Difference to earlier in the season?

[sh1t_ref_again]

Earlier in the season we had a run of 6 wins and 2 draws, before our loss to Norwich (which was not deserved from memory) then a deserved loss to Burnley and poor results since, so just trying to see what has changed about the team

 

BCFC 2-0 luton Bentley (C), Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Sykes, Scott (Klose 81'), Massengo, Dasilva, Weimann (King 90'), Conway (Williams 77'), Wells (Martin 77')

BCFC 2-0 Cardiff Bentley (C), Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Scott, Massengo (Wilson 88'), Williams (King 84'), Dasilva, Weimann, Conway (Martin 79'), Wells (Klose 90')

Blackpool 3 -3 BCFC Bentley (C), Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Scott (Semenyo 64'), Massengo (James 45'), Williams, Dasilva, Weimann, Conway (King 86'), Wells

BCFC 2-0 Huddersfield Bentley (C), Atkinson, Naismith, Vyner, Sykes, James (Massengo 81'), Scott (Williams 75'), Weimann, Conway (Semenyo 58'), Wells (Martin 81')

Blackburn 2-3 BCFC Bentley (C), Dasilva, Atkinson, Naismith, Vyner, Sykes, James, Scott (Massengo 90+1), Weimann, Conway (Semenyo 63), Wells (Williams 87)

Norwich 3-2 BCFC Bentley (C), Dasilva, Atkinson (Martin 85), Naismith, Vyner, Sykes (Semenyo 65), James, Scott, Weimann, Conway (Williams 75), Wells

 

Keeper Bentley, now Max who has generally done well and only at fault for a couple of goals recently, so not sure how much impact

Our defence was fairly stable with Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Skyes & DaSilva, with Nailsmith eventually getting injured but now back, think most would agree Pring is an upgrade on DaSilva

HNM was ever present, but started to be reduced as James minutes increased

Upfront Weimann, Conway, Wells, with AW now playing deep at RWB, 

I said on another thread that we have lost our press up front and movement into space top allow quick passing, instead we play around with the ball at the back and hit long balls into the channels. With Weimann now deep, we have lost the energy to have a fast 3 man press and I think HNM workrate feeding AS is also a big miss. I have not looked back at the match reports and perhaps there are more reasons for the changes, but the side is not that different with all the players available if NP decides to change things around.

 

[WECANDO]

Pearson just needs to play the players in their best positions and stop p....g about. So

                  O'Leary 

      Vyner  Atkinson   Naismith 

Tanner                                     Pring

          Sykes            Scott

                 Weiman

           Conway     Wells

So get the ball forward quicker, support the player with the ball quicker so that he has options, get some hard tackles in and cheer up. I left James out because I tend to feel he's a backwards, sideways passer and a bit slow. Williams I feel his injuries have caught up with him so use him as a sub for awhile. Semenyo needs to play so he starts the cup game against Swansea with the experienced Wells. But just as important  the players morale has to be improved. Get out there and show the fans how good you are attitude.

 

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, WECANDO said:

Pearson just needs to play the players in their best positions and stop p....g about. So

                  O'Leary 

      Vyner  Atkinson   Naismith 

Tanner                                     Pring

          Sykes            Scott

                 Weiman

           Conway     Wells

So get the ball forward quicker, support the player with the ball quicker so that he has options, get some hard tackles in and cheer up. I left James out because I tend to feel he's a backwards, sideways passer and a bit slow. Williams I feel his injuries have caught up with him so use him as a sub for awhile. Semenyo needs to play so he starts the cup game against Swansea with the experienced Wells. But just as important  the players morale has to be improved. Get out there and show the fans how good you are attitude.

 

Sykes and Scott in midfield as a two?  No thanks 

[Sir Geoff]

40 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Earlier in the season we had a run of 6 wins and 2 draws, before our loss to Norwich (which was not deserved from memory) then a deserved loss to Burnley and poor results since, so just trying to see what has changed about the team

 

BCFC 2-0 luton Bentley (C), Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Sykes, Scott (Klose 81'), Massengo, Dasilva, Weimann (King 90'), Conway (Williams 77'), Wells (Martin 77')

BCFC 2-0 Cardiff Bentley (C), Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Scott, Massengo (Wilson 88'), Williams (King 84'), Dasilva, Weimann, Conway (Martin 79'), Wells (Klose 90')

Blackpool 3 -3 BCFC Bentley (C), Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Scott (Semenyo 64'), Massengo (James 45'), Williams, Dasilva, Weimann, Conway (King 86'), Wells

BCFC 2-0 Huddersfield Bentley (C), Atkinson, Naismith, Vyner, Sykes, James (Massengo 81'), Scott (Williams 75'), Weimann, Conway (Semenyo 58'), Wells (Martin 81')

Blackburn 2-3 BCFC Bentley (C), Dasilva, Atkinson, Naismith, Vyner, Sykes, James, Scott (Massengo 90+1), Weimann, Conway (Semenyo 63), Wells (Williams 87)

Norwich 3-2 BCFC Bentley (C), Dasilva, Atkinson (Martin 85), Naismith, Vyner, Sykes (Semenyo 65), James, Scott, Weimann, Conway (Williams 75), Wells

 

Keeper Bentley, now Max who has generally done well and only at fault for a couple of goals recently, so not sure how much impact

Our defence was fairly stable with Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, Skyes & DaSilva, with Nailsmith eventually getting injured but now back, think most would agree Pring is an upgrade on DaSilva

HNM was ever present, but started to be reduced as James minutes increased

Upfront Weimann, Conway, Wells, with AW now playing deep at RWB, 

I said on another thread that we have lost our press up front and movement into space top allow quick passing, instead we play around with the ball at the back and hit long balls into the channels. With Weimann now deep, we have lost the energy to have a fast 3 man press and I think HNM workrate feeding AS is also a big miss. I have not looked back at the match reports and perhaps there are more reasons for the changes, but the side is not that different with all the players available if NP decides to change things around.

