Vyner

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

It is because in some ways it reminds me of me, I wasn’t the most physical CB either in terms of “nailing” my opponent.  I relied on winning stuff in the air and making them play the way they face.  I didn’t get rolled though, because I learned from an ex-City player how not to get felt.

He's 25 now and he is maturing.  Hes a slow learner reminds me a lot of Lewis. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Thought Zak was a lot better than simply avoiding making mistakes, lots of good tackles, positioning and dealt with the ball well when he had it. Not perfect - and agree he can improve how close he gets to opponents with their back to goal - but not sure anyone, including Cam, achieved that. Thought the commentary and the match day thread went overboard on the booking, a central defender getting booked seemed to require an automatic substitution to avoid a red card, which it turned out was an unnecessary concern, as one of the best strikers in the division became ever less influential. 

I rarely read the MDT real time.  Reading it back after the match is an eye-opener at times!

[Davefevs]

Just now, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

He's 25 now and he is maturing.  Hes a slow learner reminds me a lot of Lewis. 

Yep, coming into his best years as a CB.  I never saw Carey play much, but I can see why you’d make the comparison.

He really is better than “League One at best” isn’t he?

[Engvall’s Splinter]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Vyner is a crazy one atm, I think a lot of our fans want him to come good and whilst he's definitely improved it's frustrating seeing people say he was MoM today when Pring was another gravy today. Vyner was better today for sure, but on three occasions he got tight to a defender and gave away fouls leaving space behind him of which one of those fouls put him on a yellow which forced him to be more cautious. The commentary team picked up on it too, he kept pushing into the back of his man and whilst it didn't cost us a player like Semenyo lives for those kinds of defenders as one quick turn when receiving the ball leaves the defender flat footed.
I don't want to bring negatives to Vyner because he's been through so much but it's also frustrating seeing people get carried away because he's not made any major mistakes. Vyner is capable but he's still making the odd bad decision that is getting overlooked because it's not cost us. Also his decision to keep playing long balls down the wing is frustrating, this may not be down to him, this could be what Peason has told him to do but it rarely does anything other than give away the possession.

Pring on the other hand, dangerous going forward, solid in defence, was taking players on, strong on the ball, he had the best performance by far.

Superb post and exactly my thoughts. The guy has significantly improved and is performing well, yet I think the lower expectations we’ve become accustomed to have allowed a few posters to get slightly carried away. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Engvall’s Splinter

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, coming into his best years as a CB.  I never saw Carey play much, but I can see why you’d make the comparison.

He really is better than “League One at best” isn’t he?

Vyner cuts it at this level, and will get better at this level I think.  Lewis was a far better player in his later years, and did very well for us even though he was in out of the side at times for periods.

[megansdad]

nothing to do with expectations Vyner was excellent today, as were several others. Some very solid defending, several crucial interventions and some really good passes forward

[italian dave]

29 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Thought Zak was a lot better than simply avoiding making mistakes, lots of good tackles, positioning and dealt with the ball well when he had it. Not perfect - and agree he can improve how close he gets to opponents with their back to goal - but not sure anyone, including Cam, achieved that. Thought the commentary and the match day thread went overboard on the booking, a central defender getting booked seemed to require an automatic substitution to avoid a red card, which it turned out was an unnecessary concern, as one of the best strikers in the division became ever less influential. 

Completely agree. He’s not perfect; none of our players are. But solid again, and that tackle second half was up there with the very best. I really thought we were going to concede: if that had been a Morocco defender in the world cup we’d have seen it time after time. 

[Bris Red]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, coming into his best years as a CB.  I never saw Carey play much, but I can see why you’d make the comparison.

He really is better than “League One at best” isn’t he?

I must say i was always in the ‘Vyner is league one at best’ camp but fair play to him he has really come on the past few months and proved the doubters (myself included) all massively wrong.

I think its definitely a confidence thing with Zac. You can see him literally go within himself after a bad touch or pass but equally when he does something well and he senses the crowd’s positive response he looks a different player. He is growing into a very solid championship player.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Bris Red

[Numero Uno]

Just now, Bris Red said:

I must say i was always in the ‘Vyner is league one at best’ camp but fair play to him he has really come on the past few months and proved the doubters (myself included) all massively wrong.

I think its definitely a confidence thing with Zac. You can see him literally go within himself after a bad touch or pass but equally when he does something well and he senses the crowd’s positive response he looks a different player. 

Shows the influence that fans can have on players. They aren’t oblivious to the fact they are getting loads of stick in the stands in the same way that when they have a few good games and the flak isn’t coming their way they also pick up on that, can relax a bit and show what they can do.

[Kolsch]

Excellent again today, one of the first names on the team sheet now. Well done Zak!

[ExiledAjax]

14 hours ago, Spike said:

Vyner is a crazy one atm, I think a lot of our fans want him to come good and whilst he's definitely improved it's frustrating seeing people say he was MoM today when Pring was another gravy today. Vyner was better today for sure, but on three occasions he got tight to a defender and gave away fouls leaving space behind him of which one of those fouls put him on a yellow which forced him to be more cautious. The commentary team picked up on it too, he kept pushing into the back of his man and whilst it didn't cost us a player like Semenyo lives for those kinds of defenders as one quick turn when receiving the ball leaves the defender flat footed.
I don't want to bring negatives to Vyner because he's been through so much but it's also frustrating seeing people get carried away because he's not made any major mistakes. Vyner is capable but he's still making the odd bad decision that is getting overlooked because it's not cost us. Also his decision to keep playing long balls down the wing is frustrating, this may not be down to him, this could be what Peason has told him to do but it rarely does anything other than give away the possession.

