The Lansdowns are a pox on our club

[The Swan and Cemetery]

6 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Using the record of our previous owners here to judge the current one by? We're not in competition with ourselves, we're in competition with Luton, Millwall, Swansea, Cov ....

Which still offers nothing to explain the view that seems to believe we’re pretty much on the Downs, rather than the lower half of the Championship, due to scandalous mismanagement by SL. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

We've been over it many times. He's clearly lacked any footballing nouse. I'm just watching Brighton beat Saints on motd. 

Brighton got promoted to L1 the year Lansdown took charge. Swansea were in the basement division. 

Swansea and Brighton have been in their 'new' stadiums for a considerable amount of time longer than we have. 

They also got to the prem without the constraints of FFP. 

Ask any Swansea fan their thoughts on their American owners. 

95% of Championship clubs fans would live to have an owner like Lansdown. 

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Using the record of our previous owners here to judge the current one by? We're not in competition with ourselves, we're in competition with Luton, Millwall, Swansea, Cov ....

We are in competition with both ourselves and the other teams. 

Success can and should be measured in both ways. Raw league table success has its place as a measurement, but we must also ask if we are continuously improving, or at least attempting to continuously improve. 

If we continuously improve ourselves, and do so at a faster rate than our peers, then league table success will come.

A continual and consistent drive for improvement is the success I want to see.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Swansea and Brighton have been in their 'new' stadiums for a considerable amount of time longer than we have. 

Correct. Since 2005 and 2011 respectively iirc.

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

They also got to the prem without the constraints of FFP. 

Well yes and no. FFP was in place when Brighton went up, whether it was quite as restrictive as now dunno.

Swansea certainly it wasn't but they wouldn't have breached anyway they would have been within I reckon by today's £39m 3 year loss limit.

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Ask any Swansea fan their thoughts on their American owners. 

Gone downhill badly under them although they run a reasonable ship financially.

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

95% of Championship clubs fans would live to have an owner like Lansdown. 

Unsure. Think he's been quite good and the infrastructure investment has been excellent, monetarily he has put a fair whack in but did he twist at the right times? Conversely there was big overspending at just the wrong time.

[Red-Robbo]

It's worth remembering that although Luton are now "fan-owned" - one "fan" owns 82% of their shares - during the time we've had Lansdown they've had two rogue owners who were more or less forced out due to fan disquiet and they spent 4 seasons in non-league, while Coventry's issues with its owners are well-known. 

Personally, I'd like to see an expanded, more football-savvy board and that probably means someone either buying in or buying up, and a reorganisation.   Bristol Sport isn't a bad idea, but it seems to have developed as some sort of unwieldy version of the Civil Service, rather than following the model foreign clubs have. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

38 minutes ago, RedM said:

It was done under Ashton's watch of course, and of course he has had his fun and is working elsewhere. Unfortunately we now have had to spend years mopping up his mess.

I am really concerned though how a club employee, as highly trusted as he was, was able to do so much damage for so long without ringing alarm bells somewhere. Who exactly was watching him, who was he reporting too?!

I don't think the Lansdown are a 'pox', that's harsh and disrespectful. I do think though that they have to 'up their game' and be more involved, Jon at least must step up to the role. Same with Pearson if he stays, he has to deliver.

For what it's worth I think Richard Gould has been excellent, really knows his stuff and will be a big loss. I hope the next bloke will be as good as him.

You can see the logic in the approach, backed by some notable previous successes in making money from transfers, if you then stepped it up a level and start paying big money for young talent as well as buying players from Prem clubs, it will overall raise your talent pool and be self financing by profiting from these players that you turn over and sell at a profit, until eventually you have a squad of players ready to challenge at the top of the championship and get promoted.

Great plan except, we did not really have the correct talent identification in place, MA had sold SL the dream and starts doing deals to blow smoke up his own backside whilst being wined and dined in Knightsbridge (8m for a defender!!) and by the time its clear we have bought the wrong players, covid hits to really **** us and MA has already seen the writing on the wall and lined up a new job.