 

Thought exactly the same during West Brom game. Our pressing intensity has gone. TC tried a couple of times but as no one else was pressing then his player had an easy out and TC was just wasting energy. Earlier in the season we had a high intensity press.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Thought exactly the same during West Brom game. Our pressing intensity has gone. TC tried a couple of times but as no one else was pressing then his player had an easy out and TC was just wasting energy. Earlier in the season we had a high intensity press.

Pre-game I’d questioned how we might cope in a back three system against their back four system, highlighting how we might deal with Furlong and Townsend being an extra man as West Brom built from the back.  In the opening minutes, they got Townsend free with one pass, so that Phillips could push Weimann deep.  I was a bit slow to hit the screenshot button on my iPad watching Robinstv. 

I had already screenshotted the space Townsend had earlier, this time it was Furlong advancing.

As per usual 3 CBs marking one forward, means West Brom have a free man somewhere.  In fairness to Pring, he’s just about to pass Wallace onto Naismith so he can pick up the player on the touchline.  Our Midfield three looks ok positionally, but aside from Scott who’s blocking a potential passing lane, nobody is marking. The attack continued.  Weimann dragged very deep.  Vyner not sure whether to cover King (on Dike) or pick up Swift who’s off of Williams left shoulder.

So, next time I was ready.

it was all too easy. Dike comes short, Vyner caught not knowing whether to mark or cover Andy.  It’s all too late.  Where is Williams?  That’s Nahki running back I think.

Generally we are slow to move across the pitch, hence Weimann gets attracted to the passer (Townsend), and Phillips just runs off the back of him!

It needs to improve.

[Wade Wilson]

Pearson is the problem. As soon as anything goes wrong, and it will in football, he immediately throws the players under the bus and/or banishes them. How is there supposed to be any kind of team spirit when things get tough when you know, unless you’re one of his old boys, you’re gonna get blamed and named despite playing out of position. There’s no “we’re all in this together” feeling at the moment, it’s everyone’s fault but Pearson’s and that’s gotta piss the players off to no end. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's a bit less of a tactical point than some of the analysis on here but we were outscoring our xG in particular Conway was scoring at a rate that just did not feel sustainable. It was brilliant and he is a fine prospect but a dip was always likely.

Now we have overshot and we are underperforming at home certainly, lower goals etc than we deserve but the sustainability of our goals and the highly clinical nature we had early season at times just didn't feel like it was built to last- to me anyway. Certainly not for a top 6 push. I was pointing out our chances to goals ratio in August/September time.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[sh1t_ref_again]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Pre-game I’d questioned how we might cope in a back three system against their back four system, highlighting how we might deal with Furlong and Townsend being an extra man as West Brom built from the back.  In the opening minutes, they got Townsend free with one pass, so that Phillips could push Weimann deep.  I was a bit slow to hit the screenshot button on my iPad watching Robinstv. 

I had already screenshotted the space Townsend had earlier, this time it was Furlong advancing.

As per usual 3 CBs marking one forward, means West Brom have a free man somewhere.  In fairness to Pring, he’s just about to pass Wallace onto Naismith so he can pick up the player on the touchline.  Our Midfield three looks ok positionally, but aside from Scott who’s blocking a potential passing lane, nobody is marking. The attack continued.  Weimann dragged very deep.  Vyner not sure whether to cover King (on Dike) or pick up Swift who’s off of Williams left shoulder.

So, next time I was ready.

it was all too easy. Dike comes short, Vyner caught not knowing whether to mark or cover Andy.  It’s all too late.  Where is Williams?  That’s Nahki running back I think.

Generally we are slow to move across the pitch, hence Weimann gets attracted to the passer (Townsend), and Phillips just runs off the back of him!

It needs to improve.

I had screenshot the exact same clip earlier that lead to the 1st goal with a view to posting it. AW is caught in no mans land with Phillips running in behind him and AW easily beaten by the pass, by then Vyner has ground to make up on a runner already at full pace, should AW have been further up the pitch and challenging the player making the pass? it seems he is playing RWB but very deep a lot of the time, perhaps under instruction, or was this where a natural defender would know where is man is and track the run?

[Bar BS3]

3 of those games were against the very few teams that are currently below us in the table. One was against a lesser mid-table team that had to rebuild over the summer after being "cherry picked" at the end of last seasons over achievement - leaving the Blackburn result as the only one that stands out as a "great result" 

Competed well against Norwich, but that was the start of reverting back to type for NP.

Any manager who chooses to play our top scorer & top play maker at RWB for anything other than emergency cover, deserves the grief he's getting & that has been long overdue in coming his way, after being in an absolute mess since the day he walked in here, getting on for 2 years ago now. 

It is literally inexplicable that people have generally so tolerant of his record here.

Regardless of the circumstances he is hampered by, he still has a squad that is far better than what he gets out of them IMHO. 

There is no way we should be in serious danger of relegation- which we absolutely are.!

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

One was against a lesser mid-table team that had to rebuild over the summer after being "cherry picked" at the end of last seasons over achievement

Luton?

The only key player they lost was Naismith and actually spent rather a lot by their standards. They retained quite a few more than predicted I expect, Mpanzu in particular was touted for moves elsewhere. They retained their prolific scorer from last season. That said Adebayo has not but the same heights.

