Everton FFP- yes

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thought it was £15m or so but I'll defer!

Yes that is interesting, though they also picked up Tarkowski on a free which I guess will have annoyed Burnley that bit more?

I'd say maybe a damages claim revenue losses probably £50-60m for Burnley if everything was proven. Simple extrapolation of TV and other revenue fallen but not considered whether a different formula should be used.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Once again, some of them are quite out of touch. Won't bother to print screen but such claims as:

*"Even an embargo would be ott"

*"Premier League wouldn't dare challenge an audit opinion". Or words to that effect.

*"Why dock points from a solvent club".

*"Only one breach, why dock points? Compared to Man City".

Football League have done all this and more in their FFP cases. They very much challenged Derby and their audited accounts and with m Sheffield Wednesday they wouldn't accept the allocation of the stadium sale to 2017-18, they were correctly vindicated for this but Shaun Harvey didn't help issues one bit.

Some also say that the effects of the Ukraine war mean that they should have the £30m USM income added back. The fact that these deals were dubious especially the naming rights option in the 1st place has escaped their attention?

Some of the arrogance is quite nauseating. Won't let me post the URL for some reason.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://theesk.org/2023/03/25/referral-by-the-premier-league-ps-explained-the-potential-consequences/

The Esk is often quite good value and he is here too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Matt Hughes, apologies for the source of paper but he's good on this kinda thing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11901997/Premier-League-questioned-flight-clubs-decision-charge-Everton.htm

They're spot on, it took them 9 months to refer...any Sporting Sanctions if applicable would refer to next season by the sound. Indeed serious doubts were raised last March.

They're quite insular and ill-informed on that Everton fan site about these issues but maybe the PL do it differently:

1) Sure @Coppello once said the PL can hold a clubs hands Inn the market.

2) If they bothered to do a bit of research do you strictly speaking need the audited accounts to charge? Possibly yes and possibly no- for Birmingham projections to end of June 2018 went in during March 2018 as always. Within a week to 10 days, maybe 2 weeks the Projections went into the League. Same with Derby in 2018 and 2019.

Birmingham referred 2nd August 2018 and officially referred in mid to late August 2018.

Why it took until the penultimate week of March when Everton were already on the FFP radar is baffling.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Matt Hughes, apologies for the source of paper but he's good on this kinda thing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11901997/Premier-League-questioned-flight-clubs-decision-charge-Everton.htm

They're spot on, it took them 9 months to refer...any Sporting Sanctions if applicable would refer to next season by the sound. Indeed serious doubts were raised last March.

They're quite insular and ill-informed on that Everton fan site about these issues but maybe the PL do it differently:

1) Sure @Coppello once said the PL can hold a clubs hands Inn the market.

2) If they bothered to do a bit of research do you strictly speaking need the audited accounts to charge? Possibly yes and possibly no- for Birmingham projections to end of June 2018 went in during March 2018 as always. Within a week to 10 days, maybe 2 weeks the Projections went into the League. Same with Derby in 2018 and 2019.

Birmingham referred 2nd August 2018 and officially referred in mid to late August 2018.

Why it took until the penultimate week of March when Everton were already on the FFP radar is baffling.

I haven't looked at the rules and regs on this but I wonder what the deal is if a points deductions is decided by the PL this season, would it then apply in the EFL next season? Obviously considering that Everton are still very much in the relegation conversation.

Do the PL and EFL have an agreement that points deductions will be carried across the cliff edge? The alternative is I guess that the points deduction would apply in Everton's next PL season?

I genuinely don't know. Don't think there's a precedent.

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

if a points deductions is decided by the PL this season, would it then apply in the EFL next season?

It's supposed to.  Whether it actually happens in reality is something which nobody knows the answer to.

[ExiledAjax]

17 minutes ago, Hxj said:

It's supposed to.  Whether it actually happens in reality is something which nobody knows the answer to.

I assumed it should. I've just not looked at the relevant parts of the two sets of regs for ages. May well be a moot point but one always asks the question.

Edited March 25, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I haven't looked at the rules and regs on this but I wonder what the deal is if a points deductions is decided by the PL this season, would it then apply in the EFL next season? Obviously considering that Everton are still very much in the relegation conversation.

Do the PL and EFL have an agreement that points deductions will be carried across the cliff edge? The alternative is I guess that the points deduction would apply in Everton's next PL season?

I genuinely don't know. Don't think there's a precedent.

No precedent yep.

13 minutes ago, Hxj said:

It's supposed to.  Whether it actually happens in reality is something which nobody knows the answer to.

Nobody truly knows as you say, possibly the advent of the CFRP would assist in this regard.

Given how much stricter the Football League are on FFP that would not be Everton's only issue, far from it...their losses accoss 2021-22 and 2022-23 would dictate their allowable losses and expenditure in 2023-24 and if the FFI applicable maybe 2024-25 as well.