Problem is, there is no magic solution to get promoted, otherwise every club would be doing it, then it would not work anymore

[Bristol Oil Services]

20 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Which still offers nothing to explain the view that seems to believe we’re pretty much on the Downs, rather than the lower half of the Championship, due to scandalous mismanagement by SL. 

It's very difficult to just tread water, in this division. To just pootle along. Who manages this? So success is getting promoted and arriving back in this division as one of the minted, PP clubs. 

Lansdown realised this, hence the rather steep challenge put before LJ: play-offs, minimum.

If we don’t get promoted from this division, going backwards at some point is almost guaranteed. So, I say again, success is promotion even if we're immediately relegated.

This is why LJ failed.

Look where we are now.

Rotherham, Yeovil, Burton, they cannot hope to get promoted from the Championship when they get to it. Any club with 25,000 seats and 20,000 plus fans in the Championship has to get promoted nowadays. If you don't, you're going to go back and down sooner or later.

There's no in between. Not when, if you finish 17th, you're best player is off. Every time.

So, again: success means going up, and to have any chance of that, 6th is a minimum  (even though it's a ridiculous "ask." Lansdown still has to ask it, there's no other option).

 

 

[Kodjias Wrist]

With the money spent I bet the Lansdowns can't believe how we haven't even managed to get in the championship playoffs after 15 seasons. 

The appointment of Holden after Tinnion and Millen took the utter piss and after the money thrown at LJ it was incredibly frustrating to see they had not learned their lesson.

All we ever wanted was a proven manager at this level and unfortunately Coppell whilst a very good appointment on paper ultimately set in motion our transition into league 1 again. 

SOD was also decent on paper but by then it was too late by then and he was the wrong man for a battle at the bottom. 

We finally have a proven manager again but he was handed a messy situation and whilst opinnions differ on how he has dealt with that, its no doubt a big task.

I feel with Lansdowns the only times they hired the right managers was Cotterill and Nige. Also we never get coaches who move on to better things. Look at Swansea. Martinez, Rodgers, Potter, Cooper. I know they are an anomaly but still....Just don't understand how we can't even make top 6 when Barnsley, Millwall and Luton all have recently. I really cannot put my finger on it. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's worth remembering that although Luton are now "fan-owned" - one "fan" owns 82% of their shares - during the time we've had Lansdown they've had two rogue owners who were more or less forced out due to fan disquiet and they spent 4 seasons in non-league, while Coventry's issues with its owners are well-known. 

Personally, I'd like to see an expanded, more football-savvy board and that probably means someone either buying in or buying up, and a reorganisation.   Bristol Sport isn't a bad idea, but it seems to have developed as some sort of unwieldy version of the Civil Service, rather than following the model foreign clubs have. 

Me too.  I’ve long called out for football-savvy people at the higher levels.  I called for a Lenny Lawrence-type when both LJ and DH were appointed.  We’ve put a football man into recruitment with Tins at long last.

We can all agree / disagree on the manager (most disagree with me ) but we need to have clarity from above.

Hopefully the new CEO when announced will bring that and be a good fit with the “football” side.

[RedM]

15 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

You can see the logic in the approach, backed by some notable previous successes in making money from transfers, if you then stepped it up a level and start paying big money for young talent as well as buying players from Prem clubs, it will overall raise your talent pool and be self financing by profiting from these players that you turn over and sell at a profit, until eventually you have a squad of players ready to challenge at the top of the championship and get promoted.

Great plan except, we did not really have the correct talent identification in place, MA had sold SL the dream and starts doing deals to blow smoke up his own backside whilst being wined and dined in Knightsbridge (8m for a defender!!) and by the time its clear we have bought the wrong players, covid hits to really **** us and MA has already seen the writing on the wall and lined up a new job.

Problem is, there is no magic solution to get promoted, otherwise every club would be doing it, then it would not work anymore

Obviously there were a lot of gambles on the talent and of course we can see it clearly in hindsight. I can see why people got sucked in, we did a couple of good deals then Ashton managed to convince those that mattered that everything he touched he could turn to gold and was believed.

I just hope lesson have been learnt. Everyone should be accountable.

