Was this the start of 1982 financial collapse

[Eddie Hitler]

32 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

We just got there too late. We needed to get there in the 50s when we had Big John and crowds were huge after the war. The boom didn't last and we got there as the game was going bust

 

Yes, my Mum's whole family used to go to the football in the 1950s.  It was a cheap day out for working class people in cities.

There was no saftey concern any more than going on a church picnic; which they also did.

[GrahamC]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You were there by the sound so I won't query first hand experience but at the same time, attendances nationally declined from say mid to late 1970s and bottomed out mid 1980s. Is a fair inference that the violence was getting worse or perhaps more organised Idk?

Irrespective of the reasons, they had a precipitous 5-10 year decline. Throw in a triple relegation, a brutal downward spiral and it's inevitable in hindsight.

Of course just opinion but think the decline in crowds was far more to do with economic factors.

I started going circa ‘71 (I was 8!), but 73-75 were in my opinion the very worst hooligan years, it was unpredictable & the authorities were struggling with it, as segregating fans had really only just started.

It carried on well into the 80s of course, as did the recession.

[Port Said Red]

5 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

They don't come cleaner than Bollom clean.

They only ever seemed to advertise on a Friday, after the Good Neighbour show with Fred Wedlock and Sherrie Eugene and before Winner Takes All (hosted by Tarby), "we have a difference of opinion here, Dave has gone with 'Sausages' at 14/1 and Margaret has answered 'Deep maths' a 2/1 favourite'.

Then it was Albion Market, before a proper treat like CATS Eyes.

As you were.

(Should have added the voice of Geoffrey Wheeler to the Winner Takes All reference)

Funny you should mention cleaning and Fred Wedlock in the same sentence, it gives me an opportunity to tell one of his pieces from his live show.

He used to work in advertising and one day was given the chance to come up with a name and a slogan for this super duper new cleaning agent. He wasn't successful but he did come up with one they would never use. He called it "BUGGER", which stood for 

Best Universal Grit Grime and Effluent Remover.

The slogan?

If Omo don't brighten it and Daz don't whiten it, BUGGER IT!

Edited October 25, 2022 by Port Said Red

[Swede]

I think Graham C has got it spot on. The start of our financial decline was as a consequence of Gary Collier being one of the first freedom of contract footballers. He exercised his right to negotiate & seek work elsewhere at the end of his contract. I believe the club thought because they held his registration he effectively couldn't play for anyone else so therefore would have to toe the line eventually & agree to sign on the club's terms.

As a knee jerk reaction to that, the club then went and gave 10 & 11 year contracts to players they considered assets like Merrick & Whitehead to try and counter this. Back then players didn't move about as much so you would quite often see testimonials for long serving players.

You have to try and think what it was like back then to go to a football match. Lots of terracing, fewer seats. Stadiums were very different back then, very individual. Grand old places like Maine Road & Highfield Road contrasting to the querky Dell. Very different from present day stadiums.

[Bristol Oil Services]

35 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I think the violence stuff is a complete red herring.

It was really bad from the very early 70s, certainly as far back as I can remember.

If you were going it didn’t put you off (very scary at times) but it was no different, possibly even slightly on the wane, by the time we got promoted.

"If you were going it didn't put you off," fair enough. But what if you weren't going? Why weren't you going?

Because it didn’t put you or others like you off doesn't mean it didn't deter others, might I point out. It was part of a "package" into which we might add televised football, that made football very unpopular for a time and coincided with a sharp decline in attendances.

You didn't have to be in the thick of it - the violence - to be uncomfortable at least, if not deterred. @77 punk wasn't, I know, deterred by the "action" at his bus stop after the game the night Tottenham were relegated here but if we'd been playing them in the cup the following Saturday I reckon he would not have waited for the 339 at 5pm at that stop, not if we'd beaten them again, just in case, and maybe gone and seen The Clash in town first or something or other. 

Alan Dicks was clear in his programme notes that the behaviour of some (young) supporters was making Ashton Gate unattractive to some potential supporters. 

If you went in the 1950s as a teenager then stopped, and thought about going again in your thirties maybe with a child in 76 or 77 you would not have found everything to your liking, I'm sure.

 

 

[Bristol Rob]

15 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Funny you should mention cleaning and Fred Wedlock in the same sentence, it gives me an opportunity to tell one of his pieces from his live show.

He used to work in advertising and one day was given the chance to come up with a name and a slogan for this super duper new cleaning agent. He wasn't successful but he did come up with one they would never use. He called it "BUGGER", which stood for 

Best Universal Grit Grime and Effluent Remover.

The slogan?

If Omo don't brighten it and Daz don't whiten it, BUGGER IT!

If you download The Folker from Amazon Music that story is the introduction to 'Handier Household Help'

[NcnsBcfc]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

I was too young at the time to know this sort of detail, so would just make these observations;

History is always written by the winning side, AD (88 now, God bless him) is the only one that’s still around from that era..