[Bristol Oil Services]

Or, just:

48 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Sykes?  No thanks 

 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I had screenshot the exact same clip earlier that lead to the 1st goal with a view to posting it. AW is caught in no mans land with Phillips running in behind him and AW easily beaten by the pass, by then Vyner has ground to make up on a runner already at full pace, should AW have been further up the pitch and challenging the player making the pass? it seems he is playing RWB but very deep a lot of the time, perhaps under instruction, or was this where a natural defender would know where is man is and track the run?

The annoying thing for me was that I wanted Vyner and Naismith to create the extra man in midfield when we had the ball.  I think Naismith strode forward once if twice, Zak didn’t.  Maybe stifled because our MF3 we so poor on the day…that to me was where we would win the game.  We did it for 10 minutes and looked decent…10 minutes only.  I hadn’t appreciated that Conway’s shot was tipped onto the bar (and over) until I caught the highlights.

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Luton?

The only key player they lost was Naismith and actually spent rather a lot by their standards. They retained quite a few more than predicted I expect, Mpanzu in particular was touted for moves elsewhere. They retained their prolific scorer from last season. That said Adebayo has not but the same heights.

Maybe... I thought they lost a few.

Regardless - a 2-0 home win against Luton Town is not a result worthy of clinging onto as a sign of hope, as we plumet towards the relegation zone, after (what is it now..?) 3 wins in 17/18 games...?

And it's not been concerning for just those 17/18 games. 

It's been concerning for almost 2 years now with a 6 games spell of hope that has since long been shown to have been an anomaly, rather than where we actually are/were - and my point was that 3 of those results were against teams that are still below us now.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Maybe... I thought they lost a few.

Regardless - a 2-0 home win against Luton Town is not a result worthy of clinging onto as a sign of hope, as we plumet towards the relegation zone, after (what is it now..?) 3 wins in 17/18 games...?

And it's not been concerning for just those 17/18 games. 

It's been concerning for almost 2 years now with a 6 games spell of hope that has since long been shown to have been an anomaly, rather than where we actually are/were - and my point was that 3 of those results were against teams that are still below us now.

Huddersfield certainly lost manager and a range of players, coinciding as it did wirh Parachute money ending last season ie last season was the final one. They continued to cut their cloth.

Yes Luton started slowly this season but until the red card for Sykes we were very good tbh and 2-0 could easily have been doubled. It's not that the red card was unjustified but that Freeman did not get his, or Sykes getting sandwiched in the build-up didn't get called as a foul.

Even the potential penalty denied at 2-0 on Atkinson but don't think that was one.

Results are a worry, don't think the performances have been that bad at home except for Millwall, QPR 1st half and WBA 2nd half. We deserved more (IMO) vs Watford, Sheffield United, some would argue Swansea and some would argue Stoke.

There are fine margins at play too. Could we have had a penalty vs Sheffield United? We sure could! Norwood red card? Well I think potentially.  Same game. We also hit the woodwork twice.

Vs Stoke we hit the woodwork at 1-0, that goes in we surely win?

Penalty(ies) v Watford? Potentially yes.

Did WBA not hit the woodwork at 1-0 ie their own woodwork? Yes. Worthy winners but goals can change games.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Maybe... I thought they lost a few.

Regardless - a 2-0 home win against Luton Town is not a result worthy of clinging onto as a sign of hope, as we plumet towards the relegation zone, after (what is it now..?) 3 wins in 17/18 games...?

And it's not been concerning for just those 17/18 games. 

It's been concerning for almost 2 years now with a 6 games spell of hope that has since long been shown to have been an anomaly, rather than where we actually are/were - and my point was that 3 of those results were against teams that are still below us now.

I agree the 6 games are the anomaly, but perversely that is now the bar for some people, which is unrealistic (imho).  Guess who wasn’t getting carried away at that point?  Perhaps a run that coincided with fixtures against poor teams actually tells us a lot about how good (or not so good in my opinion) this squad actually is.  It’s not crap, but it isn’t great either.  Confidence can play a part, consistency of selection too.  We lost James at the end of that run, then Naismith after that.  Whatever our opinions on them, the team was probably functioning at its peak.  It’s levelled off and now in a mini-slump.  Nige does need to get it going again, by whatever means that takes.

[Bar BS3]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Huddersfield certainly lost manager and a range of players, coinciding as it did wirh Parachute money ending last season ie last season was the final one. They continued to cut their cloth.

Yes Luton started slowly this season but until the red card for Sykes we were very good tbh and 2-0 could easily have been doubled. It's not that the red card was unjustified but that Freeman did not get his, or Sykes getting sandwiched in the build-up didn't get called as a foul.

Even the potential penalty denied at 2-0 on Atkinson but don't think that was one.

Results are a worry, don't think the performances have been that bad except for Millwall at home, QPR 1st half at home and WBA 2nd half at home. We deserved more (IMO) vs Watford, Sheffield United, some would argue Swansea and some would argue Stoke.

Do you think results might be better if someone else was picking the team & not playing our top scorer at RWB & Andy King at CB..?

Possibly with more of a game plan that taking a set piece, play 10 passes to then return the ball back to where the set piece was originally from, whilst losing games at home..?

And with a little more tactical thought that sticking 5 strikers on the pitch isn't going to get you much result when chasing such games..?!

[bcfc01]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

3 of those games were against the very few teams that are currently below us in the table. One was against a lesser mid-table team that had to rebuild over the summer after being "cherry picked" at the end of last seasons over achievement - leaving the Blackburn result as the only one that stands out as a "great result" 

Competed well against Norwich, but that was the start of reverting back to type for NP.