Also none of this was the fans doing, yet we are having to accept a poor product and have less options because of an ex employees actions. And people who could have prevented much of this don't seem to recognise this 

[daored]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Me too.  I’ve long called out for football-savvy people at the higher levels.  I called for a Lenny Lawrence-type when both LJ and DH were appointed.  We’ve put a football man into recruitment with Tins at long last.

We can all agree / disagree on the manager (most disagree with me ) but we need to have clarity from above.

Hopefully the new CEO when announced will bring that and be a good fit with the “football” side.

We’ve lacked a football man at the top of the club for too long , the club appointed one in Ashton and those at the top appear to have switched off and agreed to what he asked for , regardless of the consequences. 
Tins is a step forward and a welcome one but he will need support from a business operator , that appointment is now key 

[daored]

3 minutes ago, RedM said:

Obviously there were a lot of gambles on the talent and of course we can see it clearly in hindsight. I can see why people got sucked in, we did a couple of good deals then Ashton managed to convince those that mattered that everything he touched he could turn to gold and was believed.

I just hope lesson have been learnt. Everyone should be accountable.

Also none of this was the fans doing, yet we are having to accept a poor product and have less options because of an ex employees actions. And people who could have prevented much of this don't seem to recognise this 

There is no acknowledgment from the Lansdown family , generally at Christmas time we hear from Steve. Nothing this year from either him or our chairman 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, RedM said:

Obviously there were a lot of gambles on the talent and of course we can see it clearly in hindsight. I can see why people got sucked in, we did a couple of good deals then Ashton managed to convince those that mattered that everything he touched he could turn to gold and was believed.

I just hope lesson have been learnt. Everyone should be accountable.

Also none of this was the fans doing, yet we are having to accept a poor product and have less options because of an ex employees actions. And people who could have prevented much of this don't seem to recognise this 

Worse still you get this (paraphrased) kind of thing: 

I know a lot of fans don’t like Mark but he does a great job for me at the EFL and was instrumental in the RHPC or getting Cat 2 status.

which is basically a put down of the fans.

[sh1t_ref_again]

2 minutes ago, RedM said:

Obviously there were a lot of gambles on the talent and of course we can see it clearly in hindsight. I can see why people got sucked in, we did a couple of good deals then Ashton managed to convince those that mattered that everything he touched he could turn to gold and was believed.

I just hope lesson have been learnt. Everyone should be accountable.

Also none of this was the fans doing, yet we are having to accept a poor product and have less options because of an ex employees actions. And people who could have prevented much of this don't seem to recognise this 

But the fans wanted success and I do not remember a big outcry when we were signing all these players, in fact it was exciting times, but like all fans we live with the outcome good or bad.

I think the issue is time, as in the time it took to see the error of MA's ways, by then its too late you have spent the money and invested it so are committed to players and contracts, no doubt if he was challenged by SL for justification would have been able to give chapter and verse why each signing would be fantastic for us. 

[ray savino]

Said it before, say it again. We need a new impetus to our ownership/board. It feels very stale, has been for a few seasons now. Need football world nous to join to help decide/ change or implement a direction instead of changing strategy with every downturn. Lansdown has put his money where his mouth is in terms of infrastructure, buildings, etc. However his largely poor/mediocre recruitment and football decisions have floated between panic and desperation at times.

I don’t want Pearson to go in terms of him basically telling us the shit we have put ourselves in, and hope that he can at least steer us out of it to leave the platform clear for new enthused investors and a new progressive manager. Times running out result wise/fans patience wise, so the Lansdown board had better have a bloody inspired plan B if the next few results are crap. History doesn’t paint a good picture though. This is where we discover that Pochettino is a huge cider connoisseur and would jump at the chance to fulfil his ambition to settle on the mendips according to Roy DeAlien.

 

[The Swan and Cemetery]

43 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

It's very difficult to just tread water, in this division. To just pootle along. Who manages this? So success is getting promoted and arriving back in this division as one of the minted, PP clubs. 

Lansdown realised this, hence the rather steep challenge put before LJ: play-offs, minimum.

