City offer Warm Space Refuge

[Peter1450]

Used to cost £180 for a large crate of kiln dried logs ,these are now  around £600 dependent on the type of wood, the frustrating part is that even the briquettes made from waste product in this country are ridiculously priced and are not that great when it’s this cold!

[archie andrews]

3 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Wealth, odd concept. Debt is easier to understand, its that owing to be repaid. 

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to the Government to the tune of £38,500 and rising.

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to cover future public sector pension liabilities to the tune of £30,800 and rising.

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to cover EXISTING public sector PPP/PFI off book liabilities to the tune of £2,800.

Excluding student loans, the average person in the UK is personally indebted to the tune of £33,400 and rising.

So the average UK citizen has unpaid liabilities in excess of £105k. Whilst some have assets to cover their indebtedness the majority do not. My kids and their kids will be expected to carry the burden of debt repayment. Were we truly 'wealthy' I'm not sure we'd be that indebted nor hang that millstone around the necks of future generations.

 

my cheque to the govt. is in the post.....

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Wealth, odd concept. Debt is easier to understand, its that owing to be repaid. 

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to the Government to the tune of £38,500 and rising.

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to cover future public sector pension liabilities to the tune of £30,800 and rising.

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to cover EXISTING public sector PPP/PFI off book liabilities to the tune of £2,800.

Excluding student loans, the average person in the UK is personally indebted to the tune of £33,400 and rising.

So the average UK citizen has unpaid liabilities in excess of £105k. Whilst some have assets to cover their indebtedness the majority do not. My kids and their kids will be expected to carry the burden of debt repayment. Were we truly 'wealthy' I'm not sure we'd be that indebted nor hang that millstone around the necks of future generations.

 

It often makes me laugh when I see articles about benefits online and without fail you'll always see people say "i PaY fOr ThEiR bEnEfItS" when the reality is they themselves will die being in debt for their existence. 

[SecretSam]

On 14/12/2022 at 16:20, BTRFTG said:

Wealth, odd concept. Debt is easier to understand, its that owing to be repaid. 

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to the Government to the tune of £38,500 and rising.

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to cover future public sector pension liabilities to the tune of £30,800 and rising.

Every man, woman and child in the UK is indebted to cover EXISTING public sector PPP/PFI off book liabilities to the tune of £2,800.

Excluding student loans, the average person in the UK is personally indebted to the tune of £33,400 and rising.

So the average UK citizen has unpaid liabilities in excess of £105k. Whilst some have assets to cover their indebtedness the majority do not. My kids and their kids will be expected to carry the burden of debt repayment. Were we truly 'wealthy' I'm not sure we'd be that indebted nor hang that millstone around the necks of future generations.

 

How to say you don't understand economics, without saying it

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, SecretSam said:

How to say you don't understand economics, without saying it

I'd counter those who understand economics aren't in massive debt, or need of food banks or shelter because they know how to manage things for themselves. Must be I was lucky enough to grow up in an era and area full of economics experts, for despite BS13 residents not having a proverbial to proverbial in no kid I grew up with went hungry, nor undressed, nor without a roof over their head. Odd that, given 50 years ago residents comparatively had less disposable income than their equivalent today.

If this nation is 'wealthy', as you say, how come so many claim to be needy and why does the government have to bail out many tens of millions who claim to be struggling with the basics? How come its infrastructure and public services are falling apart despite tax take being at historically high levels? 

 

[SecretSam]

1 minute ago, BTRFTG said:

I'd counter those who understand economics aren't in massive debt, or need of food banks or shelter because they know how to manage things for themselves. Must be I was lucky enough to grow up in an era and area full of economics experts, for despite BS13 residents not having a proverbial to proverbial in no kid I grew up with went hungry, nor undressed, nor without a roof over their head. Odd that, given 50 years ago residents comparatively had less disposable income than their equivalent today.