Any manager who chooses to play our top scorer & top play maker at RWB for anything other than emergency cover, deserves the grief he's getting & that has been long overdue in coming his way, after being in an absolute mess since the day he walked in here, getting on for 2 years ago now. 

It is literally inexplicable that people have generally so tolerant of his record here.

Regardless of the circumstances he is hampered by, he still has a squad that is far better than what he gets out of them IMHO. 

There is no way we should be in serious danger of relegation- which we absolutely are.!

Agree 100% about Weimann at RWB, it is senseless and unnecessary. It means we have no press up front, it means experienced wide players have him on toast due to his positioning, and it means his goal threat isn't apparent - especially against the better teams in this division.

He is simply being shoe horned into the team as "the best players need to be on the pitch". Yes, play the best players, but play them in their best position where they can be an asset to the team and affect the game. As Alf Ramsey said of criticism of his selections "we need the best team on the pitch, not neccessarily the best players". Playing an important player like Weimann as a wing back is stupid, either drop him or play him where he can do some damage to the opposition.

Similar could be said of King who has never been a CB and never will. It isn't his fault, he's been chucked under the bus in that respect and I feel sorry for the bloke, it's to his credit that he's kept individual mistakes to a minimum.

NP deserves all the stick he is getting.

All the historic issues which have constrained him shouldn't impair his ability to put a team together from this squad of players which keeps us clear of a relegation scrap.

He is underperforming imo, and if he keeps on his current track it will be his undoing and rightly so.

[Bar BS3]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I agree the 6 games are the anomaly, but perversely that is now the bar for some people, which is unrealistic (imho).  Guess who wasn’t getting carried away at that point?  Perhaps a run that coincided with fixtures against poor teams actually tells us a lot about how good (or not so good in my opinion) this squad actually is.  It’s not crap, but it isn’t great either.  Confidence can play a part, consistency of selection too.  We lost James at the end of that run, then Naismith after that.  Whatever our opinions on them, the team was probably functioning at its peak.  It’s levelled off and now in a mini-slump.  Nige does need to get it going again, by whatever means that takes.

Generally agree.... but a "MINI slump"..?!

It's been a 22 month slump, because he still doesn't have any game plan, shape or know his best team. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

26 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Do you think results might be better if someone else was picking the team & not playing our top scorer at RWB & Andy King at CB..?

Possibly with more of a game plan that taking a set piece, play 10 passes to then return the ball back to where the set piece was originally from, whilst losing games at home..?

And with a little more tactical thought that sticking 5 strikers on the pitch isn't going to get you much result when chasing such games..?!

Not a fan of Weimann at RWB. His versatility is a strength and weakness in that we know he is versatile, we know he can self-sacrifice for the team but the downside is he can be asked to fill a position such as RWB! Far too deep.

Certainly agree on the final point, I've never been a fan of the strategy of multiple strikers on the pitch when chasing- it feels like throwing loads of mud and hoping some may stick.

King vs Watford at home and Rotherham away did fine but it's not my favoured option.

Wingback wise a fully fit Wilson and Kalas, and by fit I mean match fit and confident would help a fair bit if we are to stick with the current setup. Sykes well he isn't a natural RWB, neither is Scott, Weimann sure as hell isnt- Tanner maybe but again an RB or RCB in a  back 3. Vyner? Again no RWB.

If all fit and in form and we stick to a back 3...

                 O'Leary

   Kalas Naismith Atkinson

Wilson James Scott Pring

     Weimann Wells Conway

Maybe one way to go although I'd prefer a 4-3-3 tbh.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[bcfc01]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not a fan of Weimann at RWB. His versatility is a strength and weakness in that we know he is versatile, we know he can self-sacrifice for the team but the downside is he can be asked to fill a position such as RWB! Far too deep.

Certainly agree on the final point, I've never been a fan of the strategy if multiple strikers on the pitch when chasing- it feels like throwing some mud and hoping some may stick.

King vs Watford at home and Rotherham away did fine but it's not my favoured option.

Wing back wise a fully fit Wilson and Kalas, and by bit I mean march fit and confident would help a fair bit if we are to stick with the current setup. Sykes well he isn't a natural RWB, neither is Scott, Weimann sure as hell isnt- Tanner maybe but again an RB or RCB in a  back 3. Vyner? Again no RWB.

So, if we have no RWB, why are we playing with wing backs ?

Also, if we have a fit and capable CB on the bench, why are we playing a career midfielder as a CB ?

Tanner would do a far better job at RWB than Weimann or Scott, and allow those two to be freed up to play their natural game to the benefit of the team. Similarly, get Atkinson at CB and allow King to play his natural game if required. 

Oh, I forgot, Atkinson is an introvert and laid back and therefore doesn't give enough in training. Why the **** did he buy him then ? What happened to due dillligence ? No, the excuses sound like bollocks to me, it seems like he just wants to shoe horn in players he can "trust" regardless of being out of position and a liability to the team (not the players fault).

NP needs to get a grip PDQ.

 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Generally agree.... but a "MINI slump"..?!

It's been a 22 month slump, because he still doesn't have any game plan, shape or know his best team. 

That’s because we start our opinions at different levels of expectation based on what he took over.  But it’s about opinions.  

 

12 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Agree 100% about Weimann at RWB, it is senseless and unnecessary. It means we have no press up front, it means experienced wide players have him on toast due to his positioning, and it means his goal threat isn't apparent - especially against the better teams in this division.

