as a no nonsense ball winning CB. I think he was close to the first team until he got injured and it set him back. The loan out certainly developed him to handle men's football it seems, and he's grown into a man mountain big physical presence.  From the few times I've watched him live, he's always impressed.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Semenyo start tomorrow. And even Kadji make an appearance.

 

[cidered abroad]

5 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Interesting to see if the 2nd was off side as looked it at the time, you cannot quite get the correct shot of exactly when the ball was played, but looks likely to have been off, but Bentley should be collecting that cross

Rooted to his line for crosses!

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Kalas won’t be back until after the World Cup and I haven’t see Joe Low play yet. I don’t think he’s been in the matchday squad so far. He was on loan at Eastleigh the last I heard.

Is that speculation from you, because that is not what we’ve been told by the club - as recent as Thursday’s press conference.  Nige hasn’t said when he will be back, pre-international break he said October or November.  On Thursday he said there was nothing more to update from his last update.

 

[Robbored]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Is that speculation from you, because that is not what we’ve been told by the club - as recent as Thursday’s press conference.  Nige hasn’t said when he will be back, pre-international break he said October or November.  On Thursday he said there was nothing more to update from his last update.

 

I must have heard Nige’s comments differently to you Dave. I’m pretty sure that Nige salad that the knee injury that Kalas has it at the back on knee and therefore difficult  to operate on and also said he couldn’t put a time scale on when Kalas might be available “possibly November” - that’s  when the WC is.

[Garland-sweden]

Brighton plays good, no sloppy passes.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I must have heard Nige’s comments differently to you Dave. I’m pretty sure that Nige salad that the knee injury that Kalas has it at the back on knee and therefore difficult  to operate on and also said he couldn’t put a time scale on when Kalas might be available “possibly November” - that’s  when the WC is.

No, he definitely said “October / November”.

Here’s Thursday’s update.

For info, Nige also said he’s now had the “procedure” you mention.

Of course, it might well be after the WC, but we don’t know that yet.