Penalties…what can we do?

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

No one will convince me either of them isn’t pens. I’m at the far end of the dolman & it was clear he’s pulling wells shirt. That’s a foul anywhere on the pitch , including in the box . 

No he doesn’t . It continues into the box which means it’s a penalty 

Even with the advantage of slow motion replays, which the ref doesn’t have, not convinced that’s what I see. I’m not suggesting there was no shirt pulling. Just that the defender stopped when he got to the box

Just now, harrys said:

I was far end of Lansdown and you can see Wells having his shirt tugged, since when is that not a free kick ?

As above

[Davefevs]

God, I didn’t really see the high foot one…that’s a pen imho

As for the other one, he’s initiated contact by running into the line of the defender, and I think that works against him as the play moves on.  Whether it should or not, I don’t know.

[Midred]

40 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Are you pissed ? 

No, just contrary!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Was in corner Lansdown next to South stand and have to admit first was not sure but declined seemed clear pen to me but was far end if pitch from where  sat. Pity we deserved a win today . Decent performance I felt 

[chinapig]

I posted on the matchday thread that we should do a detailed analysis (video and statistical), send it to PGMOL and ask for a face to face meeting.

This gives them a chance to show how such a staggeringly improbable anomaly over an extended period might be explained. Their reply would at least be illuminating.

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

To my eye there's a second tug after they cross the 12 yard line. Yes it starts outside the box but Wells is clearly being impeded in the box.

What happens in the box is more like what happened at Middlesbrough last week. You could make a case for it, but not a strong one. VAR wouldn’t have seen enough of a ‘clear error’ to over rule it. In my view.

There’s no doubt we’re hard done by overall; just seems like we can get any number of those and on the law of averages we should get some go in our favour but they never do. But they weren’t as blatant as some last season; Scott as above, O’Dowda at Coventry just two examples that really were stonewall.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

What happens in the box is more like what happened at Middlesbrough last week. You could make a case for it, but not a strong one. VAR wouldn’t have seen enough of a ‘clear error’ to over rule it. In my view.

There’s no doubt we’re hard done by overall; just seems like we can get any number of those and on the law of averages we should get some go in our favour but they never do. But they weren’t as blatant as some last season; Scott as above, O’Dowda at Coventry just two examples that really were stonewall.

Add the high foot one to the list of stonewallers then. The Laws are so clear.

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

God, I didn’t really see the high foot one…that’s a pen imho

As for the other one, he’s initiated contact by running into the line of the defender, and I think that works against him as the play moves on.  Whether it should or not, I don’t know.

Running across the defender's line is not simulation so I don't see why it would be a factor. Indeed you see Premier League attackers do it often, leading to free kicks and penalties.

[Midred]

Would be interesting if there were recordings of the play leading up to the penalties awarded against us and ask for the PGMOL to comment?

[Loosey Boy]

Spoke with Nige and Curtis in the car park after the game - their view was that the “tug” on NW would have been harsh but that the “high boot” one was a definite penalty 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Running across the defender's line is not simulation so I don't see why it would be a factor. Indeed you see Premier League attackers do it often, leading to free kicks and penalties.

I agree, just saying that I think that played into the ref’s thinking. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Davefevs

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Add the high foot one to the list of stonewallers then. The Laws are so clear.

That one’s a lot closer, I’d agree. But the judgement of the referee (“in a manner considered by the referee”) becomes more of a factor in relation to high feet than it does for other offences. 

The ref might not have seen it as too high (big defender, small attacker), dangerous, whatever. 

As I’ve said, I’m not arguing it wasn’t a pen, and I’m being devils advocate to a degree. I just don’t think it was nailed on. 

[RedRaw]

So is ‘nice’ bristol city going to send video clips and speak to EFL about what appears to be blatant mistakes by referees or are we just going to carry on moaning that we are hard done by…..not once during those two incidents were city players in the face of the referee. Time to start being ****s and being a bit more street wise

[Midred]

2 minutes ago, RedRaw said:

So is ‘nice’ bristol city going to send video clips and speak to EFL about what appears to be blatant mistakes by referees or are we just going to carry on moaning that we are hard done by…..not once during those two incidents were city players in the face of the referee. Time to start being ****s and being a bit more street wise

Weimann used to do every match and get booked for it!

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

That one’s a lot closer, I’d agree. But the judgement of the referee (“in a manner considered by the referee”) becomes more of a factor in relation to high feet than it does for other offences. 

The ref might not have seen it as too high (big defender, small attacker), dangerous, whatever. 

As I’ve said, I’m not arguing it wasn’t a pen, and I’m being devils advocate to a degree. I just don’t think it was nailed on. 

But it merely has to considered careless, which is shown "when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution."

IMO sticking studs up at head height clearly demonstrates a lack of consideration for the integrity of Wells' skull.

I appreciate a devil's advocate, I really do, but on the high foot I really don't think there's room for debate.

Edited November 12, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Super]

19 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Spoke with Nige and Curtis in the car park after the game - their view was that the “tug” on NW would have been harsh but that the “high boot” one was a definite penalty 

Which is how most saw it.

[sh1t_ref_again]

not sure what we have to do to get a pen

[Curr Avon]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

 

VAR would ask the referee to review both incidents on a pitch side monitor, resulting in two penalties.