[Hxj]

The relevant regulation for the Premier League under sanctions states that the Disciplinary Commission may 

"W.51.10. make such other order as it thinks fit."

So clearly a points deduction in the EFL is an allowable sanction.

https://resources.premierleague.com/premierleague/document/2022/12/13/af4dc48c-3761-4a15-97b4-b8b6aa4e95f2/PL_Handbook_2022-23_DIGITAL_13.12.pdf

 

[Hxj]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Given how much stricter the Football League are on FFP that would not be Everton's only issue

I agree - if Everton are relegated then the FFP fun really begins,

[ExiledAjax]

35 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The relevant regulation for the Premier League under sanctions states that the Disciplinary Commission may 

"W.51.10. make such other order as it thinks fit."

So clearly a points deduction in the EFL is an allowable sanction.

https://resources.premierleague.com/premierleague/document/2022/12/13/af4dc48c-3761-4a15-97b4-b8b6aa4e95f2/PL_Handbook_2022-23_DIGITAL_13.12.pdf

 

But is there any obligation on the EFL to enforce that "other order"? 

The PL could order Everton to play all their home games at Ashton Gate, but City would be under no obligation to accommodate that order. 

That's my question - is there a mutual agreement between PL & EFL to enforce each others' penalties?

Edited March 25, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

is there a mutual agreement between PL & EFL to enforce each others penalties?

Allegedly there is and it is referred to but I can't find the reference.

My current view would be that the EFL would be enthusiastic in imposing the penalty, but as we all know what actually happens will be watched with interest.  Particularly with an independent presence in the background. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Hxj said:

Allegedly there is and it is referred to but I can't find the reference.

My current view would be that the EFL would be enthusiastic in imposing the penalty, but as we all know what actually happens will be watched with interest.  Particularly with an independent presence in the background. 

Is this new do you know? I honestly think that Aston Villa in 2019 should have been put under the EFL terms and conditions equivalent while the Investigation into their Sale and Lease back was ongoing ie Business Plan etc.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Reading the Everton forum there really are echoes of Derby 2020. Infamy , infamy they've all got it infamy. Unbelievable takes from some.

My amazement is that it took so long to charge Everton. Or refer it anyway.

In respect of the ESL, the punishments were pisspoor by UEFA and the domestic Leagues for all 12.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The same poster again. An Everton who lives in Derby perchance.

Some of the defences sound superficially attractive however it sounds an awful lot like the Derby one about the Regulator being at fault.

Derby Bingo anyone!

*Audited accounts- 

*Independent experts- 

*League agreement-- 

*League fault therefore club held innocent- 

BINGO!!

Numbers vs how they were reached maybe?

Edited March 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

I sense MrP has a new calling

[downendcity]

18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Matt Hughes, apologies for the source of paper but he's good on this kinda thing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11901997/Premier-League-questioned-flight-clubs-decision-charge-Everton.htm

They're spot on, it took them 9 months to refer...any Sporting Sanctions if applicable would refer to next season by the sound. Indeed serious doubts were raised last March.

They're quite insular and ill-informed on that Everton fan site about these issues but maybe the PL do it differently:

 

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I sense MrP has a new calling

Are you thinking the same as me Dave, that Mr P should join the Everton forum ( as he did with Derby) to put them right on all matters ffp and get himself on a whole load of new Christmas card lists?!

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I sense MrP has a new calling

 

4 hours ago, downendcity said:

 

Are you thinking the same as me Dave, that Mr P should join the Everton forum ( as he did with Derby) to put them right on all matters ffp and get himself on a whole load of new Christmas card lists?!

A Villa fan has already beaten me too it albeit far less combative than me...simply explaining the process without rows yet.

Hopefully the whole aspect that a Governing body can indeed challenge audit sign off will be covered. It's the right answer otherwise a League would just have to accept accounts as constituted and hands tied.

I reckon I could have explained aspects of it for our Derby friends had I but been allowed to join without all the back and forth via forums.

Btw @downendcity you once compared the PL indecision to EFL v Derby iirc. Spot on, excellent analogy- the timeframe of this feels longer the  it should to me- maybe they needed external independent analysis as a basis to dispute how the Covid losses fed into 2021-22 I dunno.

Still Stoke's blueprint was very similar to Everton, I might try reworking some of those numbers in a few formats and see how they look.

My approach is a bit absolutist.

If a club after the allowed £5m x 2/2 and £2.5m and the usual adjustments and averaging exceeds the usual limits then automatically refer to an IDC to decide the validity. Provided it's not easy to verify as tickets, season tickets, commercial revenue and events can easily cause it to exceed £5m x 2 and £2.5m.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seen it suggested- The Esk- that if guilty there would be a deduction but it would be under 9 points which was what Portsmouth got in 2009-10 for admin.

Surely it depends on the size of the breach, that could be quite weak if so.

Plus he suggested that Everton needed to raise £100m in summer but only sold Richarlison.