He is simply being shoe horned into the team as "the best players need to be on the pitch". Yes, play the best players, but play them in their best position where they can be an asset to the team and affect the game. As Alf Ramsey said of criticism of his selections "we need the best team on the pitch, not neccessarily the best players". Playing an important player like Weimann as a wing back is stupid, either drop him or play him where he can do some damage to the opposition.

Similar could be said of King who has never been a CB and never will. It isn't his fault, he's been chucked under the bus in that respect and I feel sorry for the bloke, it's to his credit that he's kept individual mistakes to a minimum.

NP deserves all the stick he is getting.

All the historic issues which have constrained him shouldn't impair his ability to put a team together from this squad of players which keeps us clear of a relegation scrap.

He is underperforming imo, and if he keeps on his current track it will be his undoing and rightly so.

I think the Weimann thing has been okay for Weimann in terms of his own performances, and the reason to 1) try to keep Scott in CM and 2) go to a threesome in midfield to protect the back three (certainly whilst Naismith was out).  Scott and Weimann are both better RWBs than Sykes (who is really a AM).

I’m generally an advocate of get your best players on the pitch…but I do agree with a lot of you, that overall it’s not worked for the team.  But there are other dynamics to the decision.

I would also go back to Weimann in behind at this point…partly because Naismith is back (that’s one of the dynamics).  King is also injured, so I’m sure he will go back to the early season three of Vyner / Naismith / Atkinson.  Personally I’d play Tanner at RWB for a bit of feistiness.  Pring gives us physicality too on the other side.  As a five I think that’s better.  Then Scott, James with Weimann in the hole.  I think Tommy might get a rest tomorrow, if Antoine is like a coiled spring.

Nige does deserve some criticism too, but not everything should be blamed on him either.  It’s a collective.  The players got away Scott free on Boxing Day.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

Oh, I forgot, Atkinson is an introvert and laid back and therefore doesn't give enough in training. Why the **** did he buy him then ? What happened to due dillligence ? No, the excuses sound like bollocks to me, it seems like he just wants to shoe horn in players he can "trust" regardless of being out of position and a liability to the team (not the players fault).

 

Indeed….and I think you begin to see why Tins has moved into the recruitment role.  FWIW I think Atkinson is a good signing overall.  I think Nige had become very used to having a recruitment Dept who know what he needs, and therefore it’s basically a rubber stamping exercise for him.  He’s learned the hard way in some respects.

Much as Tanner is still a longer term project, he was not the best available RB available for around £300k last summer.  Admittedly his wages will be low, but there were better options available without paying much more overall, even some freebies.

This window may give us an opportunity to see if recruitment has improved.

[bcfc01]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s because we start our opinions at different levels of expectation based on what he took over.  But it’s about opinions.  

 

I think the Weimann thing has been okay for Weimann in terms of his own performances, and the reason to 1) try to keep Scott in CM and 2) go to a threesome in midfield to protect the back three (certainly whilst Naismith was out).  Scott and Weimann are both better RWBs than Sykes (who is really a AM).

I’m generally an advocate of get your best players on the pitch…but I do agree with a lot of you, that overall it’s not worked for the team.  But there are other dynamics to the decision.

I would also go back to Weimann in behind at this point…partly because Naismith is back (that’s one of the dynamics).  King is also injured, so I’m sure he will go back to the early season three of Vyner / Naismith / Atkinson.  Personally I’d play Tanner at RWB for a bit of feistiness.  Pring gives us physicality too on the other side.  As a five I think that’s better.  Then Scott, James with Weimann in the hole.  I think Tommy might get a rest tomorrow, if Antoine is like a coiled spring.

Nige does deserve some criticism too, but not everything should be blamed on him either.  It’s a collective.  The players got away Scott free on Boxing Day.

Scott and Weimann may be better at the RWB than Sykes, but none of them are RWBs or FBs.

I advocated Tanner for that position in another post, he may not be a RWB but he is a career FB (although NP seems to mistakenly think he could be a CB), so his positioning will be better than the above mentioned three but maybe not offer as much going forward. He'd be solid defensively. Pretty logical really.

I'm not blaming NP for everything and the players should take some responsibility for the performances, but it is down to NP to put the best team on the pitch and, for me, he isn't doing that.

 

[Davefevs]

Just now, bcfc01 said:

Scott and Weimann may be better at the RWB than Sykes, but none of them are RWBs or FBs.

I advocated Tanner for that position in another post, he may not be a RWB but he is a career FB (although NP seems to mistakenly think he could be a CB), so his positioning will be better than the above mentioned three but maybe not offer as much going forward. He'd be solid defensively. Pretty logical really.

I'm not blaming NP for everything and the players should take some responsibility for the performances, but it is down to NP to put the best team on the pitch and, for me, he isn't doing that.

 

As you’ll see I’d pick Tanner too.

My final comment was general, not aimed at you.

[chowie]

we were enjoyable to watch then, probably our best stuff in the last few years. People were even worried Leicester were gonna come back and nab NP from us

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

So, if we have no RWB, why are we playing with wing backs ?

Also, if we have a fit and capable CB on the bench, why are we playing a career midfielder as a CB ?

Tanner would do a far better job at RWB than Weimann or Scott, and allow those two to be freed up to play their natural game to the benefit of the team. Similarly, get Atkinson at CB and allow King to play his natural game if required. 

Oh, I forgot, Atkinson is an introvert and laid back and therefore doesn't give enough in training. Why the **** did he buy him then ? What happened to due dillligence ? No, the excuses sound like bollocks to me, it seems like he just wants to shoe horn in players he can "trust" regardless of being out of position and a liability to the team (not the players fault).

NP needs to get a grip PDQ.