Pring on the other hand, dangerous going forward, solid in defence, was taking players on, strong on the ball, he had the best performance by far.

It's right and fair to highlight Pring's good performance last night. It's also fair to highlight the areas where Vyner could still improve, because there are a few. Pring and Vyner were both good last night, and perhaps I do have a soft spot for a player previously slated coming good and proving people wrong.

However, Vyner has undoubtedly improved hugely. He has cut out the majority of the silly errors he can be prone to. His distribution is better. He seems to have grown physically as well.

I therefore make my comment about player of the season for a few reasons. 

1. Presence. Vyner has the most minutes of any player this season. He's played 2,218 league minutes (transfermarkt) of a maximum possible 2,340.

2. Improvement. I do take improvement into consideration when picking POTY. Vyner's massively improved.

3. Consistency. A hard one to quantify but on whoscored he's got an average rating of 6.65 and a spread of 5.67 to 7.48. So based on that he's just been putting in solid if unspectacular performances.

Pring has been excellent in the 870 minutes he's played. Given he missed the first dozen or so games I don't think he can really be in the conversation...yet.

[Topper 123]

I thought defence and vyner In particular was very good -a little bit square and flat at times allowing through balls that caused a slight problem but in whole very well drilled ,what’s happened to klose he was mr reliable last season and steadied the ship many a time , my grip is we still lack a shot on goal we seem to try walk it in net , Alex Scott needs to carry 10 yards and pull trigger more 

[sglosbcfc]

I'm not trying to be clever after the event, because I didn't think Vyner was going to cut it as a defender in the Championship. However, a lot of seem to have forgotten that defenders have their 'peak years' later than midfielders and strikers. It is not unusual for defenders to play their best seasons between the ages of 28-32. By that rationale, Vyner can continue to improve and be a vital part of our back 3/4 for seasons to come. Well done Zak.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Whilst 532/5212 has caused it’s challenges/supporter teeth gnashing about square pegs in round holes, think Zak has benefited. A bit of extra cover around him, particularly when RWB has some defensive proclivity, but also allowing him to spend more time on the ball, seems to suit him. Also think watching Naismith may have helped, he’s not Naismith yet and maybe never will be, but in the last couple of games it looks as if we’ve 3 CB’s who can bring the ball out, with confidence there’ll be cover behind (James key to that as well). Just need to make sure not too much distance between back 8 and front 3, a couple of times yesterday in the second half when the gap was too wide in my view. 

[Vidal]

I have to be honest I never thought he would make it in the championship, deserves massive credit for stepping up, he needs to maintain this though. 

[Davefevs]

I think there is a big problem in evaluating players like Zak.

According to Transfermarkt, he’s played 137 times in the Championship.

31 for Rotherham

106 for City

Until the season under Holden, his earlier games were all aged 22 and under, very much developing.  He was 21 when at loan at Rotherham in a struggling team that got relegated.

His last two seasons and part of his real breakthrough season have been in struggling teams, where our defence has been heavily criticised.  He has received some of that criticism, in some cases rightly so.

But I don’t think you play 100+ games at this level without having some level of competence / ability.  It all depends how you judge him.  Would be nail down a starting place in a top 6 team?  I doubt it, but could he be a squad member in midfield third team?  Absolutely.  Will he be an auto pick for that team?  Possibly, possibly not.

Championship squads aren’t made up of 22 players, two for each position, of equal ability, they are made up of mixed ability players.  Even within our own squad we have that, Zak isn’t one of our best / better players, but he’s still a part of a Championship squad, and currently playing decently whilst improving too.

How we rate him is always gonna be subjective, but I do think his volume of appearances deserves some credit!!

[Numero Uno]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think there is a big problem in evaluating players like Zak.

According to Transfermarkt, he’s played 137 times in the Championship.

31 for Rotherham

106 for City

Until the season under Holden, his earlier games were all aged 22 and under, very much developing.  He was 21 when at loan at Rotherham in a struggling team that got relegated.

His last two seasons and part of his real breakthrough season have been in struggling teams, where our defence has been heavily criticised.  He has received some of that criticism, in some cases rightly so.

But I don’t think you play 100+ games at this level without having some level of competence / ability.  It all depends how you judge him.  Would be nail down a starting place in a top 6 team?  I doubt it, but could he be a squad member in midfield third team?  Absolutely.  Will he be an auto pick for that team?  Possibly, possibly not.

Championship squads aren’t made up of 22 players, two for each position, of equal ability, they are made up of mixed ability players.  Even within our own squad we have that, Zak isn’t one of our best / better players, but he’s still a part of a Championship squad, and currently playing decently whilst improving too.

How we rate him is always gonna be subjective, but I do think his volume of appearances deserves some credit!!

The world is full of footballers who made a bright start in their first 5-10 games at a level and then two years later are playing levels below. I was visiting family after Xmas and went to watch Donny beat Rochdale where Liam Kelly was turning out for the away side. Kelly is two years older than Vyner and was getting rave reviews when he was at Reading not so long back but never kicked on. Goes with your point that once you’ve played 100+ games and counting at a level you can say you are or were at the level.

[Tony Tootle]

I believe that Vyners continued improvement is down to the management of Pearson.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

The world is full of footballers who made a bright start in their first 5-10 games at a level and then two years later are playing levels below. I was visiting family after Xmas and went to watch Donny beat Rochdale where Liam Kelly was turning out for the away side. Kelly is two years older than Vyner and was getting rave reviews when he was at Reading not so long back but never kicked on. Goes with your point that once you’ve played 100+ games and counting at a level you can say you are or were at the level.

Remember him on loan at Bath City too…he went to Holland / Belgium iirc after Reading.