Fans Forum

[ralphindevon]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Any idea how often these are, annual or biannual?

Definitely would go to another if work etc allows for it.

If anyone at the club was reading this thread before it got split in two we’ll be lucky to see another. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'm working my way through the video.

Have just heard the excellent answers to the loans question. First we get an exceptionally transparent answer from Gould and Pearson. They explain in detail why we aren't going for PL loans, and this includes complaints about the cost of those loans and about the fact that in taking them we add value to that PL club's squad rather than our own.

The very next answer is Tins explaining how valuable it is to Bristol City to be able to loan a player to a L2 club in order for them to get 40 games of experience.

Is this not rank hypocrisy from us? How can we reconcile complaints about the PL's exploitative practices and in the next breath sing the praises of our own use of the system?

As interesting as it was to hear about Nige's hikes on the Mendips I'd have loved to be there to ask the above as a follow up.

Very much suspect any player that goes out to Lg2 / lower has their wages heavily subsidised by us, might even be the whole lot!  As for Lg1 - Moore this season, Bakinson last season, expect them to be paying a good slug of their wages for the privilege.

[ExiledAjax]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Very much suspect any player that goes out to Lg2 / lower has their wages heavily subsidised by us, might even be the whole lot!  As for Lg1 - Moore this season, Bakinson last season, expect them to be paying a good slug of their wages for the privilege.

L1 may well be the better example of us doing to clubs what we complain about the PL clubs doing to the Championship.

We're not loaning Moore to Shrewsbury for experience or through the benevolence of our hearts. We're loaning him because Pearson doesn't think he's good enough for us and doesn't want him hanging around the training ground being grumpy. I suspect that he's one of the higher paid players in Shrewsbury's dressing room and so there are likely a number of parallels between that loan and some of the PL to Championship loans.

9 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Why people look to knock the Club when I thought it was an extremely interesting , open insight into some things is beyond me

It's about questioning the Club's practices. That's what the Fans Forum is for, to allow fans to ask about and discuss the way the Club is doing things. I suspect there is some hypocrisy in the way we complain about but also use the loan system. I simply wonder whether Gould, Pearson and Tinnion would acknowledge that or not. 

Nige said he wants difficult questions. "How do you reconcile complaints about the PL loan requirements and our continued use of that same loan system" could be a difficult question. 

I think the Club would answer it well by the way, and expect it would add even more insight into what you rightly point out was an interesting set of answers.

[RedM]

9 hours ago, maxjak said:

Have to agree, we are an average side as regards pacey players at best, the way Nigel put it, you'd have thought we had the quickest players in the League?  Sorry NP, can't agree with you there.                                  

   It also concerned me that   Nigel approached it as almost a matter of pride, that we don't have a set piece specialist coach, I would say, Yep, that certainly shows?  As our set piece delivery from corners and free kicks is exceedingly average, and it is a weapon used very successfully by some sides, but at present, not us? 

Also Nigel's response when asked about playing three at the back, he stated that is because it suits our players, and we have no full backs?  Well our two wing backs must have some of the worst stats with regard to assist's, standard of crossing, and affecting the attacking aspect of our play in the league ?  So I would say that it doesn't suit Sykes and Dasilva, as can be shown by their respective records.  Even so, it was a greatly entertaining Fan's Forum

I was quite surprised by his responses too at times. I don't consider us particularly quick, certainly have noted opposition players being more lively at times! On our day we can pass it round, and round, and round, but as a whole team, not quick. 

He also had high praise for Sykes, saying he has been 'excellent' this season. Really, he has excelled? Not excellent from me yet I'm afraid, he looks like what he is.

[Bar BS3]

11 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'm working my way through the video.

Have just heard the excellent answers to the loans question. First we get an exceptionally transparent answer from Gould and Pearson. They explain in detail why we aren't going for PL loans, and this includes complaints about the cost of those loans and about the fact that in taking them we add value to that PL club's squad rather than our own.

The very next answer is Tins explaining how valuable it is to Bristol City to be able to loan a player to a L2 club in order for them to get 40 games of experience.

Is this not rank hypocrisy from us? How can we reconcile complaints about the PL's exploitative practices and in the next breath sing the praises of our own use of the system?

As interesting as it was to hear about Nige's hikes on the Mendips I'd have loved to be there to ask the above as a follow up.

