Looking for answers - have we got a psychology problem?

[Curr Avon]

In an open game, City can compete with the best in this division, combining attractive, passing football with plenty of goals.

So why do we melt away against physical opponents like Birmingham and Millwall, who seek to stifle, bully and play the percentages?

Why aren't we mentally strong enough to be braver in possession and make better decisions in defence?

Rather than blame Pearson, I'd prefer a rational discussion.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Curr Avon

[Sir Geoff]

Lack of bravery on the ball is one of our biggest problems. Spose you could say that's psychological.

[sludge]

6 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

In an open game, City can compete with the best in this division, combining attractive, passing football with plenty of goals.

So why do we melt away against physical opponents like Birmingham and Millwall, who seek to stifle, bully and play the percentages?

Why aren't we mentally strong enough to be braver in possession and make better decisions in defence?

Rather than blame the manager, or be accused of being 'knee jerk' (as a regular FBC podcaster), I'd like a rational discussion.

one word answer = recruitment 

[Beni71]

Unlike Birmingham I don’t think we were bullied today. Millwall set out to contain us and did a good job. We didn’t move the ball quick enough throughout and it allowed Millwall to maintain decent shape.

After our equaliser we weren’t patient enough and our movement was poor. Pring and Weimann were really high and wide but we struggled to get Scott on the ball and Martin didn’t drag Cooper round like I hoped he would.

I think our lack of patience cost us a point. Very different performance than the Brum game. Without a doubt Pearson picks the team and sets us up but once again a number of players were off the pace.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

11 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

In an open game, City can compete with the best in this division, combining attractive, passing football with plenty of goals.

So why do we melt away against physical opponents like Birmingham and Millwall, who seek to stifle, bully and play the percentages?

Why aren't we mentally strong enough to be braver in possession and make better decisions in defence?

Rather than blame Pearson, I'd prefer a rational discussion.

We have a quality problem in key areas. 

[Simon bristol]

8 minutes ago, sludge said:

one word answer = recruitment 

Yes, a lot of our players just arent very good! We have a few with a transfer value, but most of them nobody would give any money for, and they are on fat contracts here, which people wont match to sign them. Getting rid of palmer was great, but theres probably 10 more we just need to give away, then sign perhaps 4/5 players like wallace and swift who went to west brom who are recognisable good quality championship players. At least next summer there will be some big pay cuts happening to quite a few first teamers, and no doubt a few more will be off.

[sludge]

1 minute ago, Simon bristol said:

Yes, a lot of our players just arent very good! We have a few with a transfer value, but most of them nobody would give any money for, and they are on fat contracts here, which people wont match to sign them. Getting rid of palmer was great, but theres probably 10 more we just need to give away, then sign perhaps 4/5 players like wallace and swift who went to west brom who are recognisable good quality championship players. At least next summer there will be some big pay cuts happening to quite a few first teamers, and no doubt a few more will be off.

we were unlucky with the Baker situation as that is exactly the type of player we are missing 

[Super]

We are weak and have been for years. Every team in the league knows it.

[marmite]

We looked very lightweight in appearance today. Millwall looked bigger, stronger , and more physical than City ,  and that's how it played out.

[Simon bristol]

7 minutes ago, sludge said:

we were unlucky with the Baker situation as that is exactly the type of player we are missing 

Yes, that would have been one, but another 4/5 would still have been needed!.

[Curr Avon]

What can we do about our fragility in the short term with the existing squad and management?

[formerly known as ivan]

53 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Lack of bravery on the ball is one of our biggest problems. Spose you could say that's psychological.

Nail on head!

Apart from Scott, no one else wants to hold/run with the ball. Scott’s run in the first half was outstanding. Not only is he the only one able to do that, no one offered anything ahead of him.

[Simon bristol]

1 minute ago, Curr Avon said:

What can we do about our fragility in the short term with the existing squad and management?

I guess anyone physically weaker comes out,,, so dasilva and wells out, pring and martin in with semenyo and weimann. move sykes out of rwb and put tanner in, kalas back in defence instead of vyner. And hopefully bajic in goal will bring a new mentallity.

[Curr Avon]

5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Nail on head!

Apart from Scott, no one else wants to hold/run with the ball. Scott’s run in the first half was outstanding. Not only is he the only one able to do that, no one offered anything ahead of him.

Agreed. During injury time when we were crying out for creativity, no-one wanted the ball. We seemed nailed to the floor and Millwall won comfortably. 

I'd say Semenyo also wanted the ball during normal time and created chances.

