The Chris Martin conundrum

[Davefevs]

Chris Martin comes on, we lose our momentum, or…

….The momentum had already been lost 10-15 minutes earlier, because of Sheffield United’s play acting, time wasting, aided by a referee…as they hung into their 1-0 lead.

Stop trying to find a scapegoat in a red shirt every week, least of all a bloke who only came on in the 80th minute of which there was only about 2 mins of ball in play in the 19.35 mins that followed.

Some may have missed that he did win a couple of headers, got in at the back post and had a shot in that period.

[brad blit]

I dont have an issue with Martin coming on to try and change tactics in a game, its not like we have any attacking midfielders (except injured Benayrous) or wingers that can effect the game in a different way. Hes good with his back to the goal and shielding off players with his strength, bringing others into the game - what i dont get is the fascination of having 4 strikers on the pitch, and lugging aimless high balls towards him, bypassing the midfield and losing any attacking impetus we might have.

Like others have said, there always has to be one Scape Goat at the club............

[Red-Robbo]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Chris Martin comes on, we lose our momentum, or…

….The momentum had already been lost 10-15 minutes earlier, because of Sheffield United’s play acting, time wasting, aided by a referee…as they hung into their 1-0 lead.

Stop trying to find a scapegoat in a red shirt every week, least of all a bloke who only came on in the 80th minute of which there was only about 2 mins of ball in play in the 19.35 mins that followed.

Some may have missed that he did win a couple of headers, got in at the back post and had a shot in that period.

 

For once I'm going to have to disagree with you. We looked a blunt blade once CM was on and Wells off. We were much more of a threat with the Wells-Conway combo on and the only way I'd personally have considered Martin as the magic formula to break the deadlock was if one of those 2 was injured or carrying a yellow.

It isn't about finding a scapegoat. It's about identifying why we can't get back into games against negative teams. 

[Super]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

For once I'm going to have to disagree with you. We looked a blunt blade once CM was on and Wells off. We were much more of a threat with the Wells-Conway combo on and the only way I'd personally have considered Martin as the magic formula to break the deadlock was if one of those 2 was injured or carrying a yellow.

It isn't about finding a scapegoat. It's about identifying why we can't get back into games against negative teams. 

Some sense at last. 

[old_eastender]

10 hours ago, AshtonRobin21 said:

I'm sorry to do it, but far too many times we've seen Chris Martin brought on when chasing a game. 

It's never worked, and in all honesty, the opposition probably breathe a sigh of relief when they see it happening. 

What's the point in bringing on Semenyo to play in the space, to then later bring on Martin to.... Limit the space!!!

We went from playing quick, short passes, great movement and causing them lots of problems, to suddenly hoofing it long against a defence that love to head it. 

Alex Scott was incredible, he had space to run into, but that changed when Martin was brought on. Suddenly he wasn't getting the ball to feet, and we started playing it long. 

Equally, the decision to put Weimann to Right wing-back was baffling. Again seen far too many times. Sykes was causing them issues by trying to get to the byline, Weimann didn't attempt it once. 

A really good performance, but the tactical changes finished us tonight. 

We were dominating the ball, causing them lots of problems. A strike force of Wells, Conway and Semenyo that was making them nervous. 2 of the 3 centre backs were booked for bringing down Semenyo, surely that indicates its working and they would have to be careful not to foul him again. 

Sorry to rant, but it completely drained the momentum we had built up. 

Spot on.

[Sheltons Army]

17 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Spot on.

Still , at least it gives you to finish off your whining with aplomb for the last 15 mins , directed at your favourite scapegoat , though difficult to keep up as you have quite a few

All from your armchair

[ralphindevon]

When he eventually leaves I’ll certainly look back at his time and think what a good signing he was. Bucket loads of hard graft, knocks as well as goals and assists. An unsung hero at times.

However I think he’s struggling with his role in the squad at the moment, certainly coming on to chase games doesn’t seem to have worked that well, it’s a difficult role that doesn’t seem to suit him. Maybe better when we’re trying to see a game out? 

[ralphindevon]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

For once I'm going to have to disagree with you. We looked a blunt blade once CM was on and Wells off. We were much more of a threat with the Wells-Conway combo on and the only way I'd personally have considered Martin as the magic formula to break the deadlock was if one of those 2 was injured or carrying a yellow.