You can't see the difference between a PL club charging fees of £100's thousands, compared to us (&other clubs) loaning out their younger player to get game & help find their true current level of progress..?! 

The 2 situations are world's apart - for both the clubs & the players best interests. 

It's not hypocrisy in any way, shape or form, if our objection is the ridiculous loan fees charged by PL clubs, when we are selecting loans for players best interests & probably not charging anything. 

[Bar BS3]

16 hours ago, RedM said:

One thing I don't think has been mentioned on here so far is last nights comment about pace. I can't remember if it was when they were discussing young players and progression or in response to why can't we handle physical teams. Something was said along the lines of it might not be anytime soon but if we do get the the premiership then we have the thing that all teams want/need, pace. 

I believe its a very certain path we are trying to steer towards, quick attacking players who can play their way to promotion rather than the more physical players who muscle themselves into the premiership and then find themselves struggling amongst the sides that play passing football.

Of course there is more than one way of getting promotion, but how many times have we seen newly promoted sides be almost totally dismantled and rebuilt immediately. i think our aim is to pick up young talent, keep them together for as long as possible and go up and stay up. It won't be an immediate thing, still lots of work to do as of course young players have a lot to learn. It sounds like there are 'layers' in place too, so there is always another player waiting to break through. Interesting I thought.

Which of our players do they regard as having notable pace...?

I can't think of a single one that you'd look at and think "my god - he's lightening quick" 

I fact, the only thing we ever have that looks like occasionally scaring other teams, is when Semenyo is on it & bullying, barging & rampaging his way through defenders - so I'd say that, in all to little volume, physical presence is all we have, one those rare occasions that AS is really on top form. 

In fact, which of NP's signings have had anything even close to notable pace...? 

[RedM]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Which of our players do they regard as having notable pace...?

I can't think of a single one that you'd look at and think "my god - he's lightening quick" 

I fact, the only thing we ever have that looks like occasionally scaring other teams, is when Semenyo is on it & bullying, barging & rampaging his way through defenders - so I'd say that, in all to little volume, physical presence is all we have, one those rare occasions that AS is really on top form. 

In fact, which of NP's signings have had anything even close to notable pace...? 

I'm with you,see my post 2 posts above.  I just thought I'd bring the subject up to see it it was just me left scratching my head, apparently not!

I can only think its something we are aiming for, quick and skillful who play rather than physical players who bully and intimidate? But no we aren't there yet, and I believe that Pearson was saying its a work in progress?

[ExiledAjax]

18 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You can't see the difference between a PL club charging fees of £100's thousands, compared to us (&other clubs) loaning out their younger player to get game & help find their true current level of progress..?! 

The 2 situations are world's apart - for both the clubs & the players best interests. 

It's not hypocrisy in any way, shape or form, if our objection is the ridiculous loan fees charged by PL clubs, when we are selecting loans for players best interests & probably not charging anything. 

We turnover £30m and complain about a fee of £250,000 and a player who earns £50,000 a week coming into our dressing room.

Some League 2 clubs turnover £3m, so to them a loan fee of £25,000 and a wage of £5,000 a week is just as crazy.

It's relative.

[Bar BS3]

7 minutes ago, RedM said:

I'm with you,see my post 2 posts above.  I just thought I'd bring the subject up to see it it was just me left scratching my head, apparently not!

I can only think its something we are aiming for, quick and skillful who play rather than physical players who bully and intimidate? But no we aren't there yet, and I believe that Pearson was saying its a work in progress?

Based on the players he's signed, it sounds like more contradictory rubbish from NP - his signings, if anything, have been notably slow/lacking pace..! 

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

We turnover £30m and complain about a fee of £250,000 and a player who earns £50,000 a week coming into our dressing room.

Some League 2 clubs turnover £3m, so to them a loan fee of £25,000 and a wage of £5,000 a week is just as crazy.

It's relative.

You think that L2 clubs get charged a fee by us..? I don't know, but I doubt it, if it's a loan that we think will aid the players progress. 

I also doubt, in that situation, that they contribute much towards the wages either. 

It's not relative - it's entirely different. 

 

PL players are sought after and command these stupid fees. 

We probably have to entice clubs to take some of our players. 

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

I was quite surprised by his responses too at times. I don't consider us particularly quick, certainly have noted opposition players being more lively at times! On our day we can pass it round, and round, and round, but as a whole team, not quick. 