If this nation is 'wealthy', as you say, how come so many claim to be needy and why does the government have to bail out many tens of millions who claim to be struggling with the basics? How come its infrastructure and public services are falling apart despite tax take being at historically high levels? 

 

That's politics, not economics. There is a concept in economics called 'market failure', which is where the market fails to provide appropriately for all consumers - which is why we need government to correct it by restructuring the market (eg increasing taxes, raising benefits, wages, etc). If we have food banks, that's because of the market failing and govt not correcting it.

Don't blame economics for the failures of policy.

[BTRFTG]

On 16/12/2022 at 09:30, SecretSam said:

That's politics, not economics. There is a concept in economics called 'market failure', which is where the market fails to provide appropriately for all consumers - which is why we need government to correct it by restructuring the market (eg increasing taxes, raising benefits, wages, etc). If we have food banks, that's because of the market failing and govt not correcting it.

Don't blame economics for the failures of policy.

Or perchance personal failing? If folks who had less in my youth didn't go hungry why are they hungry now? I could cite dozens of examples, but these days its easier to point fingers of blame, easier to conflate that one demands one needs with that one actually needs. Go apply your 'market failure' theory to the rank of shops where I grew up. Odd the cheap and basic suppliers of my youth were replaced by expensive "value added' suppliers. They were replaced because largely potless punters demanded them. No longer buying spuds by the sack, rather spending half as much on one bag of chips. As a kid food & shelter took precedence over private transport, telecommunications, consumer goods & holidays. Daps were cheap, black and without branded logo, the latter of no functional consequence. Not so that witnessed in BS13 food bank queues these days. 

[Rebounder]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Or perchance personal failing? If folks who had less in my youth didn't go hungry why are they hungry now? I could cite dozens of examples, but these days its easier to point fingers of blame, easier to conflate that one demands one needs with that one actually needs. Go apply your 'market failure' theory to the rank of shops where I grew up. Odd the cheap and basic suppliers of my youth were replaced by expensive "value added' suppliers. They were replaced because largely potless punters demanded them. No longer buying spuds by the sack, rather spending half as much on one bag of chips. As a kid food & shelter took precedence over private transport, telecommunications, consumer goods & holidays. Daps were cheap, black and without branded logo, the latter of no functional consequence. Not so that witnessed in BS13 food bank queues these days. 

I started to write a deconstruction of this post, but I can't really be assed. My parents grew up in the 1950's and they still had ration books. Wigan Pier a good example of the levels of poverty that existed. Some things were grim and hard, but some things were a lot easier than they are now. So many of those things you've listed have changed due to the changes in work and economic shifts. 

All I can say is I spent 3 hours in torchlight and candle light with a group of people in an isolated are of NE somerset whose gas and electric had been cut off and Disability Payments stopped following a crisis. We didn't get through to the energy company as we had to give up after 90 Minutes on hold. They had some biscuits for lunch. I felt the cold drop whilst I was with them, smelt the mould in the building and they pulled on blankets whilst we discussed how the candle light had made it feel warmer than the -5 degrees it was outside. 

I then left them to go and get a coffee to warm my bones and go back to my warm house. I can assure you that branded trainers, holidays, and TV's aren't something that they think about in general and were far from their mind at that moment.  They had been living like that for over a month, not through choice.  These are the people who will be using our warm spaces. 

My advice to you whilst you pass judgement of people's clothes at the foodbank is to consider that sometimes people's situations change, especially during a cost of living  and energy crisis, and you have no idea how they got into that place. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Rebounder

[joe jordans teeth]

2 hours ago, Rebounder said:

I started to write a deconstruction of this post, but I can't really be assed. My parents grew up in the 1950's and they still had ration books. Wigan Pier a good example of the levels of poverty that existed. Some things were grim and hard, but some things were a lot easier than they are now. So many of those things you've listed have changed due to the changes in work and economic shifts. 