It isn't about finding a scapegoat. It's about identifying why we can't get back into games against negative teams. 

Yeah agree, maybe Dave was aiming his comments at the unhelpful posts that just slag off without offering anything constructive.

But after a game like that it’s fair enough to look for a reason why we’ve turned that performance into a defeat. Of course it certainly isn’t all on Martin by a long shot but I don’t think it’s unfair to mention him. 

[BTRFTG]

Self-inflicted 'sending off'. Martin coming on reduces us to ten men. Actually, make that nine for not only does he fail to add anything positive he adds negative impact. Saturday we had that final free kick. Great position to load the box. Martin, wholly bested by anybody over the age of 10, pushes his marker over directly in front of the referee.

To those who argue he might add something in defence, he doesn't, as he's shown multiple times this year. Unable to win anything in the air either half. Last night in the 'argued corner incident' his movement and positioning near post questioned why the hell was he on the pitch? He was never going to get to the ball first, even in front of his opponent. Yet again he missed the ball altogether, something in which he appears to be a specialist.

As for scapegoating and his shot on target - are you certain the ball had sufficient momentum to have crossed the line had the keeper left it? In that breeze likely the ball might have been blown back to him given the amount of force he managed to get behind it.

[Clutton Caveman]

12 hours ago, nickolas said:

There is no conundrum. Hes finished and we are now wasting a wage on him!

I think if NP knew how good the other forwards would be this year, he would not have got another year. Hindsight is a wonderful think. On the positive side, for his wage we should be able to attract a decent out of contract player next year.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

For once I'm going to have to disagree with you. We looked a blunt blade once CM was on and Wells off. We were much more of a threat with the Wells-Conway combo on and the only way I'd personally have considered Martin as the magic formula to break the deadlock was if one of those 2 was injured or carrying a yellow.

It isn't about finding a scapegoat. It's about identifying why we can't get back into games against negative teams. 

I watched back the 19:55 post-Martin sub earlier, of which only 8:11 was ball in play!  I’m not saying he played well, but I don’t think it changed any momentum.  Just watched the preceding 12 mins for comparison.  Momentum had already been sucked out of the game.

Heres what happened from the point Tanner hit the post 67:50.

70:45 Foderingham down injured, trainer on, play resumed 72:15 (1:30 lost)

73:35 City passing move from the back. Ball into Wells coming short, mis-controls, but ball ricochets to a Semenyo in space right hand corner of box, chips to Conway, but it’s too far ahead of him, keeper claims.

75:10 Wells hopeful 25 yarder from right side, straight at defender who heads away.  This was on the counter after N’Diaye had broken through the middle but Pring got back, and N’Diaye left the ball behind him.

76:10 Long kick from O’Leary into Dolman touch.

76:15 Basham goes down, trainer on, subbed for Clark. Walks off wrong side of pitch!  Ball back in play 77:50 (1:35 lost)

79:15 Williams on

79:41 Martins on

We had one decent(ish) passing move in that period.  The Tanner shot was the last bit of real pressure after a good move.

Post the sub, we probably did a tad better, Weimann shot, Martin shot, a couple of half-decent crosses, a couple of crap ones too.

FWIW I would’ve probably kept Wells on (thought he had a decent game), but I see why chasing a game we thought mixing it up a bit was a reasonable option.  The delivery from deep, O’Leary and Vyner in particular was too short, meaning whoever it was aimed at, not, just Martin, was trying to flick on whilst moving towards the ball.

 

[GrahamC]

I’d have still brought him on myself but would have taken off Conway, who had run himself into the ground by then & often leads our press, rather than Wells, who I thought was playing well & still looked lively.

All about opinions, though isn’t it?

[Red-Robbo]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I watched back the 19:55 post-Martin sub earlier, of which only 8:11 was ball in play!  I’m not saying he played well, but I don’t think it changed any momentum.  Just watched the preceding 12 mins for comparison.  Momentum had already been sucked out of the game.

Heres what happened from the point Tanner hit the post 67:50.

70:45 Foderingham down injured, trainer on, play resumed 72:15 (1:30 lost)

73:35 City passing move from the back. Ball into Wells coming short, mis-controls, but ball ricochets to a Semenyo in space right hand corner of box, chips to Conway, but it’s too far ahead of him, keeper claims.

