Difference to earlier in the season?

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

As I said on the FBC Podcast @Davefevs I would love to see what our crossing success rate is for the season, we must be in the bottom 3 at least for the division? I think Pring has the most assists now with 2, one for JD, and possibly a couple of others from Sykes; and maybe Weimann in that role.

For me, playing wing backs has been muted by NP as both the best way forward defensively, and offensively. It's fair to say that from my viewpoint it's failing on both parts. But there is a stubbornness to change which is both alarming, and depressing in equal measure.

How often over the last 3 months in particular have we broken on both wings for it only to end on an overhit cross, or one not getting past the first defender?

In the 2nd half against WBA we abandoned the midfield altogether, and just hit long balls over the top for the forwards to run into the channels. In what way is that effectively using the wingback system?

We didn't actually change the formation until the last quarter of the game, and by then we had Bell playing in the position that Weimann should have been moved to as soon as the formation stopped being effective.

Semenyeo has been poor for a  number of months ( numerous explanations of course). But I fail to see the rationale of him not coming on until the 80th minute, 5 minutes after we concede the 2nd goal. That is just petulant management, as Semenyeo was up and stripped off just before the 2ng goal, just to be sent back to the bench by NP. He is our one real differential up front, and if you were looking for a player to run the channels, and win those battles with the WBA full backs then it would be him.

The whole of the 2nd half seemed like NP was making points that he's his own man, won't bay to any perceived criticism. Would Atkinson have come on at all, if King hadn't got injured; I'm not so sure.

Surely if you're not scoring the goals, then you have to go back to not conceding as a first fall back. The Einstein quote of " Madness is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result" comes to mind at the moment.

Surely Ian Gay has that data at his fingertips.  He’s always pushing out stats, although I’m not sure he ever quotes the source.

Whats a successful cross?   A City player making the next contact, a goal, etc???

I think you’ve reached a conclusion but there’s  the stats.  As recently as Stoke, we scored from a cross.  The game before (Rotherham) we scored all three goals from crosses.

FWIW - here’s the breakdown of our goals this season.

That, to me, looks like we score quite a lot from crosses???  I very much doubt that is bottom three, but I don’t know your definition of a successful cross.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Davefevs

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Surely Ian Gay has that data at his fingertips.  He’s always pushing out stats, although I’m not sure he ever quotes the source.

Whats a successful cross?   A City player making the next contact, a goal, etc???

I think you’ve reached a conclusion already without the stats.  As recently as Stoke, we scored from a cross.  The game before (Rotherham) we scored all three goals from crosses.

FWIW - here’s the breakdown of our goals this season.

That, to me, looks like we score quite a lot from crosses???  I very much doubt that is bottom three, but I don’t know your definition of a successful cross.

Made me chuckle about Ian, bless him. I would never say anything on the podcast without knowing my facts/figures.

I know what you mean about a successful cross, and how to measure it. I suppose the impression I have got this season is that JD doesn't have the ability/pace to get past his full back; and when he found himself in space his crossing was generally woeful ( normally overhit). Pring has been a better upgrade, although I kind of liked him as a LCB as well.

On the right hand side, Sykes started off ok. But again in the general his crossing was poor. From memory the crosses at the Rotherham game were from Wells, Conway, and Scott. The first two from the left hand channels. I think Conway was the assister for Weimann at Boro, Wells for Conway against Swansea. Semenyeo for Wells against WBA

Other than the Pring assist against Stoke, and the one for the OG against Millwall (5 mins after replacing JD there); we seem to get very little, if any productivity from the WB positions. Certainly playing Weimann there has reduced his overall contributions to games.

[ray savino]

Apologies, not read all of this, but thought this was the most appropriate thread to put my thoughts on yesterday and generally.

Basically, as many have said, play people in positions that they have knowledge of, i.e. square pegs for square holes etc. Also, even if the individuals aren’t in great form, still go back to the closest line up that has been successful for us. Get them up for a scrap.

I seem to feel that not just NP and other managers we have had, but a lot seem to try to be tactically too clever, try converting/using players in positions beyond their capabilities and nous. I remember McGinnis starting the 2012/13 season in great form, then we got a couple of key injuries and we tried switching things around and it all went downhill. LJ did the same many times, switched around what was successful when there was an injury, etc.