He also had high praise for Sykes, saying he has been 'excellent' this season. Really, he has excelled? Not excellent from me yet I'm afraid, he looks like what he is.

Yep, Sykes started well..........but seems to have gone into his shell, and no longer runs at defenders, and seems to be lacking in confidence.  Excellent was how he started out, but now is decidedly average.  NP is a good bloke, but he is somewhat delusional on occasions?  ie.  Pacey players, who are the envy of everyone?  Have to play 3 at the back, because it suits our players?  Don't need a specialist set piece coach?  Reading's 2nd goal (He meant 1st?) could not have been stopped by any defence?  Hmmm?

[ExiledAjax]

44 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You think that L2 clubs get charged a fee by us..? I don't know, but I doubt it, if it's a loan that we think will aid the players progress. 

I also doubt, in that situation, that they contribute much towards the wages either. 

It's not relative - it's entirely different. 

 

PL players are sought after and command these stupid fees. 

We probably have to entice clubs to take some of our players. 

You believe, you doubt, @Lanterne Rouge also doubts, @RedM believes. None of you know. I don't know either, hence I'd have liked to ask that question.

It seems like you're presuming that we are a virtuous club that loans for good reasons. I don't presume that at all. I think we run our club as a business and that if we could squeeze £10k out of Grimsby we would. When we get promoted we'll probably charge £100,000 for a loan. That's what I believe.

The rights and wrongs of loan fees are complex but if we've charged Shrewsbury £25,000 to entertain Taylor Moore for a year (I've no evidence that we've done that btw) then there is a problem with complaining about that practice if we are also doing it. That's where there's possible hypocrisy the suspicion of which generates a question.

Edited October 29, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[RedM]

4 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Yep, Sykes started well..........but seems to have gone into his shell, and no longer runs at defenders, and seems to be lacking in confidence.  Excellent was how he started out, but now is decidedly average.  NP is a good bloke, but he is somewhat delusional on occasions?  ie.  Pacey players, who are the envy of everyone?  Have to play 3 at the back, because it suits our players?  Don't need a specialist set piece coach?  Reading's 2nd goal (He meant 1st?) could not have been stopped by any defence?  Hmmm?

I agree. But I also think we are intelligent enough to realise he is a club employee and his 'honesty' only goes so far before he points the finger at himself in such a public forum. Behind closed doors it's probably a very different matter. He is telling us what we want to hear, explaining restrictions and supporting his players, he won't be highlighting any failings he has.

[E.G.Red]

56 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You think that L2 clubs get charged a fee by us..? I don't know, but I doubt it, if it's a loan that we think will aid the players progress. 

I also doubt, in that situation, that they contribute much towards the wages either. 

It's not relative - it's entirely different. 

 

PL players are sought after and command these stupid fees. 

We probably have to entice clubs to take some of our players. 

Surely if we  charge a fee it has to be shown in our accounts? Also when we do loan players do we insist they play a certain  number of games? The PL clubs do, as we know to our cost ££.

Edited October 29, 2022 by E.G.Red

[Major Isewater]

12 hours ago, RedM said:

Regarding loaning our players to lower league clubs, maybe these clubs don't have academies so for them its a good way to get players they otherwise wouldn't attract. If they don't have academies then our players aren't blocking anyone's progress as such. 

Not to mention giving the loanee club players a chance to train and play with a footballer from a higher division thus improving them, something which has been forgotten in this debate. Did our players improve with the likes of Tammy Abraham and company ? 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

L1 may well be the better example of us doing to clubs what we complain about the PL clubs doing to the Championship.

We're not loaning Moore to Shrewsbury for experience or through the benevolence of our hearts. We're loaning him because Pearson doesn't think he's good enough for us and doesn't want him hanging around the training ground being grumpy. I suspect that he's one of the higher paid players in Shrewsbury's dressing room and so there are likely a number of parallels between that loan and some of the PL to Championship loans.

I’m agreeing with you in some respects, we run a two tier system….

1. for those players who need league experience, the young’uns (Towler, etc)
2. Those who Nige doesn’t want / need around (Moore, etc)

I very much suspect that we aren’t charging Wimbledon hardly anything at all, but we are to Shrewsbury, because Moore has x number of games at good levels.