All I can say is I spent 3 hours in torchlight and candle light with a group of people in an isolated are of NE somerset whose gas and electric had been cut off and Disability Payments stopped following a crisis. We didn't get through to the energy company as we had to give up after 90 Minutes on hold. They had some biscuits for lunch. I felt the cold drop whilst I was with them, smelt the mould in the building and they pulled on blankets whilst we discussed how the candle light had made it feel warmer than the -5 degrees it was outside. 

I then left them to go and get a coffee to warm my bones and go back to my warm house. I can assure you that branded trainers, holidays, and TV's aren't something that they think about in general and were far from their mind at that moment.  They had been living like that for over a month, not through choice.  These are the people who will be using our warm spaces. 

My advice to you whilst you pass judgement of people's clothes at the foodbank is to consider that sometimes people's situations change, especially during a cost of living  and energy crisis, and you have no idea how they got into that place. 

Hear hear,you have to take into consideration this country is full of wet wipes now and will continue to be so until they really hit hard times ,imagine these lot having to have a dump outside in a building what wasn’t joined to their house 

Edited December 17, 2022 by joe jordans teeth

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Rebounder said:

My advice to you whilst you pass judgement of people's clothes at the foodbank is to consider that sometimes people's situations change, especially during a cost of living  and energy crisis, and you have no idea how they got into that place. 

Thank you for posting…

[Eddie Hitler]

14 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Or perchance personal failing? If folks who had less in my youth didn't go hungry why are they hungry now? I could cite dozens of examples, but these days its easier to point fingers of blame, easier to conflate that one demands one needs with that one actually needs. Go apply your 'market failure' theory to the rank of shops where I grew up. Odd the cheap and basic suppliers of my youth were replaced by expensive "value added' suppliers. They were replaced because largely potless punters demanded them. No longer buying spuds by the sack, rather spending half as much on one bag of chips. As a kid food & shelter took precedence over private transport, telecommunications, consumer goods & holidays. Daps were cheap, black and without branded logo, the latter of no functional consequence. Not so that witnessed in BS13 food bank queues these days. 

 

I mostly agree but one fundamental change that has caused huge problems for people is the widespread availability of easy credit.

Wonga loans, Klarna and credit cards to buy takeaway food, payday loans, and doorstep lenders for the desperate.

This has made people's financial situations messy, difficult and even out of their control.

When I was a skint student there was no credit and the grant was at a subsistence level, I had to save up for months to buy a new pair of jeans to replace my knackered ones. If I could have just bunged them on a credit card then I would have done but banks in those days did not give impecunious students credit cards.

That meant that I graduated with no debts, whereas someone graduating today will be graduating with £60k of debt, being charged sky high interest rates on that, and paying an extra 9% tax.

To pick up on the daps example without credit I would have bought the ones from the Co-op bargain range because that's all I could afford. I wasn't being virtuous.

 

We have become inured to substantial levels of debt as being the norm and I regard this as a horrendous societal change.

[exAtyeoMax]

3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I mostly agree but one fundamental change that has caused huge problems for people is the widespread availability of easy credit.

Wonga loans, Klarna and credit cards to buy takeaway food, payday loans, and doorstep lenders for the desperate.

This has made people's financial situations messy, difficult and even out of their control.

When I was a skint student there was no credit and the grant was at a subsistence level, I had to save up for months to buy a new pair of jeans to replace my knackered ones. If I could have just bunged them on a credit card then I would have done but banks in those days did not give impecunious students credit cards.

That meant that I graduated with no debts, whereas someone graduating today will be graduating with £60k of debt, being charged sky high interest rates on that, and paying an extra 9% tax.

To pick up on the daps example without credit I would have bought the ones from the Co-op bargain range because that's all I could afford. I wasn't being virtuous.

 

We have become inured to substantial levels of debt as being the norm and I regard this as a horrendous societal change.

I was going to say exactly the same. 
One of the Adam Curtis films talks about how people are enslaved by credit cards and loans. 

 

[Rebounder]

Also just to add people are allowed to make mistakes, bad choices, and unfortunately things happen sometimes which means that your situation changes dramatically. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to access help and support. 