Yes I know, when things are down you sometimes have to try something new, we don’t see what happens in training, etc but we do seem to go away from what has made us decent at times. Remember the high press side of late 2017, yep we burnt out and didn’t necessarily have individuals to replace the knackered individuals at the time. But instead of developing the system and identifying players for that system that was entertaining and had some success, our recruitment seemed generally random and inappropriate for that system.

Most players are rarely so good to continuously play in an unfamiliar position at this level. So many managers say we must get back to basics when it all starts to unravel, but they should at least start by putting players in their most effective positions to occupy the opposition. Let’s start by putting Tanner or Sykes at right wing back (they at least have some defensive experience there) and use Weimann’s energy and movement in a positive way to press and put the opposition on the back foot.

Finally, on the manager debate. I don’t care who’s in charge providing they start to get the turnaround needed and give us something to look forward to watch. I’m unsure about NP’s longterm coaching abilities for this club, however I still hope can still stay (without us going down!) to clear the decks of this comfy, nice club that has always been a backwater since I started following in 1966 (bar around 3 teams during that time - we always lapse back). He’s the only manager that has pretty much told it as it is - the culture has been shit, mediocre at best. If we can get to the summer with the chance of a fresh build to a plan, even with a new coach, decent youngsters, new experienced CEO and stick to a plan and real vision, then I’ll still have some hope.

If the next two games we lose, I think he will be gone, so if we do get a new manager it will have to either be a good stop gap to keep us up then recruit in the summer, or someone who can hit the ground running.

The thing is, I can’t change the team I love. Ha, wish I could sometimes, but it’s my late dad’s fault, so I can’t! 

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That’s because we start our opinions at different levels of expectation based on what he took over.  But it’s about opinions.  

 

I think the Weimann thing has been okay for Weimann in terms of his own performances, and the reason to 1) try to keep Scott in CM and 2) go to a threesome in midfield to protect the back three (certainly whilst Naismith was out).  Scott and Weimann are both better RWBs than Sykes (who is really a AM).

I’m generally an advocate of get your best players on the pitch…but I do agree with a lot of you, that overall it’s not worked for the team.  But there are other dynamics to the decision.

I would also go back to Weimann in behind at this point…partly because Naismith is back (that’s one of the dynamics).  King is also injured, so I’m sure he will go back to the early season three of Vyner / Naismith / Atkinson.  Personally I’d play Tanner at RWB for a bit of feistiness.  Pring gives us physicality too on the other side.  As a five I think that’s better.  Then Scott, James with Weimann in the hole.  I think Tommy might get a rest tomorrow, if Antoine is like a coiled spring.

Nige does deserve some criticism too, but not everything should be blamed on him either.  It’s a collective.  The players got away Scott free on Boxing Day.

I think the other advantage of that back five is that it gives us some solidity that feels much needed whilst we re-discover our attacking form. At the moment it feels like the defensive shape is not getting the best out of a player like Weimann but also negatively impacting on players like Vyner, who spent Monday doing a very good impression of someone unsure where to position himself as he has no confidence at all in where his teammates will be. I think the big issue for me is who to pick in midfield on Thursday - to be honest, I don't think Scott or Williams (or probably James) are really doing enough to deserve to keep their place at the moment but the options are then limited and James, Weimann and Sykes doesn't feel a particularly robust option. 

[Red & Gold]

Back in the day tough tackling midfielders were key to good compact teams but now its about players ability to to trigger press and cut of passing lanes off. 

