Everton FFP- yes

[Mr Popodopolous]

If found guilty, the Premier League have recommended their sanction..up to the Panel of course.

*A 12 point deduction as per Telegraph !?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/10/25/everton-premier-league-12-point-deduction-ffp-punishment/

*If found guilty and if the Panel concur.

[Bristol Rob]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If found guilty, the Premier League have recommended their sanction..up to the Panel of course.

*A 12 point deduction as per Telegraph !?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/10/25/everton-premier-league-12-point-deduction-ffp-punishment/

*If found guilty and if the Panel concur.

Surprised they've suggested a points deduction rather than a hefty financial pen.

The points deduction opens the doors for all manner of fruitless litigation from relegated clubs. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said:

Surprised they've suggested a points deduction rather than a hefty financial pen.

The points deduction opens the doors for all manner of fruitless litigation from relegated clubs. 

It's an appropriate sanction.

Overspending leads to competitive advantage therefore points taken off, transfer restrictions and or Business Plans, are a wholly appropriate set of remedies, in order to:

*Punish the wrongdoing

*Vindicate the compliant

*Deter or seek to deter, those who may push the rules.

Point 2, Wolves especially who offloaded massively this summer this would vindicate them and they could turn round to their fans and say "See!".

The other stuff is altogether messier, compensation claims or otherwise.

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's an appropriate sanction.

Overspending leads to competitive advantage therefore points taken off, transfer restrictions and or Business Plans, are a wholly appropriate set of remedies, in order to:

*Punish the wrongdoing

*Vindicate the compliant

*Deter or seek to deter, those who may push the rules.

Point 2, Wolves especially who offloaded massively this summer this would vindicate them and they could turn round to their fans and say "See!".

The other stuff is altogether messier, compensation claims or otherwise.

Absolutely they should receive the harshest possible footballing sanctioning. 

Had they not of breached ffp, they'd have beeb relegated. No ifs or buts about it. So their 'cheating' has led to them getting a competitive advantage and earned them more premier league money. 

 

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

The points deduction opens the doors for all manner of fruitless litigation from relegated clubs. 

Has to go through Arbitration with limited recourse to the Courts - Part X of the Premier League regulations - in particular X.2 and X.37 on pages 281 and 286.

Arbitration is generally confidential between the parties.

PL_Handbook_2023-24_DIGITAL_29.08.23.pdf (premierleague.com)

Edited October 25, 2023 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

Everton are reportedly confident they are compliant.

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-big-update-today-on-everton-and-potential-12-point-deduction-as-hearing-continues/

[Mr Popodopolous]

Simon Jordan thinks they will not however there is a key point he doesn't quite cover correctly.

From about 05:40 there is a significant point missed here.

The crux isn't even so much the £90m- think it was £82m in those 2 main years and £8m in 2021-22.

The indirect losses are really important. Transfer market etc- these take the main 2 years from £82m to £170m..perhaps even rising to £220m

In other words, £88-138m. If only directly attributed losses were included then Everton fail for sure. 100% I'm sure.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

While I am at it, Stoke did something very similar. Some minimum 2/3 of their losses were attributed to the transfer market in respect of impairment and inability to offload. 2/3 to 70% if you look closely.

Nottingham Forest and Fulham potentially similar but less so. I think Fulham may have been within limits anyway even if you look again at their £20m Covid impairment.

Nottingham Forest look broadly fine across 2019-20 and 2020-21, the projected one of £12m in 2021-22 however looks very sketchy. 50% more than either 2 actual Covid years. It has not broken down exactly what areas they were in but revenue seems to have rebounded nicely in 2021-22.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Surprise surprise, last couple of days.

Peter Reid last week and Michael Ball today have both come our and said how unfair it would be. Both Evertonians, Reid especially prominent of the 2. 

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2023/10/27/peter-reid-blasts-premier-league-for-crazy-points-deduction-demands-in-everton-ffp-case/

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2023/10/31/michael-ball-disgusted-by-potential-catastrophic-12-point-deduction-for-everton/

Their words are just noise really, and not fully unbiased either so hopefully wouldn't carry any weight. Definitely shouldn't.

[bcfc01]

12 points deduction will have no effect on Everton imo.

Luton, Burnley, and Sheff.Utd will see to that.

 

 

[SecretSam]

5 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

12 points deduction will have no effect on Everton imo.

Luton, Burnley, and Sheff.Utd will see to that.

 

 

Bournemouth too, unless something miraculous happens.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd say the sooner the better really.

Had it been handed down psychologically when still on 7 points. Down to the bottom, 6 off even 2nd bottom..sides around the bottom still to play each other in the Autumn and winter.

Going into West Ham away that bit trickier.  The key for a deduction is that the earlier you can get it, the less points in the bank the based it can be psychologically to overcome.