[Andrew_V1]

I think mentality is part of it, however the cold reality is numerous players simply aren’t good enough.

O Leary would not get near a starting place in another championship side 

Vyner whilst much improved this season is not someone you’d look to bring in to build a defence at this level

Dasilva has good close ball control but cannot deliver a quality cross with any regularity and can’t shoot.

Going back to the original point though the inability to deal with the direct sides has been an issue for years ever since the LJ days and we haven’t exactly brought in many players since then that are up for a scrap and mix it up in the niggly games and so we go round and round getting done by the most basic tactics. It’s gone beyond frustrating now 

[maxjak]

NP in his post match interview stated that we have to stop giving away soft and ridiculous goals......he is the manager, and needs to manage?   Maybe i am just getting fed up, and disillusioned with some of our weak performances, and i am perhaps being too critical?   But I am getting bored   with his constant post match excuses.  It's great that he has got us back on a reasonable even keel?  He has sorted out a few issues, and stabilised some aspects of the squad.....but i cannot help feel that he has got us far as he can?    I would start looking for a young forward thinking coach for next season, but then again i have absolutely no faith in our recruitment......so i guess we will just plod on ...........further and further from ever getting anywhere near the Prem??

[Curr Avon]

We'll be discussing this on the FBC podcast at 10am tomorrow. Keep your answers coming. I'd like to hope that Pearson and the team can get through this and climb the table.

[Simon79]

3 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

Agreed. During injury time when we were crying out for creativity, no-one wanted the ball. We seemed nailed to the floor and Millwall won comfortably. 

I'd say Semenyo also wanted the ball during normal time and created chances.

Did you? I thought his movement was poor, along with Conway. I thought that ran throughout the team today. No urgency, no zip in the passing, no combinations & poor movement. Looks to me like our energy has gone & that was one of our biggest assets a few weeks ago. COYR 

[DaveInSA]

I thinks it’s about combinations.

The players on paper are good enough for most championship teams outside the top 6. But the combination of these players just doesn’t have the bite and bottle needed.

They’re weak mentally, have very little resilience and can’t cope with ‘bad times’. I don’t see too many leaders on the pitch. Who can wrap their arms round players or gee them up. When your U19 player is the senior pro, that says something about what you are missing.

This isn’t a new thing by the way. We actually recruited this DNA of nice lads deliberately so we could have clubs in the bag.

What Pearson has to work with is no depth either. It’s where we are.

Once Kalas and Naismith are fit, surely we have to move to a back 4 with Naismith just in front? 
 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, DaveInSA said:

I thinks it’s about combinations.

The players on paper are good enough for most championship teams outside the top 6. But the combination of these players just doesn’t have the bite and bottle needed.

They’re weak mentally, have very little resilience and can’t cope with ‘bad times’. I don’t see too many leaders on the pitch. Who can wrap their arms round players or gee them up. When your U19 player is the senior pro, that says something about what you are missing.

This isn’t a new thing by the way. We actually recruited this DNA of nice lads deliberately so we could have clubs in the bag.

What Pearson has to work with is no depth either. It’s where we are.

Once Kalas and Naismith are fit, surely we have to move to a back 4 with Naismith just in front? 
 

I think we'd be a lot better with a back four...without losing our ability to be creative and an attacking force.

However...I think NP has recruited to play with 3 at the back, and wide 'wing backs'.

The reliance to play wide and cross is often left to chance rather than control.

I'd prefer us to go more 433 or 4312

A back four from Vyner, Kalas, Klose/Naismith, Atkinson.

Midfield of Weimann, Scott, Williams. Energy with defensive and offensive ability and link play.

Front three of Semenyo, Conway, Wells.

Imo that set up would make us harder to play through, but still give us plenty of offensive attributes from defence as well.

I very much doubt this will happen though...as imo, NP seems set in his way of playing the likes of Sykes and DaSilva and attacking down the flanks and crossing.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 hours ago, Simon79 said:

I thought that ran throughout the team today.No urgency, no zip in the passing, no combinations & poor movement. Looks to me like our energy has gone & that was one of our biggest assets a few weeks ago. COYR 

Agree on this..putting aside Semenyo, we just seemed flat all round I thought. Zip, urgency, none of that as you say. Mundane at one end while conceding loads of chances by the end.

Unlike say QPR at home where we didn't really get started until the 2nd half where we did play quite well at times, I didn't see much at all yesterday, we didn't really get started full stop.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Harry]

It’s not psychological. It’s ability. 