 

I guess that Tanner is the best option we currently have fit and available at RWB, doesn't mean I'm thrilled about it or think it will prove transformative but he is closer probably than anyone else unless we give Sykes another go. Would also free up Weimann either to play behind the strike pair or as part of a more obvious front 3.

Tanner-Naismith-Atkinson-Pring

Any merit to that? I worry about Naismith in a pair of CBs however.

If Atkinson being dropped and getting a bit of a calling out in public works or helps then maybe but I'd rather have as many good players on the pitch as possible, in their best position where possible.

[tin]

29 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Scott and Weimann may be better at the RWB than Sykes, but none of them are RWBs or FBs.

I advocated Tanner for that position in another post, he may not be a RWB but he is a career FB (although NP seems to mistakenly think he could be a CB), so his positioning will be better than the above mentioned three but maybe not offer as much going forward. He'd be solid defensively. Pretty logical really.

I'm not blaming NP for everything and the players should take some responsibility for the performances, but it is down to NP to put the best team on the pitch and, for me, he isn't doing that.

 

That’s a valid point and one I agree with. He needs to pick players in their preferred positions and if he’s welded to a back three, right now that should mean Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson, with Tanner and Pring either side. Scott and James in midfield behind Weimann, and the front two pick themselves. I’ve got no doubt Tanner could do a better job at RWB than Sykes, Scott or Weimann. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick look stats wise.

First 10 games, our strikers scored 16 goals between them- Weimann, Wells, Masfin, Semenyo and Conway.

16 goals from 70 shots and none were penalty goals. That's not far off 1 in every 4 shots results in a goal, it's hard to sustain. This is inclusive of sub appearances etc. 22.856% conversion rate and none of them penalties is elite but unless you are elite you won't be sustaining such numbers.

People can scoff at stats if they like but.

If you get a high ratio of penalties to games that moves the dial of course. We though seem to be one of the lowest in Europe over a given period!!

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[NcnsBcfc]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As you’ll see I’d pick Tanner too.

My final comment was general, not aimed at you.

As I said on the FBC Podcast @Davefevs I would love to see what our crossing success rate is for the season, we must be in the bottom 3 at least for the division? I think Pring has the most assists now with 2, one for JD, and possibly a couple of others from Sykes; and maybe Weimann in that role.

For me, playing wing backs has been muted by NP as both the best way forward defensively, and offensively. It's fair to say that from my viewpoint it's failing on both parts. But there is a stubbornness to change which is both alarming, and depressing in equal measure.

How often over the last 3 months in particular have we broken on both wings for it only to end on an overhit cross, or one not getting past the first defender?

In the 2nd half against WBA we abandoned the midfield altogether, and just hit long balls over the top for the forwards to run into the channels. In what way is that effectively using the wingback system?

We didn't actually change the formation until the last quarter of the game, and by then we had Bell playing in the position that Weimann should have been moved to as soon as the formation stopped being effective.

Semenyeo has been poor for a  number of months ( numerous explanations of course). But I fail to see the rationale of him not coming on until the 80th minute, 5 minutes after we concede the 2nd goal. That is just petulant management, as Semenyeo was up and stripped off just before the 2ng goal, just to be sent back to the bench by NP. He is our one real differential up front, and if you were looking for a player to run the channels, and win those battles with the WBA full backs then it would be him.

The whole of the 2nd half seemed like NP was making points that he's his own man, won't bay to any perceived criticism. Would Atkinson have come on at all, if King hadn't got injured; I'm not so sure.

Surely if you're not scoring the goals, then you have to go back to not conceding as a first fall back. The Einstein quote of " Madness is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result" comes to mind at the moment.

Edited December 28, 2022 by NcnsBcfc

[sh1t_ref_again]

Interesting how we pick the back line, discounting Kalas as not fit

Pring is an easy pick at LWB as performed very well

A little while back we went with our 3 CB's as Tanner (before he got sent off), Vyner & pring which looked very mobile and performed well, therefore I would like to see Tanner, Vyner, Nailsmith, with Naismith replacing Pring as he is at wingback. Vyner played very well in the middle.

For RWB, my 1st instinct would be Skyes, he was part of the run winning team listed at the start of the thread, before being dropped. When he has come on and replaced AW at RWB I think he has been better than AS. The other option could be DaSilva, who did play on that side before, although i am not his biggest fan as a defender.

Skyes Tanner Vyner Naismith Pring - plenty of pace and a very good left side. That gives us Atkinson to come and play LCB and shuffle as necessary.

 

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

As I said on the FBC Podcast @Davefevs I would love to see what our crossing success rate is for the season, we must be in the bottom 3 at least for the division? I think Pring has the most assists now with 2, one for JD, and possibly a couple of others from Sykes; and maybe Weimann in that role.

For me, playing wing backs has been muted by NP as both the best way forward defensively, and offensively. It's fair to say that from my viewpoint it's failing on both parts. But there is a stubbornness to change which is both alarming, and depressing in equal measure.

How often over the last 3 months in particular have we broken on both wings for it only to end on an overhit cross, or one not getting past the first defender?

In the 2nd half against WBA we abandoned the midfield altogether, and just hit long balls over the top for the forwards to run into the channels. In what way is that effectively using the wingback system?

We didn't actually change the formation until the last quarter of the game, and by then we had Bell playing in the position that Weimann should have been moved to as soon as the formation stopped being effective.

Semenyeo has been poor for a  number of months ( numerous explanations of course). But I fail to see the rationale of him not coming on until the 80th minute, 5 minutes after we concede the 2nd goal. That is just petulant management, as Semenyeo was up and stripped off just before the 2ng goal, just to be sent back to the bench by NP. He is our one real differential up front, and if you were looking for a player to run the channels, and win those battles with the WBA full backs then it would be him.

