World Cup 2022 thread (football only)

[BobbyC]

40 minutes ago, Harry said:

And how come the deciding factor was going to come down to yellow cards! 
Why not make it something more positive, like shots on target? Surely that’s a better way of deciding which team was the better and more positive one, rather than something that could have been down to a refs interpretation.
Mexico had 16 shots on target vs Poland’s 5. 
5 on target in 3 games! Who do they think they are - the 2020 version of Bristol City??!! 

We always played corners in 5/6 aside tournaments..  basically the more attacking team went through.

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

senegal v france will be a good game

I was going to suggest that would have to be in a different competition, as Senegal play England on Sunday evening.

Luckily, I refrained prior to pushing 'Submit Reply' .

[FNQ]

9 hours ago, Reigate Red said:

Bailey Wright comes on - inevitable city reference by JP

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/i-hope-she-s-still-with-us-socceroo-dedicates-win-to-ill-mother-in-law-20221201-p5c2rc.html

The win was especially special for Bailey.. thoughts with him and his family.

[sticks 1969]

Just a short break over there

great grounds and very very well organised every one very helpful 

Good to see so many fans from different countries in one area due to size and no trouble (£12 a pint) properly stops that

going for a drink is easy but takes some planning IE booking a time slot then going through a mini security check to get into places

very good wales support over there who just seemed happy to be there after not doing so for so long 

you do get a bit of stick being from Bristol but all good natured 

could have quite happy stayed longer and if money was not a problem a very good world cup

great place but just some medieval rules on various things but that goes into another topic 

the tube system ,shopping malls ect .. mind blowing 

don’t believe every thing you read in the paper and on tv ……

 

 

 

[Port Said Red]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I can see some sizeable upsets in this competition so wouldn't assume anything at the moment. 

How much of that do you think we can put down to the timing of the competition and it being so condensed? 

I think there is one advantage for the players that are in European leagues being less tired and close to peak fitness.

The downside I can see for the coaches is lack of prep time and also the time to build/rebuild a team ethic into their squad. For once, England has a bit of an advantage here, usually we are critical of the fact we have so few players gaining knowledge in other countries, but in these circumstances it should (and appears to) be easier to maintain that "Team England" club feel in the squad. 

Going off topic slightly, in all the criticism of Southgate, that building of a team mentality is something that gets overlooked, I would say that it's one of the biggest differences between his squads and the so called "golden generation" period.

[Redtucks]

10 hours ago, italian dave said:

It’s simply making the point. Without making up the contact. Just making the point that there’s been contact. Most players do it. 

I know they do, but it doesn't make it right.

In such situations there is no reason why the ref can't give a penalty and then book them for simulation!!!

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Redtucks

[Sir Geoff]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

If that was a penalty for the keepers late contact on Messi, then surely the same rule applies at the very end of the match, when the keeper slid in and took the Argentine player out after he’d shot. 
Was it purely the fact that the shot was on target that it’s not deemed a penalty (ie, the chance was given and not taken?) 

You're over complicating it. Had Messi taken the shot then VAR would have given it.

[frenchred]

11 hours ago, italian dave said:

It’s simply making the point. Without making up the contact. Just making the point that there’s been contact. Most players do it. 

It's cheating

[frenchred]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

If that was a penalty for the keepers late contact on Messi, then surely the same rule applies at the very end of the match, when the keeper slid in and took the Argentine player out after he’d shot. 
Was it purely the fact that the shot was on target that it’s not deemed a penalty (ie, the chance was given and not taken?) 

It wasn't FIFA's golden boy

[Super]

12 minutes ago, frenchred said:

It's cheating

Alex Scott cheats every game then. It's part of the game these days.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Super

[Northern Red]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

How much of that do you think we can put down to the timing of the competition and it being so condensed? 

I think there is one advantage for the players that are in European leagues being less tired and close to peak fitness.