We dont have the most physical or technical of teams in the league so I think we’ve been at our best when we have been on the front foot pressing aggressively forcing turnovers high up the pitch. Excluding Martin (not really played this year) we have a group of strikers willing to chase down defenders, and they still do, however, when we have a midfield 3 of Scott, Williams and James behind we can’t do this collectively or as a high block as only Scott really has the stamina and pace to do this repeatedly. It means Conway goes on his own or with tentative support from Wells and Scott however,  teams can easily play around a press of 1-3 players. Thus they lose the faith to keep pressing and in some cases better to sit in a  lower block shape as a result. However, When we have a midfield 3 containing at least two runners e.g. Scott, HNM or AW we can press high up the pitch in 5, swamping teams and passing lanes.  I also thought Sykes was effective at this early on in the season.  However, now we look too one pace with the ball and with the press.  There is no point trying to press and not getting there in time which I think happens with Williams and James, thus we can become quite passive. I’m no expert but I thought WBA had a high line yesterday and did what we used to do to teams (at times) really well which is why we had to go long and why our midfielders couldn’t get on the ball. 

HNM is a bit of an enigma  amongst our fans and no doubt his goal and assist output hasn’t been good but he was brilliant at this part of the game and it gave other players the confidence to go with him.  Ive said it before but i do feel James or Williams need him alongside them oven their physical limitations. 

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Made me chuckle about Ian, bless him. I would never say anything on the podcast without knowing my facts/figures.

I know what you mean about a successful cross, and how to measure it. I suppose the impression I have got this season is that JD doesn't have the ability/pace to get past his full back; and when he found himself in space his crossing was generally woeful ( normally overhit). Pring has been a better upgrade, although I kind of liked him as a LCB as well.

On the right hand side, Sykes started off ok. But again in the general his crossing was poor. From memory the crosses at the Rotherham game were from Wells, Conway, and Scott. The first two from the left hand channels. I think Conway was the assister for Weimann at Boro, Wells for Conway against Swansea. Semenyeo for Wells against WBA

Other than the Pring assist against Stoke, and the one for the OG against Millwall (5 mins after replacing JD there); we seem to get very little, if any productivity from the WB positions. Certainly playing Weimann there has reduced his overall contributions to games.

Here’s some more stuff

23 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the other advantage of that back five is that it gives us some solidity that feels much needed whilst we re-discover our attacking form. At the moment it feels like the defensive shape is not getting the best out of a player like Weimann but also negatively impacting on players like Vyner, who spent Monday doing a very good impression of someone unsure where to position himself as he has no confidence at all in where his teammates will be. I think the big issue for me is who to pick in midfield on Thursday - to be honest, I don't think Scott or Williams (or probably James) are really doing enough to deserve to keep their place at the moment but the options are then limited and James, Weimann and Sykes doesn't feel a particularly robust option. 

FWIW I’d play Massengo with Scott, assuming Scott isn’t shagged out (he looked it on BD) and Massengo hasn’t got a deal waiting to go through (pre-contract or sale / loan).  But I don’t think Nige will pick Han.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Surely Ian Gay has that data at his fingertips.  He’s always pushing out stats, although I’m not sure he ever quotes the source.

Whats a successful cross?   A City player making the next contact, a goal, etc???

I think you’ve reached a conclusion but there’s  the stats.  As recently as Stoke, we scored from a cross.  The game before (Rotherham) we scored all three goals from crosses.

FWIW - here’s the breakdown of our goals this season.

That, to me, looks like we score quite a lot from crosses???  I very much doubt that is bottom three, but I don’t know your definition of a successful cross.

You look at that last chart and you have to ask yourself what happened after the Norwich game.

[LondonBristolian]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s some more stuff

FWIW I’d play Massengo with Scott, assuming Scott isn’t shagged out (he looked it on BD) and Massengo hasn’t got a deal waiting to go through (pre-contract or sale / loan).  But I don’t think Nige will pick Han.

I’d pick Massengo too but discounted him as, like you, I don’t think it will happen.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, spudski said:

You look at that last chart and you have to ask yourself what happened after the Norwich game.

Correlation or Causation…

…James got injured, then Naismith did and those two defeats dented confidence.

I do think they played a part, but a bit more correlation than causation imho.

I think we all thought Semenyo’s return from injury and his goals off the bench would fire us again.

Football is a ****er

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Correlation or Causation…

…James got injured, then Naismith did and those two defeats dented confidence.

I do think they played a part, but a bit more correlation than causation imho.

I think we all thought Semenyo’s return from injury and his goals off the bench would fire us again.

Football is a ****er

Mixture of that and generally outperforming our baseline quality in the first place IMO.