The whole of the 2nd half seemed like NP was making points that he's his own man, won't bay to any perceived criticism. Would Atkinson have come on at all, if King hadn't got injured; I'm not so sure.

Surely if you're not scoring the goals, then you have to go back to not conceding as a first fall back. The Einstein quote of " Madness is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result" comes to mind at the moment.

Surely Ian Gay has that data at his fingertips.  He’s always pushing out stats, although I’m not sure he ever quotes the source.

Whats a successful cross?   A City player making the next contact, a goal, etc???

I think you’ve reached a conclusion but there’s  the stats.  As recently as Stoke, we scored from a cross.  The game before (Rotherham) we scored all three goals from crosses.

FWIW - here’s the breakdown of our goals this season.

That, to me, looks like we score quite a lot from crosses???  I very much doubt that is bottom three, but I don’t know your definition of a successful cross.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Davefevs

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Surely Ian Gay has that data at his fingertips.  He’s always pushing out stats, although I’m not sure he ever quotes the source.

Whats a successful cross?   A City player making the next contact, a goal, etc???

I think you’ve reached a conclusion already without the stats.  As recently as Stoke, we scored from a cross.  The game before (Rotherham) we scored all three goals from crosses.

FWIW - here’s the breakdown of our goals this season.

That, to me, looks like we score quite a lot from crosses???  I very much doubt that is bottom three, but I don’t know your definition of a successful cross.

Made me chuckle about Ian, bless him. I would never say anything on the podcast without knowing my facts/figures.

I know what you mean about a successful cross, and how to measure it. I suppose the impression I have got this season is that JD doesn't have the ability/pace to get past his full back; and when he found himself in space his crossing was generally woeful ( normally overhit). Pring has been a better upgrade, although I kind of liked him as a LCB as well.

On the right hand side, Sykes started off ok. But again in the general his crossing was poor. From memory the crosses at the Rotherham game were from Wells, Conway, and Scott. The first two from the left hand channels. I think Conway was the assister for Weimann at Boro, Wells for Conway against Swansea. Semenyeo for Wells against WBA

Other than the Pring assist against Stoke, and the one for the OG against Millwall (5 mins after replacing JD there); we seem to get very little, if any productivity from the WB positions. Certainly playing Weimann there has reduced his overall contributions to games.

[ray savino]

Apologies, not read all of this, but thought this was the most appropriate thread to put my thoughts on yesterday and generally.

Basically, as many have said, play people in positions that they have knowledge of, i.e. square pegs for square holes etc. Also, even if the individuals aren’t in great form, still go back to the closest line up that has been successful for us. Get them up for a scrap.

I seem to feel that not just NP and other managers we have had, but a lot seem to try to be tactically too clever, try converting/using players in positions beyond their capabilities and nous. I remember McGinnis starting the 2012/13 season in great form, then we got a couple of key injuries and we tried switching things around and it all went downhill. LJ did the same many times, switched around what was successful when there was an injury, etc.

Yes I know, when things are down you sometimes have to try something new, we don’t see what happens in training, etc but we do seem to go away from what has made us decent at times. Remember the high press side of late 2017, yep we burnt out and didn’t necessarily have individuals to replace the knackered individuals at the time. But instead of developing the system and identifying players for that system that was entertaining and had some success, our recruitment seemed generally random and inappropriate for that system.

Most players are rarely so good to continuously play in an unfamiliar position at this level. So many managers say we must get back to basics when it all starts to unravel, but they should at least start by putting players in their most effective positions to occupy the opposition. Let’s start by putting Tanner or Sykes at right wing back (they at least have some defensive experience there) and use Weimann’s energy and movement in a positive way to press and put the opposition on the back foot.

Finally, on the manager debate. I don’t care who’s in charge providing they start to get the turnaround needed and give us something to look forward to watch. I’m unsure about NP’s longterm coaching abilities for this club, however I still hope can still stay (without us going down!) to clear the decks of this comfy, nice club that has always been a backwater since I started following in 1966 (bar around 3 teams during that time - we always lapse back). He’s the only manager that has pretty much told it as it is - the culture has been shit, mediocre at best. If we can get to the summer with the chance of a fresh build to a plan, even with a new coach, decent youngsters, new experienced CEO and stick to a plan and real vision, then I’ll still have some hope.

If the next two games we lose, I think he will be gone, so if we do get a new manager it will have to either be a good stop gap to keep us up then recruit in the summer, or someone who can hit the ground running.

The thing is, I can’t change the team I love. Ha, wish I could sometimes, but it’s my late dad’s fault, so I can’t! 

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That’s because we start our opinions at different levels of expectation based on what he took over.  But it’s about opinions.  

 

I think the Weimann thing has been okay for Weimann in terms of his own performances, and the reason to 1) try to keep Scott in CM and 2) go to a threesome in midfield to protect the back three (certainly whilst Naismith was out).  Scott and Weimann are both better RWBs than Sykes (who is really a AM).

I’m generally an advocate of get your best players on the pitch…but I do agree with a lot of you, that overall it’s not worked for the team.  But there are other dynamics to the decision.

I would also go back to Weimann in behind at this point…partly because Naismith is back (that’s one of the dynamics).  King is also injured, so I’m sure he will go back to the early season three of Vyner / Naismith / Atkinson.  Personally I’d play Tanner at RWB for a bit of feistiness.  Pring gives us physicality too on the other side.  As a five I think that’s better.  Then Scott, James with Weimann in the hole.  I think Tommy might get a rest tomorrow, if Antoine is like a coiled spring.