The downside I can see for the coaches is lack of prep time and also the time to build/rebuild a team ethic into their squad. For once, England has a bit of an advantage here, usually we are critical of the fact we have so few players gaining knowledge in other countries, but in these circumstances it should (and appears to) be easier to maintain that "Team England" club feel in the squad. 

Going off topic slightly, in all the criticism of Southgate, that building of a team mentality is something that gets overlooked, I would say that it's one of the biggest differences between his squads and the so called "golden generation" period.

I'd say it's the biggest difference, without hesitation. It's clear that there's mutual respect and trust between the manager and players, and the squad is far more united than previous England teams.

[Bristol Rob]

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/bbc-commentator-claims-the-lusail-iconic-stadium-is-right-up-there-with-ashton-gate

probably already been posted.

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Redtucks said:

I know they do, but it doesn't make it right.

In such situations there is no reason why the ref can't give a penalty and then book them for simulation!!!

 

 

That's really the point I'm trying to make though: if there's no contact at all then, yes, it's simulation and it's cheating. But as soon as there's contact you're into far more subjective judgements about the hows, whens, wheres of the contact and it's so much harder to judge the extent to which its simulation and the extent to which its not.

I'm not saying that he didn't make a meal of it - but there's a difference between simulation and taking an extra roll from your momentum and from holding your face when you've genuinely been hit there. It's what most players do to make sure the officials know there's been contact - and if it hadn't been Messi last night then no-one would have even passed comment. And comments like "cheating Argie" (which is where this started) are completely over the top and uncalled for.

And last night the ref shouldn't have given the penalty, but I see no reason for a booking for simulation there. 

49 minutes ago, frenchred said:

It's cheating

As above: if it is cheating then its what most players do - and it's what I often read on here that our (City) players should be doing more of!

[MarcusX]

15 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Right can anyone explain the offside rule one more time?

A little while ago it was explained that, even though offside when the original pass was made, a striker could be onside if a defender deliberately plays the ball. Griezmann is clearly offside to start, but the defender heads the ball and AG scores. I think it was only last season a CB header played someone on in exactly that sort of way, have I missed something ..... again ?

What I will say is, the BBC site is avoiding saying "Offside". I could see a case for a foul on the CB, and as the Ref was called to the monitor to look, normally that's what I'd think. But there was an offside call yesterday where the Ref went to the monitor to look.

What with this and the recent Spurs goal where I learnt that the ball direction didn't matter, I think I might as well give up.

I haven't seen the specific incident but It's not an offence to be stood in an "offside" position

What is an offence (assuming in an offside position, besides obviously receiving/touching/playing the ball) is:

- interefering with an defender by preventing them playing the ball or clearly obstructing their line of vision
- challenging an opponent for the ball
- some other attempt or action that clearly puts off the opponent when playing the ball

If you think back to last season / season before we conceded a goal where the attacker was about 5-10 yards offside but the defender headed it backwards, that attacker then becomes on side because he made no attempt or effort to play the ball or impede the defender

If you think about this season with Sheff Utd was it and Billy Sharp? He was in an offside position and IMO made a challenge, or acted in a way that put off our defender who then headed it backwards and they scored from it. The goal was given but I think if we'd had VAR it would have been ruled out. I could have the team completely wrong but I'm sure it was Billy Sharp for some reason who was offside.

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, Super said:

Alex Scott cheats every game then. It's part of the game these days.

How dare you say such a thing !!  Go and wash your mouth out with a pint of Strongbow.

[MarcusX]

13 hours ago, italian dave said:

And you were probably one of those giving Gosling grief when went down in the Watford game.

If there had been no contact then yes that’s cheating. But as soon as there’s contact - and there very clearly was here - then it becomes far harder to judge because you simply don’t know, from your position in the stand or in your armchair, exactly how hard it was, where it caught him etc. 

As I said, players go down all the time clutching ankles, writhing around, and sometimes they’re making a meal of it, sometimes they’re hurt. Was Henderson an ‘English cheat’ when he screamed out and rolled around clutching his ankle last night? 