What the PL clubs are doing is asking for crazy money for kids who’ve yet to play a senior game.

Heres the oldest loan players in the Champ (not all from PL clubs).

I think the loan system is wrong for players aged 23+…and that’s why clubs hoard players.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

Which of our players do they regard as having notable pace...?

I can't think of a single one that you'd look at and think "my god - he's lightening quick" 

I fact, the only thing we ever have that looks like occasionally scaring other teams, is when Semenyo is on it & bullying, barging & rampaging his way through defenders - so I'd say that, in all to little volume, physical presence is all we have, one those rare occasions that AS is really on top form. 

In fact, which of NP's signings have had anything even close to notable pace...? 

I’d say Semenyo, Conway, Weimann, Wilson & possibly Sykes, though he strikes me as a bit more of a marathon than a sprint man.

Bell too, though he’s rarely featured.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

L1 may well be the better example of us doing to clubs what we complain about the PL clubs doing to the Championship.

We're not loaning Moore to Shrewsbury for experience or through the benevolence of our hearts. We're loaning him because Pearson doesn't think he's good enough for us and doesn't want him hanging around the training ground being grumpy. I suspect that he's one of the higher paid players in Shrewsbury's dressing room and so there are likely a number of parallels between that loan and some of the PL to Championship loans.

Absolutely this out of sight out of mind with some of the players. Moore was a massive gamble and he's been decent and terrible in equal measure. 

[chinapig]

44 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

You believe, you doubt, @Lanterne Rouge also doubts, @RedM believes. None of you know. I don't know either, hence I'd have liked to ask that question.

It seems like you're presuming that we are a virtuous club that loans for good reasons. I don't presume that at all. I think we run our club as a business and that if we could squeeze £10k out of Grimsby we would. When we get promoted we'll probably charge £100,000 for a loan. That's what I believe.

The rights and wrongs of loan fees are complex but if we've charged Shrewsbury £25,000 to entertain Taylor Moore for a year (I've no evidence that we've done that btw) then there is a problem with complaining about that practice if we are also doing it. That's where there's possible hypocrisy the suspicion of which generates a question.

As you say, we don't know what our practice is but I do think we have seen a change of policy, as Tinnion was implying.

Under the previous regime it did seem to be more a case of loaning players out to raise revenue. I remember Brian saying Pring was ready for the first team squad at which point he was promptly loaned to Pompey. Not his decision I suspect.

It was also reported on the one hand that SL insisted that Semenyo be brought back from loan rather than signing yet another player and on the other hand that LJ wanted to bring Walsh back from loan but Ashton vetoed it.

So a different policy and one on which the key people were far from united.

Whether or not we charge fees for loans it's clear from what Brian said that player development is the priority and that the best youngsters will stay here with the odd exception who would benefit from the physical demands of men's football.

As to PL clubs, the policy of some of the big ones had been to harvest young players for the express purpose of perpetual loans to raise money though there have been rule changes to restrict that somewhat. It's pretty clear that is not our approach.

[Major Isewater]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m agreeing with you in some respects, we run a two tier system….

1. for those players who need league experience, the young’uns (Towler, etc)
2. Those who Nige doesn’t want / need around (Moore, etc)

I very much suspect that we aren’t charging Wimbledon hardly anything at all, but we are to Shrewsbury, because Moore has x number of games at good levels.

What the PL clubs are doing is asking for crazy money for kids who’ve yet to play a senior game.

Heres the oldest loan players in the Champ (not all from PL clubs).

I think the loan system is wrong for players aged 23+…and that’s why clubs hoard players.

They certainly are old , C Clark being the youngest at 89. 
Prem clubs get away with it all the ruddy time. 

[Northern Red]

This is no slight on Nahki Wells, but Tinnion replacing him produced far more interesting questions and answers than we would likely have got if he or another player had been there.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Under the previous regime it did seem to be more a case of loaning players out to raise revenue. I remember Brian saying Pring was ready for the first team squad at which point he was promptly loaned to Pompey. Not his decision I suspect.

Tins wasn’t too enthused with his players not getting a chance in the first team, let’s say!!!

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Tins wasn’t too enthused with his players not getting a chance in the first team, let’s say!!!

He made that pretty clear at the forum

Out on loan because they weren’t getting games here

We now have a pathway instead of talking bullshit