75:10 Wells hopeful 25 yarder from right side, straight at defender who heads away.  This was on the counter after N’Diaye had broken through the middle but Pring got back, and N’Diaye left the ball behind him.

76:10 Long kick from O’Leary into Dolman touch.

76:15 Basham goes down, trainer on, subbed for Clark. Walks off wrong side of pitch!  Ball back in play 77:50 (1:35 lost)

79:15 Williams on

79:41 Martins on

We had one decent(ish) passing move in that period.  The Tanner shot was the last bit of real pressure after a good move.

Post the sub, we probably did a tad better, Weimann shot, Martin shot, a couple of half-decent crosses, a couple of crap ones too.

FWIW I would’ve probably kept Wells on (thought he had a decent game), but I see why chasing a game we thought mixing it up a bit was a reasonable option.  The delivery from deep, O’Leary and Vyner in particular was too short, meaning whoever it was aimed at, not, just Martin, was trying to flick on whilst moving towards the ball.

 

 

None of those shots looked likely and Martin also wasted a very decent opportunity when he was to the left of their box.

I'm certainly not saying his introduction and 28-minute in play is why we lost, but it's about more than just that one game.  His only goal this term came on 6th August and since then he's played over 460 minutes of football without getting a sniff.

Some players are "super subs" and can come on change the entire direction of the game. Nothing I've seen suggests that Martin is able to do that this season. By his standards, he is out-of-form.

As I say, I'd have left Martin on the bench last night, and depending on who's available, I might not even grant him a bench berth if Conway, Wells, Weimann and Semenyo are all available.  

[Davefevs]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

None of those shots looked likely and Martin also wasted a very decent opportunity when he was to the left of their box.

I'm certainly not saying his introduction and 28-minute in play is why we lost, but it's about more than just that one game.  His only goal this term came on 6th August and since then he's played over 460 minutes of football without getting a sniff.

Some players are "super subs" and can come on change the entire direction of the game. Nothing I've seen suggests that Martin is able to do that this season. By his standards, he is out-of-form.

As I say, I'd have left Martin on the bench last night, and depending on who's available, I might not even grant him a bench berth if Conway, Wells, Weimann and Semenyo are all available.  

No, I know you’re not….it’s the others in here that do.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Davefevs said:

No, I know you’re not….it’s the others in here that do.

 

Apart from in extreme circumstances, losing a 90-minute game of football is never one player's "fault" is it.

Even if some defender/keeper committed a clanger, where was the midfield cover? Why hadn't the forwards taken their chances?

For me, Martin's a "club in the bag" as good old Gary J would say: Just not necessarily a club I'd employ at present unless there were no other options. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

Apart from in extreme circumstances, losing a 90-minute game of football is never one player's "fault" is it.

Even if some defender/keeper committed a clanger, where was the midfield cover? Why hadn't the forwards taken their chances?

For me, Martin's a "club in the bag" as good old Gary J would say: Just not necessarily a club I'd employ at present unless there were no other options. 

I’d rather he started…and for those games I’d pair him with Semenyo.

[Bazooka Joe]

4 hours ago, brad blit said:

I dont have an issue with Martin coming on to try and change tactics in a game, its not like we have any attacking midfielders (except injured Benayrous) or wingers that can effect the game in a different way. Hes good with his back to the goal and shielding off players with his strength, bringing others into the game - what i dont get is the fascination of having 4 strikers on the pitch, and lugging aimless high balls towards him, bypassing the midfield and losing any attacking impetus we might have.

Like others have said, there always has to be one Scape Goat at the club............

Sadly, over the years, competition for this inglorious accolade has been fierce.

Martin seems to be a clear front-runner this year.

[AshtonRobin21]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, I know you’re not….it’s the others in here that do.

I'll throw my hat into the ring here. 

I fully respect your opinion mate, and fwiw I think Martin has proved useful during his time here. However, he is now being used in a completely different role, and in my opinion, it doesn't work. 

The player Martin was last season, showed his true value, but we were also playing a system that suited his abilities. He was the decoy if you will, for Weimann and Semenyo to use the space he created in behind. 