And yes, when Messi is at his best, I’m a huge fan and love watching him…don’t you? 

I'll cavaet this by saying I've only seen one very bad video of the incident as I couldn't find a video anywhere online, but I appear to be the only person who doesn't at least think it's that bad a decision. I can certainly see why it's been given and there have been worse decisions (eg the inconsistency of the 2 in the England game)

Players in the box, and especially goalkeepers get away with murder more often than not.

Keepers have every right to go for a ball, but if they miss it and make contact with the opponent they have to accept the consequences.

I've never understood why if a player takes a shot (or header) then gets clattered afterwards, it's never a pen. Anywhere else on the pitch it's a foul? If you clear the ball out of play in the corner then someone catches you late, it's a foul - it doesn't matter where the ball ends up.

Similarly, if a player is tripped / fouled and then gets away an off-balance shot that is not an advantage. The foul should be given.

[italian dave]

4 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I'll cavaet this by saying I've only seen one very bad video of the incident as I couldn't find a video anywhere online, but I appear to be the only person who doesn't at least think it's that bad a decision. I can certainly see why it's been given and there have been worse decisions (eg the inconsistency of the 2 in the England game)

Players in the box, and especially goalkeepers get away with murder more often than not.

Keepers have every right to go for a ball, but if they miss it and make contact with the opponent they have to accept the consequences.

I've never understood why if a player takes a shot (or header) then gets clattered afterwards, it's never a pen. Anywhere else on the pitch it's a foul? If you clear the ball out of play in the corner then someone catches you late, it's a foul - it doesn't matter where the ball ends up.

Similarly, if a player is tripped / fouled and then gets away an off-balance shot that is not an advantage. The foul should be given.

I think the answer is (rightly or wrongly) that if you give a foul for that then every single corner ever taken results in either a penalty or a free kick to the defending side! 

[1960maaan]

12 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I haven't seen the specific incident but It's not an offence to be stood in an "offside" position

What is an offence (assuming in an offside position, besides obviously receiving/touching/playing the ball) is:

- interefering with an defender by preventing them playing the ball or clearly obstructing their line of vision
- challenging an opponent for the ball
- some other attempt or action that clearly puts off the opponent when playing the ball

If you think back to last season / season before we conceded a goal where the attacker was about 5-10 yards offside but the defender headed it backwards, that attacker then becomes on side because he made no attempt or effort to play the ball or impede the defender

If you think about this season with Sheff Utd was it and Billy Sharp? He was in an offside position and IMO made a challenge, or acted in a way that put off our defender who then headed it backwards and they scored from it. The goal was given but I think if we'd had VAR it would have been ruled out. I could have the team completely wrong but I'm sure it was Billy Sharp for some reason who was offside.

The highlighted part is kind of my point.

The ball is played in and the guy is clearly offside from the initial ball, defender heads the ball, Greizmann then scores from an "onside" position. 

 

Below Greizmann about to score from defenders header .

 

I have found an explanation from ESPN, here you go .

"When Aurelien Tchouameni played the ball into the area, Griezmann was stood yards offside. However, the France striker made no attempt to play the ball or challenge an opponent.

Defender Montassar Talbi tried to head the ball, but he didn't get much on the clearance and it dropped to Griezmann, who scored.

If the officials believed Talbi had made a "deliberate play," the phase is reset, Griezmann is onside and the goal counts.

If the officials believed Talbi hasn't made a "deliberate play," the phase isn't reset, Griezmann remains offside from Tchouameni's pass, and the goal is disallowed.

Essentially, a "deliberate play" is about the defender being in control of his actions. It's not purely about a player trying to kick or head a ball. If the defender has to stretch to play the ball, and can't have true influence about where it goes, that's not considered a "deliberate play." Whether a player is being challenged at that time is also a factor."