But we don't have VAR in the Championship, just tough shit from fallible crap officials. 

 

[mozo]

9 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

VAR would ask the referee to review both incidents on a pitch side monitor, resulting in two penalties.

But we don't have VAR in the Championship, just tough shit from fallible crap officials. 

 

Exactly. Both pens for me and Watford got away with a lot of rough stuff today.

[italian dave]

20 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

But it merely has to considered careless, which is shown "when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution."

IMO sticking studs up at head height clearly demonstrates a lack of consideration for the integrity of Wells' skull.

I appreciate a devil's advocate, I really do, but on the high foot I really don't think there's room for debate.

OK, no more devils advocate!

If those had been given against us I’d have felt very aggrieved about the first one, but not the second. 

And when you think back on some of the ones that have been given against us. One at Barnsley a couple of years ago springs to mind. Against O’Dowda in the 90th minute. The offence was as edge of the box as the shirt tugging on the first todays. And a similar challenge to the second one today, except that O’Dowda was challenging with his head, not his foot! 

If it’s true that these things balance themselves out, we’d better hope we have a decent penalty taker in the side because we’re going to get a hatful of them sometime soon. 

[BCFCTom]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Has anyone got a clip of the incident today?

I think, probably because we have waited so long, we sometimes see borderline calls erroneously as bad decisions. 
 

However, and considering I viewed it from Dolman centre so some way away, that just looked like a penalty in real time.

The only thing I can think is that the ref was very keen to allow physicality in the game, and Tbf I think that made for a good spectacle and he generally reffed it well. However, he got that one the wrong side of the line for me.

2 shouts and here’s the links, speechless the high boot wasn’t given.. studs up to the side of the head.. 

[grifty]

I don't think the first one was a pen, but the high foot one was.

[Dr Balls]

Until a player is actually so badly injured by foul play in the penalty area that no referee could ignore it (I actually said life-threatening during the match) then we won’t get a penalty. It is beyond an anomaly, because we have seen such soft ones given against us, and we know from the Hull game alone and the PGMOL apology that we should have had at least one penalty awarded but didn’t, and the one against shouldn’t have been awarded. That sums up the last 2-3 years of bad officiating that we have suffered.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, bbew said:

Not sure if is just me, but I can understand each decision not being given (since last penalty).  I can't remember us having a stonewall penalty and today neither looked like pens to me.  The south sand seemed to appeal for one at the Atyeo end, but fans closer didn't appeal at all

Not the one against QPR or the one against Forest? Honestly?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

I think we’re never going to get a penalty again. 
We need to start influencing these referees. They’re probably not aware that we haven’t had one since 1947. 
 

We need to laminate this photo and stick it on all 4 walls of the officials changing room. We should also have Jason Euell have a laminated copy and show it to the 4th official every time we have a shout turned down. 
They need to know. 
 

This pic was based on stats in August. I’m sure our line is off the chart now…..

 

Good point well made...August.

Another good stat, we were awarded the least penalties in a given period per big chance created of numerous top 2 division sides in Eurioe.

However the graph was mentioned mid Jan 2022- wonder about now??

[steviestevieneville]

48 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

VAR would ask the referee to review both incidents on a pitch side monitor, resulting in two penalties.

But we don't have VAR in the Championship, just tough shit from fallible crap officials. 

 

Not sure that would make a difference . They still make comical errors after watching back for two minutes. 

[redsquirrel]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I agree, just saying that I think that played into the ref’s thinking. 

following your other thread Dave, why dont you just rename opposition penalty areas WTAF boxes

[Supersonic Robin]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Has anyone got a clip of the incident today?

I think, probably because we have waited so long, we sometimes see borderline calls erroneously as bad decisions. 
 

However, and considering I viewed it from Dolman centre so some way away, that just looked like a penalty in real time.

The only thing I can think is that the ref was very keen to allow physicality in the game, and Tbf I think that made for a good spectacle and he generally reffed it well. However, he got that one the wrong side of the line for me.

Agree, there's probably an element of this at play, but even the number of borderline "50-50's" that go against us is mental. By definition, about half of them should go our way. Approximately 0 across the last 2-3 years doesn't sound like half!

[Maltshoveller]

Talking of pens

I see James Tavernier scored his 47th !!!! pen for Rangers today

Thats  47 in 250 odd games over 7 seasons

Big clubs with big crowds get more pens Simple Refs bottle it

[Supersonic Robin]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

I posted on the matchday thread that we should do a detailed analysis (video and statistical), send it to PGMOL and ask for a face to face meeting.

This gives them a chance to show how such a staggeringly improbable anomaly over an extended period might be explained. Their reply would at least be illuminating.

I've had similar thoughts. I'm not necessarily suggesting there is a conspiracy against us, but "bad luck" isn't a sufficient explanation anymore. Our penalty situation is so improbable that it borders on impossible.

It really is at a point where I feel action is required. I think your suggestion is a very reasonable one. At the very least, I'd like us to try and drum up a bit of noise about it, such that every Championship referee looks at a fixture for us and goes "Ah, Bristol City, that's the club that's constantly putting pressure on us about the lack of penalties we award them".