Additionally - yes even those of us who are, or have been poor would still like some aspects of modern life to enjoy. One of my clients who is very socially isolated due to their health may buy a TV for £200-300 and may even spend slightly more "unwisely" but for them that TV could actually save their life as the alternative is darkness. Companies like brighthouse knew about these vulnerabilities and actively targeted poor economic areas like Knowle and Kingswood, giving credit at unsustainable rates, until they were rightly pulled up on it and forced to pay back compensation. You'd judge that person for having a TV and needing to use a foodbank on occasion. 

Also worth noting that most people need a smart phone, or access to a computer simply to do basic things now. 

We could live in a world where brands don't exist, and everyone has access to cheap clothes, food, housing etc. However, we live in a world that has been very happy to push narratives of how our worth is built around brands, owning a house and car, constant growth, encouraged debt and buying more stuff rather than using collective resources. We allowed supermarkets to run riot and watched our local high streets destroyed. I remember being a young teenager and looking at my older peers wanting to buy Fred Perry gear as that's part of how I believed you gained belonging. Obviously I learnt that's shit, but it's all done on purpose, pushed through constant advertising that invades our homes and public spaces, and most of us aren't immune to it. 

A lot of it just reads down as shitting on young people to be honest. I'm 30-35, my parents in their 70's, siblings in 40-50 range, and nieces and nephews in the 20-01 age range so kind of sit in the middle. We're all thriving and struggling with different challenges and different inputs. I wouldn't say any groups had it easier, or harder, it's just different. 

Probably the biggest disparity between me and my older siblings has been the ability to get on to the housing ladder, or access to affordable homes. My sister bought her house in 1998, and my brother took his council house into private hands and has since sold it which I massively disagreed with. My other sister also has a council flat. We pay £800 rent a month for a 1 bed flat and that's under market rate - I am the main earner as my partner can't work due to long term sickness right now.  I'd be quite happy to rent forever at affordable rates, but if I could I would jump at the chance to buy now. 

Also very weak Unions, wage suppression, lack of sick pay and attack on welfare has not helped. That's directly fed into people's poor physical and mental health, lack of time, and available resources. We have less community now and exist on smaller individual levels which means a crisis hits even harder. 

There are so many other ways I've benefitted though from being born in my age, cheaper travel, healthcare advances, technology for better or worse, and of course avocado on toast. So it's not all bad and I know my older peers had a lot of shit to battle through too. 

TLDR; As I said it's complicated and down to so much more than simply bad choices on an individual level. You have to consider society as a whole and we have actively created this mess so shitting on the poorest is bad form in my opinion. 

[Davefevs]

@Rebounder another great post.  This nation has become one that despises the struggling person more than it wants to help them.

One of my mates told me about his brother-in-law’s struggles and how quickly it spiralled.  Missed a few bills, lost his rented flat, etc, etc, then becomes homeless on the streets outside Debenhams each night.  Ah, but because he had an iPhone it was his own fault.  Jeez, it was a hand-me-down from my mate too.  It’s both eye opening and shocking to walk around Broadmead at night on cold, rainy evening and see them setting up their beds in doorways for the night.  Nobody can tell me they want to be there.  So what if they have a can of special brew, id want something strong to make me forget my struggles if I were them.

 

[Eddie Hitler]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Rebounder another great post.  This nation has become one that despises the struggling person more than it wants to help them.

One of my mates told me about his brother-in-law’s struggles and how quickly it spiralled.  Missed a few bills, lost his rented flat, etc, etc, then becomes homeless on the streets outside Debenhams each night.  Ah, but because he had an iPhone it was his own fault.  Jeez, it was a hand-me-down from my mate too.  It’s both eye opening and shocking to walk around Broadmead at night on cold, rainy evening and see them setting up their beds in doorways for the night.  Nobody can tell me they want to be there.  So what if they have a can of special brew, id want something strong to make me forget my struggles if I were them.