Nige does deserve some criticism too, but not everything should be blamed on him either.  It’s a collective.  The players got away Scott free on Boxing Day.

I think the other advantage of that back five is that it gives us some solidity that feels much needed whilst we re-discover our attacking form. At the moment it feels like the defensive shape is not getting the best out of a player like Weimann but also negatively impacting on players like Vyner, who spent Monday doing a very good impression of someone unsure where to position himself as he has no confidence at all in where his teammates will be. I think the big issue for me is who to pick in midfield on Thursday - to be honest, I don't think Scott or Williams (or probably James) are really doing enough to deserve to keep their place at the moment but the options are then limited and James, Weimann and Sykes doesn't feel a particularly robust option. 

[Red & Gold]

Back in the day tough tackling midfielders were key to good compact teams but now its about players ability to to trigger press and cut of passing lanes off. 

We dont have the most physical or technical of teams in the league so I think we’ve been at our best when we have been on the front foot pressing aggressively forcing turnovers high up the pitch. Excluding Martin (not really played this year) we have a group of strikers willing to chase down defenders, and they still do, however, when we have a midfield 3 of Scott, Williams and James behind we can’t do this collectively or as a high block as only Scott really has the stamina and pace to do this repeatedly. It means Conway goes on his own or with tentative support from Wells and Scott however,  teams can easily play around a press of 1-3 players. Thus they lose the faith to keep pressing and in some cases better to sit in a  lower block shape as a result. However, When we have a midfield 3 containing at least two runners e.g. Scott, HNM or AW we can press high up the pitch in 5, swamping teams and passing lanes.  I also thought Sykes was effective at this early on in the season.  However, now we look too one pace with the ball and with the press.  There is no point trying to press and not getting there in time which I think happens with Williams and James, thus we can become quite passive. I’m no expert but I thought WBA had a high line yesterday and did what we used to do to teams (at times) really well which is why we had to go long and why our midfielders couldn’t get on the ball. 

HNM is a bit of an enigma  amongst our fans and no doubt his goal and assist output hasn’t been good but he was brilliant at this part of the game and it gave other players the confidence to go with him.  Ive said it before but i do feel James or Williams need him alongside them oven their physical limitations. 

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Made me chuckle about Ian, bless him. I would never say anything on the podcast without knowing my facts/figures.

I know what you mean about a successful cross, and how to measure it. I suppose the impression I have got this season is that JD doesn't have the ability/pace to get past his full back; and when he found himself in space his crossing was generally woeful ( normally overhit). Pring has been a better upgrade, although I kind of liked him as a LCB as well.

On the right hand side, Sykes started off ok. But again in the general his crossing was poor. From memory the crosses at the Rotherham game were from Wells, Conway, and Scott. The first two from the left hand channels. I think Conway was the assister for Weimann at Boro, Wells for Conway against Swansea. Semenyeo for Wells against WBA

Other than the Pring assist against Stoke, and the one for the OG against Millwall (5 mins after replacing JD there); we seem to get very little, if any productivity from the WB positions. Certainly playing Weimann there has reduced his overall contributions to games.

Here’s some more stuff

23 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the other advantage of that back five is that it gives us some solidity that feels much needed whilst we re-discover our attacking form. At the moment it feels like the defensive shape is not getting the best out of a player like Weimann but also negatively impacting on players like Vyner, who spent Monday doing a very good impression of someone unsure where to position himself as he has no confidence at all in where his teammates will be. I think the big issue for me is who to pick in midfield on Thursday - to be honest, I don't think Scott or Williams (or probably James) are really doing enough to deserve to keep their place at the moment but the options are then limited and James, Weimann and Sykes doesn't feel a particularly robust option. 

FWIW I’d play Massengo with Scott, assuming Scott isn’t shagged out (he looked it on BD) and Massengo hasn’t got a deal waiting to go through (pre-contract or sale / loan).  But I don’t think Nige will pick Han.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Surely Ian Gay has that data at his fingertips.  He’s always pushing out stats, although I’m not sure he ever quotes the source.

Whats a successful cross?   A City player making the next contact, a goal, etc???

I think you’ve reached a conclusion but there’s  the stats.  As recently as Stoke, we scored from a cross.  The game before (Rotherham) we scored all three goals from crosses.

FWIW - here’s the breakdown of our goals this season.

That, to me, looks like we score quite a lot from crosses???  I very much doubt that is bottom three, but I don’t know your definition of a successful cross.

You look at that last chart and you have to ask yourself what happened after the Norwich game.

[LondonBristolian]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s some more stuff

FWIW I’d play Massengo with Scott, assuming Scott isn’t shagged out (he looked it on BD) and Massengo hasn’t got a deal waiting to go through (pre-contract or sale / loan).  But I don’t think Nige will pick Han.

I’d pick Massengo too but discounted him as, like you, I don’t think it will happen.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, spudski said:

You look at that last chart and you have to ask yourself what happened after the Norwich game.

Correlation or Causation…

…James got injured, then Naismith did and those two defeats dented confidence.

I do think they played a part, but a bit more correlation than causation imho.

I think we all thought Semenyo’s return from injury and his goals off the bench would fire us again.

Football is a ****er

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Correlation or Causation…

…James got injured, then Naismith did and those two defeats dented confidence.

I do think they played a part, but a bit more correlation than causation imho.

I think we all thought Semenyo’s return from injury and his goals off the bench would fire us again.

Football is a ****er

Mixture of that and generally outperforming our baseline quality in the first place IMO.