So ESPN believe that VAR's opinion is the defender, jumping for and winning the header, isn't making a deliberate play for the ball !
If anyone can explain how a defender spots, jumps and wins a header while no meaning to, then I'll hold my hands up. 
I don't get it. 
Somehow, the WC VAR have managed to be worse than our domestic version, and made it more confusing

Oh, BTW. France are complaining that the game was finished and the Ref blew for full time before the VAR decision was made. 

VAR  is not helping the game at all.

 

[Sheltons Army]

2 hours ago, Northern Red said:

I'd say it's the biggest difference, without hesitation. It's clear that there's mutual respect and trust between the manager and players, and the squad is far more united than previous England teams.

%100

I think Southgate has some flaws  , but one thing you can’t deny , that is really clear is the atmosphere and cohesiveness , he’s brought into England camps and campaigns , that have regularly been the opposite in previous regimes

Not an easy task in itself , but fundamental if we ever want success , so a massive tick for this

I think he’s also helped by the fact that we appear to have a group of players who not only have some very decent ability but appear to be , good lads , sensible , we’ll mannered , who really enjoy each other’s company 

Listening to some of the interviews of players between matches,  in this , and recent tournaments , it’s clear how much they enjoy the squad company, have fun ,  and get along -

for example , I heard Grealish talking about some of his teammates this morning and he was exuding what a ‘really nice lad’ Saka is , labelling him as ‘probably the nicest lad I know’

I also think Gareth is  fortunate , although I’d suggest Tbf,  it’s something he’s kept a steady control on , with selections previously , that there are no obvious ‘out of kilt egos’ about the place

I also think Kane has been a great head for the players , surely our best player over the last 5 years or so , but totally professional and seemingly zero ‘ego’

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Sheltons Army

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

I think the answer is (rightly or wrongly) that if you give a foul for that then every single corner ever taken results in either a penalty or a free kick to the defending side! 

I don't disagree with this, and I don't think it would improve the game - can see why it was given though and also why people think it shouldn't. Certainly not "one of the worst ever decisions" as Collymore was claiming on twitter last night, which is what piqued my interest, little bit hyperbole

[DolmanGaz]

So, what to watch today??

For me, in Group F it's prob Croatia v Belgium, as Belgium need to win, whereas Morocco only need a draw v Canada.

Group E, think i may be channel hopping between the 2 games...

[Sir Geoff]

11 minutes ago, DolmanGaz said:

So, what to watch today??

For me, in Group F it's prob Croatia v Belgium, as Belgium need to win, whereas Morocco only need a draw v Canada.

Group E, think i may be channel hopping between the 2 games...

Agree Croatia v Belgium, hoping to see some Belgian misery.

Group E. Will watch Spain hoping they lose, but that's unlikely. Unfortunately I can't see anyway that Germany don't qualify.

[Rebounder]

58 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

%100

I think Southgate has some flaws  , but one thing you can’t deny , that is really clear is the atmosphere and cohesiveness , he’s brought into England camps and campaigns , that have regularly been the opposite in previous regimes

Not an easy task in itself , but fundamental if we ever want success , so a massive tick for this

I think he’s also helped by the fact that we appear to have a group of players who not only have some very decent ability but appear to be , good lads , sensible , we’ll mannered , who really enjoy each other’s company 

Listening to some of the interviews of players between matches,  in this , and recent tournaments , it’s clear how much they enjoy the squad company, have fun ,  and get along -

for example , I heard Grealish talking about some of his teammates this morning and he was exuding what a ‘really nice lad’ Saka is , labelling him as ‘probably the nicest lad I know’

I also think Gareth is  fortunate , although I’d suggest Tbf,  it’s something he’s kept a steady control on , with selections previously , that there are no obvious ‘out of kilt egos’ about the place

I also think Kane has been a great head for the players , surely our best player over the last 5 years or so , but totally professional and seemingly zero ‘ego’

 

Lampard, Ferdinand etc have all spoken about how divided the England team was in their era. People sticking to their club groups at breakfast, not wanting to mix and give away information that might affect their league campaigns. I think that's a massive difference in this team and you can see they are a unit. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for that. 