The board (& this never changes) didn’t have the first clue about football, so if it is true this would have been our financial director, who was Stephen Kew, I believe (no relation to Les).

We did get caught in a perfect storm, but AD was far too reliant on players that bluntly were by then past it (so Sweeney, Tainton, Merrick, Rodgers) plus we had already sold off those who were (Gow, Ritchie, Whitehead) to cut our costs. He was also incredibly passive in the transfer market as a result, whole seasons would go by with no signings or departures.

Those that were finally brought in to replace the players sold, so Marshall & Aitken were absolutely shite.

When the FBC podcast crew were given a tour of the HPC recently by Scott Murray; also in our party was Tom & Steve Richie.

Whilst marvelling at the facilities, Tom also told me about his contract negotiations at the end of the season were always with AD.

He said that he would go into AD's office, and AD would ask him how well he felt he had played over the course of the season; and whether he felt that he deserved a pay rise? AD would then say something along the lines of "There's an extra tenner on your weekly pay packet for you". Tom Richie didn't know whether that was a good or bad rise, and just accepted that that was the status quo of the time.

I'm sure that AD was well aware of what the player's wages were, and would advise the board accordingly on length of contracts as well.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

"If you were going it didn't put you off," fair enough. But what if you weren't going? Why weren't you going?

Because it didn’t put you or others like you off doesn't mean it didn't deter others, might I point out. It was part of a "package" into which we might add televised football, that made football very unpopular for a time and coincided with a sharp decline in attendances.

You didn't have to be in the thick of it - the violence - to be uncomfortable at least, if not deterred. @77 punk wasn't, I know, deterred by the "action" at his bus stop after the game the night Tottenham were relegated here but if we'd been playing them in the cup the following Saturday I reckon he would not have waited for the 339 at 5pm at that stop, not if we'd beaten them again, just in case, and maybe gone and seen The Clash in town first or something or other. 

Alan Dicks was clear in his programme notes that the behaviour of some (young) supporters was making Ashton Gate unattractive to some potential supporters. 

If you went in the 1950s as a teenager then stopped, and thought about going again in your thirties maybe with a child in 76 or 77 you would not have found everything to your liking, I'm sure.

 

 

The point I was making was that it was an established part of going to football well before our promotion year, so I didn’t see it as the factor that others did.

Doesn’t mean I’m right here, either, but your background, I had a working class father who even at 81 still remains obsessed with the game, also plays a big part, too.

No argument at all from me about how “uncomfortable” it was, my brother got a few smacks when we were leaving The Hawthorns (he was about 14) & I still remember being scared at St.Andrews, Upton Park & Selhurst Park. Nor about the fact if I’d been a father & applied today’s values (which many of course didn’t) I would have thought long & hard before taking children along.

From this distance I look back & am amazed at the fact I went (away, on my own from 14) & also that on reflection the grounds weren’t just scary then but were downright dangerous, as Bradford & Hillsborough later showed.

I would say though @Swede is spot on, it was a very different time, many things that fortunately we would just see as completely unacceptable now (casual racism, sexism, indifference to this level of violence) were ignored, if not possibly tolerated.

I think AD was racking his brains for the reason our gates were poor, but in reality the reasons were numerous, including West Country apathy.

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by GrahamC

[Bristol Oil Services]

9 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

The point I was making was that it was an established part of going to football well before our promotion year, so I didn’t see it as the factor that others did.

Doesn’t mean I’m right here, either, but your background, I had a working class father who even at 81 still remains obsessed with the game, also plays a big part, too.

No argument at all from me about how “uncomfortable” it was, my brother got a few smacks when we were leaving The Hawthorns (he was about 14) & I still remember being scared at St.Andrews, Upton Park & Selhurst Park. Nor about the fact if I’d been a father & applied today’s values (which many of course didn’t) I would have thought long & hard before taking children along.

From this distance I look back & am amazed at the fact I went (away, on my own from 14) & also that on reflection the grounds weren’t just scary then but were downright dangerous, as Bradford & Hillsborough later showed.

I would say though @Swede is spot on, it was a very different time, many things that fortunately we would just see as completely unacceptable now (casual racism, sexism, indifference to this level of violence) were ignored, if not possibly tolerated.

I think AD was racking his brains for the reason our gates were poor, but in reality the reasons were numerous, including West Country apathy.

 

Yes, that's my point: it's a number of factors. Increasing violence being one of them. And apathy around here too, that can be factored in.

When we got to the top the club expected old fans to come back, and new ones to be made, but that mix of 1970s factors contributed to that not happening, with these people. I reckon.

The first programme I picked up was Man City Feb '78, and of 46 lines on AD's page, 38 are about dart throwing and the potential closing of the ground and playing at a neutral venue, and the consequences of that. AD wanted us to "grass" on whoever was chucking darts.