 

 

Part of my job used to be the financial side of provision for the homeless.

From the many examples I saw it is genuinely the case that anyone can end up homeless through a combination of unforseen factors.  I have seen a headmaster and a clerk, people with seemingly rock solid if average lives suddenly fall through the gaps for one reason or another.  Off the top of my head: relationship break up, bereavement, drink or drug addiction, first time criminal conviction are all reasons I have seen for people's lives to spiral out of their control.

There are however ways provided for those people to take themselves off the streets, dust themselves down and start again.

Anyone who is on the streets long term is there because for whatever reason they cannot cope with a normal life.  Quite often this is at the first step hostel stage where they cannot cope with the rules and will drink, take drugs, or fight with other people in the hostel.  Meaning that they are turfed back out onto the streets.

Any reasonable person without mental health problems or addiction will not be on the street for long.

We had on our staff a couple of guys who, though you would not know it, had themselves been street homeless for a long time and for one of them this was because he had been an alcoholic.  They were the A1 best people at assessing hostel applicants and seeing a sob story for what it was - mostly lies.

The absolute worst people were heroin addicts who would say anything, absolutely anything, without the slightest trace of shame in order to wheedle a tenner out of somebody.

 

Edit:  as a quick caveat I have known of one person, and just the one, who genuinely enjoyed living on the streets.  It was a mate's brother, who I never met, who lived on the streets of the West End where he could fully indulge his pleasures of fighting, sex, drink and drugs without having to obey any rules or do any work.  It can happen but it is incredibly rare.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Eddie Hitler

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Part of my job used to be the financial side of provision for the homeless.

From the many examples I saw it is genuinely the case that anyone can end up homeless through a combination of unforseen factors.  I have seen a headmaster and a clerk, people with seemingly rock solid if average lives suddenly fall through the gaps for one reason or another.  Off the top of my head: relationship break up, bereavement, drink or drug addiction, first time criminal conviction are all reasons I have seen for people's lives to spiral out of their control.

There are however ways provided for those people to take themselves off the streets, dust themselves down and start again.

Anyone who is on the streets long term is there because for whatever reason they cannot cope with a normal life.  Quite often this is at the first step hostel stage where they cannot cope with the rules and will drink, take drugs, or fight with other people in the hostel.  Meaning that they are turfed back out onto the streets.

Any reasonable person without mental health problems or addiction will not be on the street for long.

We had on our staff a couple of guys who, though you would not know it, had themselves been street homeless for a long time and for one of them this was because he had been an alcoholic.  They were the A1 best people at assessing hostel applicants and seeing a sob story for what it was - mostly lies.

The absolute worst people were heroin addicts who would say anything, absolutely anything, without the slightest trace of shame in order to wheedle a tenner out of somebody.

 

Edit:  as a quick caveat I have known of one person, and just the one, who genuinely enjoyed living on the streets.  It was a mate's brother, who I never met, who lived on the streets of the West End where he could fully indulge his pleasures of fighting, sex, drink and drugs without having to obey any rules or do any work.  It can happen but it is incredibly rare.

Thanks for giving some excellent insight.

[BTRFTG]

On 17/12/2022 at 18:22, joe jordans teeth said:

Hear hear,you have to take into consideration this country is full of wet wipes now and will continue to be so until they really hit hard times ,imagine these lot having to have a dump outside in a building what wasn’t joined to their house 

Frozen over in winter to boot. 

[BTRFTG]

On 18/12/2022 at 04:47, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I mostly agree but one fundamental change that has caused huge problems for people is the widespread availability of easy credit.

Wonga loans, Klarna and credit cards to buy takeaway food, payday loans, and doorstep lenders for the desperate.

This has made people's financial situations messy, difficult and even out of their control.

When I was a skint student there was no credit and the grant was at a subsistence level, I had to save up for months to buy a new pair of jeans to replace my knackered ones. If I could have just bunged them on a credit card then I would have done but banks in those days did not give impecunious students credit cards.