If margins are tight this is less applicable but if Everton win another game or 2 before the International break and then -12 handed down..It has less effort than had it been a week ago say.

[ExiledAjax]

On 01/11/2023 at 08:23, bcfc01 said:

12 points deduction will have no effect on Everton imo.

Luton, Burnley, and Sheff.Utd will see to that.

In the last few seasons a 12 point deduction would on occasion have relegated teams finishing as high as 11th.

It would have relegated Everton last season, and the season prior to that.

If they keep going at 1 point per game it would take them from 38 down to 26, almost certainly enough to relegate anyone in any season.

It's a huge deduction if it lands, at any stage of the season.

Edited November 2, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[bcfc01]

7 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

In the last few seasons a 12 point deduction would on occasion have relegated teams finishing as high as 11th.

It would have relegated Everton last season, and the season prior to that.

If they keep going at 1 point per game it would take them from 38 down to 26, almost certainly enough to relegate anyone in any season.

It's a huge deduction if it lands, at any stage of the season.

 

If you are going to use PPG as an indication;

Bournemouth PPG .6

Luton PPG .5

Burnley PPG .4

Sheffield Utd PPG .1

Everton would survive easily imo - by a long way.

 

 

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

If you are going to use PPG as an indication;

Bournemouth PPG .6

Luton PPG .5

Burnley PPG .4

Sheffield Utd PPG .1

Everton would survive easily imo - by a long way.

True, and I accept that PPG is a worse indicator the earlier in the season we are, but it could either be massively underestimating or over estimating likely finishing totals.

Hence I looked at the totals from past seasons.

I'm pretty sure the average for 17th is roughly 35 points. So to budget for a hit of-12 they need to target 47ish points - 1.23 points per game. Seems easy but dipping below that isn't hard in the PL.

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

 

If you are going to use PPG as an indication;

Bournemouth PPG .6

Luton PPG .5

Burnley PPG .4

Sheffield Utd PPG .1

Everton would survive easily imo - by a long way.

 

 

That's why it is about timing too. That win at West Ham could be rather important psychologically, reaching double figures.

Had the points been rocked laat week, plummeted to-5, 6 off 2nd bottom and a bit of a mountain and 10 off safety. Now a bit less so.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Baba Yaga]

I was looking into this last week and Everton/Luton have had better fixtures than Bournemouth/Burnley. I believe Everton have already lost at home to Fulham, Wolves and Luton and are the 1 team who drew with Sheff Utd. If Calvert Lewin gets injured then they are with problems, still look like staying up at moment but I doubt by such a big margin. Also I expect Luton to not pick up too many more pts before xmas despite them having a respectable start I would say.

[frenchred]

Deducted 10 points immediately 

[luke_bristol]

For breach of FFP regs

just breaking now on the BBC

[The Gasbuster]

What’s the betting they appeal , and then get the points reinstated ?

[Super]

When can we expect Man City's punishment?

[CityReds]

That puts them 2 points from safety

Farcical really given they should be in the Championship, without that spending it’s assured they would have gone down last year

[The Coach]

And all goes quiet on Man City and Chelsea…

[pillred]

3 minutes ago, CityReds said:

That puts them 2 points from safety

Farcical really given they should be in the Championship, without that spending it’s assured they would have gone down last year

I make it 5 points.

[Markthehorn]

3 minutes ago, CityReds said:

That puts them 2 points from safety

Farcical really given they should be in the Championship, without that spending it’s assured they would have gone down last year

Exactly- hardly a punishment really .

[Show Me The Money!]

It's going to open a can of worms. There must be lots of teams who have broken FFP in the past and they've done nothing about it. Only now the government are threatening an independent body are they looking to show they can enforce the rules they setup.

Bet Man City get away with nothing.

Everton my second club so not views maybe as little biased 

On the plus side Everton are actually looking a reasonable team this year and with the 3 new teams really struggling it's probably a good year for them to get hit with this

[Lrrr]

The points deduction means nothing as they’ll climb out soon again, what will be more interesting is if the effected clubs who lost out on PL survival as a result will try and take them to court over lost earnings suffered from relegation. The PL has effectively found them guilty. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's a landmark decision.

I'm happy to see it but it should have been higher probably, Written Reasons will explain all.

[chinapig]

In their angry response Everton at no point actually deny that they breached FFP.

And if 777 Partners want to sue for damages I assume they would have to at least delay their takeover since the regs do not allow clubs to go to the Courts or CAS.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/17/everton-deducted-10-points-premier-league-guilty-financial-fair-play-breach

[CityReds]

1 minute ago, pillred said:

I make it 5 points.

Everton now on 4, Luton on 6 but Everton have 9 goal advantage