If we don’t get promoted from this division, going backwards at some point is almost guaranteed. So, I say again, success is promotion even if we're immediately relegated.

This is why LJ failed.

Look where we are now.

Rotherham, Yeovil, Burton, they cannot hope to get promoted from the Championship when they get to it. Any club with 25,000 seats and 20,000 plus fans in the Championship has to get promoted nowadays. If you don't, you're going to go back and down sooner or later.

There's no in between. Not when, if you finish 17th, you're best player is off. Every time.

So, again: success means going up, and to have any chance of that, 6th is a minimum  (even though it's a ridiculous "ask." Lansdown still has to ask it, there's no other option).

 

 

Think your definition of success is probably fair, less convinced not getting promotion is therefore ‘abject’ (etc) failure, as some have indicated. Given mathematics + parachute payments mean success is tricky, do think we need a Plan B which maybe not what we want, but doesn’t destroy our club for the BCFC masochists of the future. Think SL has probably done a decent job of Plan B (albeit maybe too much of it Bristol Sport, rather than Bristol City, although I can see the logic) with more non match day income streams etc, but Plan A hasn’t come to fruition/has failed - however I do have sympathy given it’s very tricky. The (simplistic) odds of finishing in the bottom 21 seven seasons in a row are approx 6/4, so we’re doing worse than evens, but not dramatically so. 

[Jacki]

6 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Beauty is a perception, but we can measure excellence. Excellence would be category 1/player development efficiency. Bristol Citys academy is not cat 1 and not ranked in the top 15 academies in England for developing players = It is perfoming well, but not excellent. 

Your use of state of the art would indicate you feel BCFC have a training facility of the highest level. Versus the South West yes, but versus facilities at Villa, or Leicester or Southampton or many Championship sides and virtually all Premiership clubs its a big big no. 

I’m reading a lot of stuff about facilities, the academy, Lansdown’s intentions etc. I understand that people are frustrated at the moment but some of it is no accurate imo.

I’m fortunate enough to be at the HPC often, and have visited training grounds all over the midlands, south and south west over the last couple of years. HPC is an absolutely top class facility and is right up there with any I have been to….. the only one that is in a completely different league is Chelsea, which is exactly what you would expect. The ones you mention are also excellent, but ours is right up there with them. Those facilities will stand us in good stead when we’re trying to attract players, for many years to come. 

The post from @kmpowell is one of the most interesting I’ve seen for a long time. I suspect that one is spot on…. The lack of diversity of thought and the fact that SL has taken too much responsibility is most likely one of the key parts of the problem. 

[Smokey]

11 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

People who think the Landsdowns are ‘a pox’ need to explain where the £20m + pa to cover our losses is going to come from without them? Vague ‘financial consortiums’ don’t come up with that sort of write off money, fans like SL do. And while I dare say that some is the spending under Junior/ Ashdown was unwise, these were the players ( ie this was the spending ) that allowed us to compete in the top half of the Championship. People on here who complain about ‘deadwood’ and ‘financial mismanagement’ really understand nothing about modern football, the effects of Covid or FFP. SL is a great chairman and when he’s gone- and I dare say he will be soon- we’re going to miss him mightily.

Lansdown shouldn't of kept spending money where he had to pump money into cover the loses to start with.

[Smokey]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Couldn’t agree more.  Guess a bit of a difference between zoom and the whites of his eyes.  But, yep, conned basically.

Or doing what Lansdown had asked if him to do?

[tin]

11 hours ago, kmpowell said:

My 2p FWIW, from my personal thoughts into this very point...

A long time ago at the very start of my career, I had the absolute pleasure of working for HL from 2000-2008 (120 people in 2000, to post-float and over 600 people working for them in 2008), in a position where I had pretty much daily contact with PH and SL. Both of them are incredible when it comes to business, but they were/are very different drivers/personalities which IMO complimented each other, and the pair of them together were a force because they could challenge each other without fear or retribution. They also built a senior team of people at HL (many of who are still there today) who pretty much drove the company with them, that team were also varied and had equally driving/challenging personalities. That IMO was the key to HL's success, not PH or SL individually, but it was them together then as an expanding team. One thing that always surprises me is the way the two personalities (SL and PH) were/are portrayed and seen. I think you would be amazed to know that PH can be very compassionate and reasoned. Sure PH has a lot of northern noise and can be quite brash, but when it came to business he could be very measured and I indirectly learnt a lot from him. Over the years at BCFC I have witnessed both the strengths & weaknesses I also witnessed from SL at HL, for which I won't go into detail because this isn't a post that is designed to be 'personal' and I have a LOT of respect for the man and what he has done for this club.