That meant that I graduated with no debts, whereas someone graduating today will be graduating with £60k of debt, being charged sky high interest rates on that, and paying an extra 9% tax.

To pick up on the daps example without credit I would have bought the ones from the Co-op bargain range because that's all I could afford. I wasn't being virtuous.

 

We have become inured to substantial levels of debt as being the norm and I regard this as a horrendous societal change.

Exactly.

I could relate some very telling truths about the 'banking crisis' and why it arose in the way it did. Its decades before the paperwork is no longer embargoed but future generations will learn how bankers (boo, hiss,) cautioned governments (boo, hiss,) to reign in unsustainable cheap credit but were firmly put in their place by the likes of Blair who ensured, should the banks attempt to stop the feel-good factor he demanded, his government would flood the market with cheap money.

On my estate as a kid there was no 'credit', only the cautioned against 'Never, Never.' Named for the simple reason you'll never own it nor ever stop paying for it. As with your jeans, my folks and their peers insisted you wanted something, you waited, saved, and only then bought it. The so called 'necessities' of modern life, private vehicles, holidays, multimedia entertainment & communications devices were rare as as rocking-horse for the simple reason they weren't necessary at all. You had them once you could afford them and only then.

Folks today love to conflate criticism of the present welfare state and alleged poorest with attacks on the poor. I was brought up to support those in need. The young, infirm and elderly UNABLE to help themselves. I still hold that to be true today. That's a million miles from supporting those for whom state sponsorship is seen as a rightful lifestyle. Its for that reason I fully support a new class of citizen, my kids, their kids and just about anybody under the age of 40. Why the hell should they be burdened with others ever-increasing, unsustainable debts simply because we've areas of this nation where multiple generations have never worked nor have any inclination of working. Not taking personal responsibility, no thought for others, the 'what's in it for me' generations.

There's also the biggie few talk about. The amount of money 'lost' by 'the poorest' to the darker side of the economy. On my estate there was one bloke who dabbled in drugs. If he came into the boozer he was given a royal kicking. If you wanted drugs you went into town. Last time I was there (for a wake,) there were underage girls (some grandchildren of kids I'd grown up with,) offering all sorts of 'services' (sic) around the back of the same boozer for next to nothing. All to service their and their 'boyfriends' habits. Plenty of unemployed blokes in the bar with pocketfuls of folding the likes usually reserved only for racecourses. But I'm also old enough to have known the acquaintance of plenty of addicts, many now dead, who would have attested addiction is nothing like that folks now love to describe. That of an unavoidable, lifestyle. You have to work bloody hard to become an addict, its not something you fall into overnight, by chance. And for that reason there is, inevitably, a degree of personal responsibility to be taken. But I'm a man out of time and few think personal responsibility and social duty merit worthy traits these days.

[Bristol Rob]

Just catching up on this thread and, wow...

So many of you have articulated so many of the issues in a way that I'm sure resonates with so many.

I know a fella who runs a charity, their 'thing' is to help those who have had a degree of disruption in their lives to prepare for independent living, this includes using the money they raise to be able to provide these people with a home starter kit, this generally includes sofa and chair, kitchen table/equipment, television etc.

All of which is usually sourced from catalogue companies, department stores and anyone with a 'return', most things delivered to someone and then returned (that has a plug on it) needs to be tested before it can be resold even if the product has never been plugged in, this requires staff, storage and a spark. All of those things cost money, so it's cheaper for these companies to donate, gift or discount. Sofa damaged in transit and there is a scuff mark? It sits in a warehouse before it's scrapped. Nothing to sit on and getting your own front door, a most welcome addition.

Where you have people moaning that some people with little cash are sitting in front of a 50" telly, it might be as a result of a donation. They don't make 22 inch CRT tellies that the poor get the moment their situation changes.

And if you are unable to afford a night out, an evening in front of the telly becomes all the more important.