We perhaps forget now what an issue it was, 45 years ago. Or maybe the club went on about it too much?

Interestingly, we're 14th in the table at that point, and 15th in the attendances table. Getting more than Wolves, Boro, Ipswich and Norwich. Not too shabby. And we hadn't played Liverpool or Manchester United by that point.

If I had to pick one crowd deterring factor from that era it wouldn't be your economics or violence, it would be that we were a bit disappointing and struggled for three of the four seasons.

[Tonks55]

10 hours ago, Never to the dark side said:

gavlin

may I ask if you have any more Green Uns hanging around?

NTTDS - if you 'facebook' then join Steve Sutor's 'Old Football photos' page where he regularly posts Green Un pages from the past. See https://www.facebook.com/groups/227604377375687/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=2694582284011205

[Never to the dark side]

Thank you

[Rocking Red Cyril]

8 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

I can't agree that the support was luke-warm in the First Division era, there weren't so many season ticket holders so gates fluctuated more, yes there were some lower gates in midweek games against teams lower in the table but for example when we played Liverpool at home at the end of our first season we got 38,688. Me and my mates certainly didn't stop watching them when they went down either although we did lose a lot of fans who used to travel from around the south-west just to see a first division game as there was nothing else anywhere close. You wouldn't expect to get the same number of fans willing to watch Notts County rather than Arsenal, say.

Yes me and my mates kept going through those relegation years

[cidered abroad]

12 hours ago, GrahamC said:

To answer the OP, no, it wasn’t.

This was when we rejected the £250k offer from Arsenal for Merrick & Ritchie, hoping we got promoted to Division One instead, which of course we did.

The financial crisis came much later, (3/4 years) the long term contracts we gave out as a response to Gary Collier walking out on us (though it is forgotten now we got £350k for him, a huge sum then) was definitely a big factor. Players who had been great servants were on the way down but on top flight money they couldn’t justify.

Worth recalling too that despite the nostalgia for that era some of our gates in the top flight were truly awful, definitely remember a couple of 15,000 ones against the likes of Boro.

It wasn’t the glamour of the Premier League true, but the West Country public were pretty lukewarm in supporting the club then, that was also a big factor.

Gates dropped off a cliff as soon as we were relegated (& then relegated again). Someone I know who went every game in the top flight stopped & has only been back about 5 times in the 40 years since.

Thanks @GrahamC

Saves me typing it all out.

Supporter numbers were better than the recorded gates. The season tickets (approx 7,000 seats) were paid in one lump pre season but the  majority of fans paid cash on the day. This led to skimming cash by anyone involved from turnstile operators to Board members. 35,000 gate reduced by 8,000 to 27,000 - that's a lot of cash if the same percentage disappeared for 21 home games.

Also the 1970's was a bad time for employment with kids leaving school and no jobs available for them, just schemes. So plenty could not afford to go to all games.

[ashton_fan]

11 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Sorry, that’s wrong & looking it up it was actually far worse than I recalled;

78/79 season (these are Saturday games)

Boro home 12,300, Birmingham & QPR both 15,000. 

79/80 (relegation season)

Boro home 10,800, Bolton 13,000, WBA,15,000, Ipswich 14,000, Southampton 12,000.

There was a recession but our gates were pretty poor, the novelty of being in the top flight had worn off & people simply didn’t turn up.

I didn’t stop going either (& never have) but thousands clearly did.

You have to remember in those days they counted the actual numbers attending rather than the number of tickets sold as they do today, we used to average around 21K in those years which was a big increase over the crowds we got in Div 2, usually around the 10K mark although they were a bit higher in our promotion season.

[Red Shadow]

9 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Funny you should mention cleaning and Fred Wedlock in the same sentence, it gives me an opportunity to tell one of his pieces from his live show.

He used to work in advertising and one day was given the chance to come up with a name and a slogan for this super duper new cleaning agent. He wasn't successful but he did come up with one they would never use. He called it "BUGGER", which stood for 

Best Universal Grit Grime and Effluent Remover.

The slogan?

If Omo don't brighten it and Daz don't whiten it, BUGGER IT!

He followed it up with his mate suggesting it be called the Finest Universal Cleanser Known

[22A]

On 24/10/2022 at 21:38, gavlin said:

Interesting article in the Green Un from October 1975 City promotion year when City bank overdraft was at £200000 and their bank allowed them to stay at that level instead of selling players to halve the debt because they were near the top of the of the second division. 
This shows the club were already financially precarious. 
 

I remember at the time with promotion looming,fans were asked to buy next season's ST in March 75 and many fans did and Geoff Merrick & Tom Ritchie were not sold. Some fans wrote to the Green'un that this was a bad idea as City were now using next year's money to pay this year's bills.

in 1982; another ST scheme. The club needed money there & then so offered a TEN year ST for £500.00.