So, the problem as I see it is there was/is nobody at BCFC who is in a position to challenge/help Steve in the same way PH (and the extended team) did at HL, and therefore SL has to make VERY hard decisions on his own and do what he thinks/wants, which sadly means some poor judgments have been made made over the years which IMO could have been avoided if there had been another voice in the room. But, for all the haters, there is no way on god's earth SL sets out for us to continue to be in this position, IMO it will however take help to get us to the next level. And by 'help' I don't mean his son, or family, or any 'yes man' like that parasite Ashton, but people like PH who would sit in a room and tell him exactly what they think, without penalty. Will that happen? I'm not sure it will, but I stay positive because if he did share and unburden some of the 'questions', we could be up there as one of the powerhouses of football.

Steve, if you are reading this (I know you sometimes do dip into this forum, because many years ago you gave me that subtle bollocking, which I rightly deserved!), my 2p from somebody who saw the incredible things you did at HL... continue trying to steer this ship on your own (with Jon) and IMO you are going to destroy your legacy and all the amazing things you have done for this club for which there is so so much!

I totally disagree with all the viritrol and 'pox' comments, this is just people's frustrations and by the very nature of Football it will happen, but sadly I also have no doubt this will all turn VERY toxic if we are relegated.

Good post. And the irony here is that SL had those challenging opinions from the likes of Laycock and Davidson when they were directors but he bought them out to create this dictatorship. 20 years on and look where that’s got us (on the pitch).

As for JL, he did just as little for HL’s helpdesk during those times as he’s doing as chairman of our club. The bloke’s a privileged clown.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On the point about what I assume to be the appointment of Tinnion ie the football man.

On one level yes a football man and yes he's done a lot for the club.

If I had a concern it would be, and this is a reflection more of the modern game than him, does he have those contacts that you seem to need these days .

I don't much love the business side, look at how Reading for example seem to get players well above what they should on loan e.g. from Chelsea but at the same time it seems to be something we are not so good at yet it is an important factor in recruitment and getting that edge.

Mark Bowen even basically said that they needed to call in favours this season loan wise. Chelsea obviousky but sounds like contacts have been tapped, favourable deals called in- we really do not seem to do this.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On the point about what I assume to be the appointment of Tinnion ie the football man.

On one level yes a football man and yes he's done a lot for the club.

If I had a concern it would be, and this is a reflection more of the modern game than him, does he have those contacts that you seem to need these days .

I don't much love the business side, look at how Reading for example seem to get players well above what they should on loan e.g. from Chelsea but at the same time it seems to be something we are not so good at yet it is an important factor in recruitment and getting that edge.

Mark Bowen even basically said that they needed to call in favours this season loan wise. Chelsea obviousky but sounds like contacts have been tapped, favourable deals called in- we really do not seem to do this.

He will have better ones than the one’s involved before his appointment.  Worked for Moyes at Everton don’t forget.  I’m sure he will have his faults too, but it’s a step in the right direction.

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He will have better ones than the one’s involved before his appointment.  Worked for Moyes at Everton don’t forget.  I’m sure he will have his faults too, but it’s a step in the right direction.

Ah yes that will be good, Moyes at Everton, wasn't fully aware tbh.

I just don't think we have exploited it well ever since I remember supporting us and it's a question of how can we maximise our chances. Maybe contacts are overrated I don't know but we seem to be a long way behind e.g. Reading- why has NP for example been unable to tap up Leicester for a good young loanee or two on favourable terms.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Supersonic Robin]

16 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

You have picked random sides who you perceive as having  done better, but what about our main rivals of 20 years ago, the gas, swindon Plymouth and Cardiff 

I've selected a few clubs that illustrate the point well at this moment in time, but unfortunately I could make an incredibly long list of clubs (our size or smaller) who have out-achieved us in the last 20 years.