This season, that's not the case. I'm not basing my original post off of one game alone, it's happened on a few occasions. I felt we were the stronger team and looked destined for an equaliser. 

But the introduction of Martin (and moving Weimann to RWB) just seemed to have attacking players on the pitch for the sake of it, which in turn, reduced the space in the attacking third. 

Now if Sykes were to remain on the pitch and we tried to cross into the box, then I could see the logic. But he was on the edge of the box trying to win flick ons with no space in behind. 

I've said it on multiple occasions, but there are two ways to use Martin effectively. 

1. Start him, but that won't happen because others are in much better form this season. Conway and Wells deserve their place in the starting 11. 

2. Bring him on to defend a lead. Defending from the front so to speak. 

It's not personal against Martin, but it causes a huge change to our style of play when bringing him on to chase an equaliser. 

[Super]

When was the last time he was brought on and he made a difference? (In a positive way)

[Sheltons Army]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’d rather he started…and for those games I’d pair him with Semenyo.

Martin looks to me Dave to need regular game time , for a match fitness thing as much as anything 

Difficult with the thinness of the squad,  but I think he’d benefit from some U21 game time in and out to get him game minutes 

Thats difficult in a 3 game week , with few alternatives 

[Cityboy1954]

15 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

For once I'm going to have to disagree with you. We looked a blunt blade once CM was on and Wells off. We were much more of a threat with the Wells-Conway combo on and the only way I'd personally have considered Martin as the magic formula to break the deadlock was if one of those 2 was injured or carrying a yellow.

It isn't about finding a scapegoat. It's about identifying why we can't get back into games against negative teams. 

Good shout hes past his best sheffield must have been rubbing their hands when he came on he doesnt get off the floor unfortunately anymore.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

I wonder if Martin is off in Jan. Must be on decent wage. And we need to free up wages for needed new players. But at present NP feels he needs him in his match squad dynamic. Not sure. I feel like many here his substitute use just does not improve our goal scoring chances. But he is important in his defensive duties. 

It's an odd one. Is NP seeing something we are all missing ?

[dunsteral]

i listened to the radio berkshire commentary of our game at reading via hesgoal.

When Chris Martin came on the 2 commentators said "oh he wont cause us any problems he is too slow" 1 of them then said

do you remember when we had him on loan he was awful.

I f radio commentators have that opinion why do we persevere with bringing him on, a tactic which as far as i am aware

has not made 1 iota of difference in any game we have used it.

i think it is time to move on from him and stick with Sam Bell who would gain from the playing time.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

I wonder if Martin is off in Jan. Must be on decent wage. And we need to free up wages for needed new players. But at present NP feels he needs him in his match squad dynamic. Not sure. I feel like many here his substitute use just does not improve our goal scoring chances. But he is important in his defensive duties. 

It's an odd one. Is NP seeing something we are all missing ?

Nobody is gonna take Chris Martin off our hands and pay him his current wage….it would cost us money to “mutually terminate” his contract.  Even if we loaned him, nobody is gonna pay 100% of his wages, so it’s not gonna free much up, if anything at all.  His contract renewal last season was because his appearances triggered an extra year.  I’m guessing he won’t hit that trigger this season, and it will be “Viva La Vida” for Chris Martin in the summer.

1 hour ago, dunsteral said:

i listened to the radio berkshire commentary of our game at reading via hesgoal.

When Chris Martin came on the 2 commentators said "oh he wont cause us any problems he is too slow" 1 of them then said

do you remember when we had him on loan he was awful.

I f radio commentators have that opinion why do we persevere with bringing him on, a tactic which as far as i am aware

has not made 1 iota of difference in any game we have used it.

i think it is time to move on from him and stick with Sam Bell who would gain from the playing time.

Because those radio commentators have little appreciation of what Chris Martin can and has done over his career, because they saw him for 10 games in 17/18 season, in what was a struggling Reading team.  You only have to look back to last season and 19/20 season to see he can be effective at this level.  He’s definitely over his peak, he’s 34 tomorrow, but hugely disrespectful for a guy who’s played well over 400 games at this level and scored over 100 goals.

It might well be time to move on, but 6 months ago he was part of one of the best forward lines in this division, and he played a big part of that WSM.