Regardless of if he wins anything he has put good foundations in place and also had decent success compared to previous managers. There are of course valid criticisms too especially when needing to change a game. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Rebounder

[cidercity1987]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

The highlighted part is kind of my point.

The ball is played in and the guy is clearly offside from the initial ball, defender heads the ball, Greizmann then scores from an "onside" position. 

 

Below Greizmann about to score from defenders header .

 

I have found an explanation from ESPN, here you go .

"When Aurelien Tchouameni played the ball into the area, Griezmann was stood yards offside. However, the France striker made no attempt to play the ball or challenge an opponent.

Defender Montassar Talbi tried to head the ball, but he didn't get much on the clearance and it dropped to Griezmann, who scored.

If the officials believed Talbi had made a "deliberate play," the phase is reset, Griezmann is onside and the goal counts.

If the officials believed Talbi hasn't made a "deliberate play," the phase isn't reset, Griezmann remains offside from Tchouameni's pass, and the goal is disallowed.

Essentially, a "deliberate play" is about the defender being in control of his actions. It's not purely about a player trying to kick or head a ball. If the defender has to stretch to play the ball, and can't have true influence about where it goes, that's not considered a "deliberate play." Whether a player is being challenged at that time is also a factor."

So ESPN believe that VAR's opinion is the defender, jumping for and winning the header, isn't making a deliberate play for the ball !
If anyone can explain how a defender spots, jumps and wins a header while no meaning to, then I'll hold my hands up. 
I don't get it. 
Somehow, the WC VAR have managed to be worse than our domestic version, and made it more confusing

Oh, BTW. France are complaining that the game was finished and the Ref blew for full time before the VAR decision was made. 

VAR  is not helping the game at all.

 

I think VAR is showing up the technical incompetence of some refs that's for sure. They can't hide behind oh didn't see it anymore.

That goal would have been given in England without a doubt (Taylor Moore v Assombolonga, Rovers defender v West Brom years ago, many many examples where a deliberate touch from the defender automatically makes the attacker onside)

[Open End Numb Legs]

My only criticism of Southgate has been mentioned on here before, he (apparently) struggles to change from the Plan A that was prepared before the game.

I assume he will have alternative plans ready to go, e.g. down to 10 men, keeper sent off, but he does seem slow to react sometimes when it isn't going how he expected.

I had to chuckle at the quality of subs he had available, Wales were losing in a must win game and then they look up and see Grealish coming on!

Someone said England are flat track bullies, a cricket term. Maybe true?

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

The highlighted part is kind of my point.

The ball is played in and the guy is clearly offside from the initial ball, defender heads the ball, Greizmann then scores from an "onside" position. 

 

Below Greizmann about to score from defenders header .

 

I have found an explanation from ESPN, here you go .

"When Aurelien Tchouameni played the ball into the area, Griezmann was stood yards offside. However, the France striker made no attempt to play the ball or challenge an opponent.

Defender Montassar Talbi tried to head the ball, but he didn't get much on the clearance and it dropped to Griezmann, who scored.

If the officials believed Talbi had made a "deliberate play," the phase is reset, Griezmann is onside and the goal counts.

If the officials believed Talbi hasn't made a "deliberate play," the phase isn't reset, Griezmann remains offside from Tchouameni's pass, and the goal is disallowed.

Essentially, a "deliberate play" is about the defender being in control of his actions. It's not purely about a player trying to kick or head a ball. If the defender has to stretch to play the ball, and can't have true influence about where it goes, that's not considered a "deliberate play." Whether a player is being challenged at that time is also a factor."