Of the clubs between the bottom half of the Prem and the top half of L1 who have similar resource/potential to us, how many have we out-achieved? How many would swap their last 10-20 years for ours? 

To address your examples:

Bristol Rovers, Swindon, Plymouth - we really shouldn't compare ourselves to them. It holds us back. The only reason for comparison is geographical proximity. In terms of the potential and resources of the clubs, it's a worthless comparison. Yes, we've outperformed them, but that's a minimum expectation, not an achievement. (Also note that although we've been better than Swindon over the last 20 years, they can boast Premier League football and a major trophy within their history. It could be argued that 'little Swindon' have achieved more than us.)
Cardiff - A great example of a club of identical size who have achieved more than us. Despite the sometimes controversial ownership of Vincent Tan, they've been promoted to the Prem multiple times and have reached a League Cup final.
 

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, Jacki said:

I’m reading a lot of stuff about facilities, the academy, Lansdown’s intentions etc. I understand that people are frustrated at the moment but some of it is no accurate imo.

I’m fortunate enough to be at the HPC often, and have visited training grounds all over the midlands, south and south west over the last couple of years. HPC is an absolutely top class facility and is right up there with any I have been to….. the only one that is in a completely different league is Chelsea, which is exactly what you would expect. The ones you mention are also excellent, but ours is right up there with them. Those facilities will stand us in good stead when we’re trying to attract players, for many years to come. 

The post from @kmpowell is one of the most interesting I’ve seen for a long time. I suspect that one is spot on…. The lack of diversity of thought and the fact that SL has taken too much responsibility is most likely one of the key parts of the problem. 

Sorry top class would mean Bristol City's training ground would be amongst Arsenal, Villas, Brightons Chelseas, Leicesters, Man City's, Southampton, Spurs. With respect it absolutely is not.  I have been fortuntate to have seen my Son play at and taken youth teams to those facilities to play against academies and development sides. There are worlds apart there,

 

 

 

 

[Jacki]

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Sorry top class would mean Bristol City's training ground would be amongst Arsenal, Villas, Brightons Chelseas, Leicesters, Man City's, Southampton, Spurs. With respect it absolutely is not.  I have been fortuntate to have seen my Son play at and taken youth teams to those facilities to play against academies and development sides. There are worlds apart there,

 

 

 

 

Ok, if you’re comparing HPC to most of those clubs then your point about it not being ‘top class’ is a fair one. I watch my son in the same context that you do though and our facilities compare very well with Cardiff, Swansea and other clubs of similar stature to us. They also bare comparison with a number of established Prem clubs, although not those at the very top that you have mentioned (I did say that Chelsea was a different world, and you would expect it to be… I’ve not been to a number of those others you brought up). 

All of the pitches here are in superb condition and the gym, changing rooms, education facilities and sport science stuff on offer at HPC are way beyond the level you would expect for a club with our record of underachievement. Hopefully we can agree on the fact that the training ground is very much the least of our problems at the moment! 

[Red Army 75]

Since this training facility has been built. We have been everything but high performance. Stupid name 

[spudski]

Seeing lots of tweets this morning from fans, showing they have been blocked from following SL because they asked him to get rid of NP. 

[Red Army 75]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Seeing lots of tweets this morning from fans, showing they have been blocked from following SL because they asked him to get rid of NP. 

I saw his tweet last night. He was thanking a rugby player for his service. The first 10 replies within minutes was about sacking Pearson 

Here’s the link. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Red Army 75

[Son of Fred]

14 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Swansea and Brighton have been in their 'new' stadiums for a considerable amount of time longer than we have. 

They also got to the prem without the constraints of FFP. 

Ask any Swansea fan their thoughts on their American owners. 

95% of Championship clubs fans would live to have an owner like Lansdown. 

The Lansdown's are totally responsible for our dire financial position.

Undeniable.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Son of Fred