[shelts]

Millwalls form away from home has been terrible . Who thought we’d give them a helping hand before we kicked off ?

I hoped it wouldn’t go the way it did . A gift to a side that are struggling on the road . Is this the same old City ?

[Cowshed]

16 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

In an open game, City can compete with the best in this division, combining attractive, passing football with plenty of goals.

So why do we melt away against physical opponents like Birmingham and Millwall, who seek to stifle, bully and play the percentages?

Why aren't we mentally strong enough to be braver in possession and make better decisions in defence?

Rather than blame Pearson, I'd prefer a rational discussion.

That is not necessarily a psychological problem.

The team players may not have the ability to consistently deal with the physical. There ability feeds tactical flexibility to control the physical. If the former is not present that then has an impact on mindset. 

Being braver in possession works in a similar manner. Mindset follows ability. Decision making follows ability.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That is not necessarily a psychological problem.

The team players may not have the ability to consistently deal with the physical. There ability feeds tactical flexibility to control the physical. If the former is not present that then has an impact on mindset. 

Being braver in possession works in a similar manner. Mindset follows ability. Decision making follows ability.

 

Would in your view, being braver in possession, seeking to get more control (not necessarily solely dominating the ball) but you know control the midfield with a genuine central 3, that sort of thing assist wirh ability to deal with the physical or are they too very separate issues.

Mind you, tactical and technical issues go our of the window for their winner- that was very poor by any measure!

[Cowshed]

38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would in your view, being braver in possession, seeking to get more control (not necessarily solely dominating the ball) but you know control the midfield with a genuine central 3, that sort of thing assist wirh ability to deal with the physical or are they too very separate issues.

 

Brave is subjective. 

Thats an intent. An approach, A principle of play. They are never wholly separate issues because the teams and individuals mindsets follows their confidence in their ability to carry out their tasks within the team intent and principles. 

Principles are bold. They are what the team ARE.

The opening post highlighted a positive in City’s play. City do penetrate teams from low possession %. Possession is risked to play forwards quickly. That is bold and brave. So players are bold and brave at those tasks but not at others? The answer is frequently individual ability. 

38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Mind you, tactical and technical issues go our of the window for their winner- that was very poor by any measure!

Tactical is a how high is that line? Are lines always that high? Why could be the technical. City have not been controlling deeper lines either. Its very poor, a Lordy wtf was that moment, but it was different and I would expect emphasis in training to focus on roles -You control, that, you don't come out here and thats is your role there etc. There is a point here about episodic and periodized training feeding confidence but it will still go back to players abilities. 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Cowshed

[Champfan45]

Watching the way we play lately would give anybody psychological problems. They will start forcing people to sign a waiver upon entering the ground if it keeps up much longer.

[W-S-M Seagull]

Yesterday I decided to sit right next to the subs bench to get a different perspective of things. 

I think I just sensed a lack of passion. And if you've not got that passion against a team like Millwall then you're screwed. 

I think our mentality is almost victim like. Like oh here we go again were not getting the rub of the green, we've got another bad ref etc. Pearson and Fleming looked dejected and bereft of ideas following Milwalls second. There was still plenty of time left. 

Conway when he came off genuinely looked as if he was going to cry. He seemed to be the only one that did care. 

I didn't really once see any of the subs show much passion from the bench. Just happy to sit there and talk and count down the minutes until they could go home. 

I don't know I just sensed something doesn't quite feel right. Its just all a bit too cosy. It seems like the collective team spirit just isn't there. 

Even when Klose went off to get bandaged up, there appeared to be no real rush to get him back out. Why is he having to go to the changing room to be bandaged? We were down to 10, every second was vital. It took a while for anyone to even go and ask how long he'd be. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

19 minutes ago, Champfan45 said:

Watching the way we play lately would give anybody psychological problems. They will start forcing people to sign a waiver upon entering the ground if it keeps up much longer.

We did win on Wednesday. 

Tbf, things at home are a lot better than they have been for the past few seasons, let's not forget that. Still a long way to go but improvement has been made. 

[Pippintogg]

I do think that psychologically we are weak, I'm not quite sure what the sports psychologists are doing at the club because it's not working. I work in the mental health profession and have been a football coach and feel frustrated that this side of the squad is not improving. It's about mental toughness, confidence, decision making, recovery from injury and a whole host of other areas.  The other problem we have, as others have said many times, is that many of the players aren't good enough at this level. That comes down to recruitment. The academy is providing good prospects but last night proved there is little strength in depth. It's going to be long frustrating season.