So ESPN believe that VAR's opinion is the defender, jumping for and winning the header, isn't making a deliberate play for the ball !
If anyone can explain how a defender spots, jumps and wins a header while no meaning to, then I'll hold my hands up. 
I don't get it. 
Somehow, the WC VAR have managed to be worse than our domestic version, and made it more confusing

Oh, BTW. France are complaining that the game was finished and the Ref blew for full time before the VAR decision was made. 

VAR  is not helping the game at all.

 

For me, AG’s position makes the defender go backwards for the ball and try to head it.  As you say he wasn’t back-pedalling prior to his jump he’d be in more control. I think offside was correct.

 

FWIW, I think the offside tech has been very good, certainly in terms of what we are shown on screen.  I’m not convinced about the images shown in the opening game, but that decision aside, it’s been good.

The stuff we see in PL games is crap, look like poorly drawn lines, which are too thick, etc.

The fact that the ball has a sensor (500 senses a second) allows better decisions around when the ball was kicked.

If I saw this introduced into our game I would have less issues.

[Super]

Why is Suarez still getting grief for that Ghana handball?!

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

The highlighted part is kind of my point.

The ball is played in and the guy is clearly offside from the initial ball, defender heads the ball, Greizmann then scores from an "onside" position. 

 

Below Greizmann about to score from defenders header .

 

I have found an explanation from ESPN, here you go .

"When Aurelien Tchouameni played the ball into the area, Griezmann was stood yards offside. However, the France striker made no attempt to play the ball or challenge an opponent.

Defender Montassar Talbi tried to head the ball, but he didn't get much on the clearance and it dropped to Griezmann, who scored.

If the officials believed Talbi had made a "deliberate play," the phase is reset, Griezmann is onside and the goal counts.

If the officials believed Talbi hasn't made a "deliberate play," the phase isn't reset, Griezmann remains offside from Tchouameni's pass, and the goal is disallowed.

Essentially, a "deliberate play" is about the defender being in control of his actions. It's not purely about a player trying to kick or head a ball. If the defender has to stretch to play the ball, and can't have true influence about where it goes, that's not considered a "deliberate play." Whether a player is being challenged at that time is also a factor."

So ESPN believe that VAR's opinion is the defender, jumping for and winning the header, isn't making a deliberate play for the ball !
If anyone can explain how a defender spots, jumps and wins a header while no meaning to, then I'll hold my hands up. 
I don't get it. 
Somehow, the WC VAR have managed to be worse than our domestic version, and made it more confusing

Oh, BTW. France are complaining that the game was finished and the Ref blew for full time before the VAR decision was made. 

VAR  is not helping the game at all.

 

My view from those images (without reading on) would be onside, because the defender has made an attempt to play it. The player challenging him is onside.

Reading the ESPN explanation I feel the same as you, I've also never seen it implemented in that way. I can't think of any specific example but that's a clear attempt to play the ball as you say. One time the rule gets frustrating is when a defender HAS to play a ball because he doesn't know for certain the man behind him is offside, and stretches or doesn't get enough on it. if the player wasn't behind him, he wouldn't need to make that play - but that's the rules.

Also another frustration is at park levels refs not knowing the fule changes. Linesmen put their flags up as soon as the balls kicked without even seeing if it goes near the offside player, let alone him actually touching it. Also argued with a ref about an offside free kick being taken in the other teams half. He was adament that wasn't possible - even though it's there in black and white "If an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick where the offence occurred, including if it is in the player’s own half of the field of play."  Probably just being a bit pedantic, I'd hate to be a ref mind 

[Northern Red]

9 minutes ago, Super said:

Why is Suarez still getting grief for that Ghana handball?!

I don't get the fuss over it, never have done. He only did what many other players would and it doesn't even come into the equation when you compare it to his other offences.

[The dastardly red]

6 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

I don't get the fuss over it, never have done. He only did what many other players would and it doesn't even come into the equation when you compare it to his other offences.

Slightly related, has Suarez ever won a major trophy? Can't remember if he ever won the Chompians League.