In which case Everton should have been sold within a couple of months.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Chelsea reportedly lost £121m??

Referral? Honestly thought the huge player sales would have seen them turn a profit to some extent.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ooh looks as if Chelsea are possibly heading for the dock.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11912279/Premier-League-braced-battle-Chelsea-potential-breach-financial-rules.html

Trying to use certain items to help them out, including bizarrely Rudiger contract non renewal during their sanctions.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

On 27/03/2023 at 11:16, Mr Popodopolous said:

Chelsea reportedly lost £121m??

Referral? Honestly thought the huge player sales would have seen them turn a profit to some extent.

 

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ooh looks as if Chelsea are possibly heading for the dock.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11912279/Premier-League-braced-battle-Chelsea-potential-breach-financial-rules.html

Trying to use certain items to help them out, including bizarrely Rudiger contract non renewal during their sanctions.

Noses surely started twitching when they started amortising transfers over 8 years.

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

 

Noses surely started twitching when they started amortising transfers over 8 years.

Yeah that was interesting...would have thought it would defer the issues rather than bring them to the fore.

We still don't know the specifics, there could be a significant impairment e.g. which sticks costs into 2022 but a) Frees up future amortisation space and b) Means thst the Profit on Disposal will either be much bigger or pure. It will though bump up the loss for 2021-22.

Under Abramovich they for years released good or bad in late December, early to mid January. No longer.

Fairly sure Everton and Stoke used to release quite early too.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Port Said Red]

Regarding the idea that accounts that have been audited are somehow sacrosanct and prove a Company's solvency, Silicon Valley Bank (SVB) had their accounts ratified by KPMG for the last 4 years, and as recently as November last year. Didn't help them much in the long run.

 

[1960maaan]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah that was interesting...would have thought it would defer the issues rather than bring them to the fore.

I think it may have had the opposite affect , it actually made the UEFA look into, and I believe close this "loophole".
Chelsea's net spend (Transfermarkt) is £543m , but with the long Contracts they clearly hoped to bypass regs. In future fees can only be spread over 5 years. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I think it may have had the opposite affect , it actually made the UEFA look into, and I believe close this "loophole".
Chelsea's net spend (Transfermarkt) is £543m , but with the long Contracts they clearly hoped to bypass regs. In future fees can only be spread over 5 years. 

Loophole shut sure, more like kicked the can down the road as to the precise timing of a breach is a better way of putting it.

[W-S-M Seagull]

Why can't we just have a wage cap and do away with all this bs? 

Seems like it takes forever to investigate a club and to then punish them. 

Potentially Everton could have broke the rules and stay up whilst other clubs who didn't break them go down. The punishment takes so long to come through that by that point Everton may have consolidated themselves as a mid table club under Dyche and therefore a points deduction wouldn't impact them. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 29/03/2023 at 12:06, W-S-M Seagull said:

Why can't we just have a wage cap and do away with all this bs? 

Seems like it takes forever to investigate a club and to then punish them. 

Potentially Everton could have broke the rules and stay up whilst other clubs who didn't break them go down. The punishment takes so long to come through that by that point Everton may have consolidated themselves as a mid table club under Dyche and therefore a points deduction wouldn't impact them. 

Based on the EFL template they should've been charged in summer 2021 or 2022, see Birmingham.

Can only assume the League analysed the accounts in depth and found something eventually that they didn't like.

Burnley I'm sure will be instructing their lawyers to wait by the phone- unless they've waived their claim of course.

It is okay though, for Everton didn't spend anything in last few windows apparently.

So I missed:

Patterson and Mykolenko in January 2022, loans for Van De Beek, El Ghazi and the conditional loan and buy for Alli.

Sacking Benitez and hiring Lampard. All cheap, all free! Digne sold too granted...

Gueye, Garner, Onana, McNeil and Maupay summer 2022! Loans for Vinagre and Coady. Oh and Tarkowski on a free.

Spent no money however. Ha Premier League fans live in another world a lot of them. The EFL impose restrictions to the extent about paying fees, loan fees etc.

Richarlison was by 30th June so it seemingly fell into last season's books.

Based on net spend they perhaps have a point. Based on true profit and loss accounting for deals perhaps not.

They sold Gordon in January too if course, will be interesting to see what their accounts from last sesson look like in order to extrapolate. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Perhaps they will be trending in the right direction but those Covid add-backs are sky high.

[Mr Popodopolous]

While their accounts aren't fully out yet here is a starting point.

Chelsea- Pre tax losses or Profits

2018-19 -£101,786,000

2019-20 PROFIT £35,652,000

2020-21 -£155,939,000

AVERAGE- £60,143,500

2021-22- REPORTED-£121,200,000

Give or take that's £282m...now this is before FFP allowances, legitimate Covid add-backs. Question is will their Russia war arguments fit with reality. They were sanctioned for a few months but...2-3 months, was it enough? Loss wise this snippet is interesting.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous