Everton FFP- yes

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had another quick look at PL regs although they are not as clearly itemised or split into sections as the EFL ones.

It isn't altogether clear to me (others may know better) as to whether they allow in the same way for Club v Club disputes as they do at our level. Derby v Middlesbrough and or Derby v Wycombe could have gone to a Panel, I don't know to what extent if at all the Premier League regs reflect this.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Oh yes and this is Derby writ large. I recall Middlesbrough threatening to sue the EFL because certain regulations were not enforced.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12093733/Premier-League-facing-threat-legal-action-clubs-spending-rules.html

If Everton are sued for up to £300m, unlikely though it is I have little sympathy as their actions brought about their predicament.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Baba Yaga]

On 10/05/2023 at 14:42, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm for go hard simply as the rules must apply to all equally if they are to have any merit. Their wider financial situation is neither here nor there I believe and in any event self-inflicted.

The other key point well IMO anyway is that all those clubs who have sold players, held back in the market, shown restraint at the expense of on the pitch, they have effectively sacrificed their on pitch interest to comply with the rules such as they are.

Any equivocation or go slow is a slap in the face to them and I believe could cause them ie the 3rd bottom side if they have complied legitimately genuine detriment. Burnley in effect hugely compliant went down at the expense of a side in alleged breach of the financial rules. I suspect it cost them a number of players as well as all the cash.

Now it may well turn out to be that it was a blessing in disguise for Burnley but is well beyond the point.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65636260

It's going to be very interesting to see if this takeover goes through, sounds like they need to stay up first but if they manage that then the buyers will want to get the club for a knock down price and the current owners won't be in a position to bargain too much. Without knowing how these things work I can imagine the new owners will ask for assurances from the premier league too that nothing catastrophic is going to happen to them with ffp. I can imagine a back door understanding would be struck due to the high likelihood that the club would go under otherwise and the buyers would also have the leverage of the half built stadium on the Liverpool docks being in need of their finance. If that stadium stays half built like Valencia then that is going to piss off a lot of people, and I can imagine rules will be bent to avoid that scenario. Very much a pragmatic decision rather than a principled one but I think that will be the most likely outcome if Everton survive, if there is a 600m deal on the line then surely any pts deduction/future fine would be known ahead of time and pushed to the lowest end of the scale.

Agree about Burnley, what they have done to turnover all those players last summer and build a new team/new style in the space of a year is extraordinary, however their previous owners were very prudent and would have deserved not to be screwed over by such an extremely unfair financial playing field.

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65636260

It's going to be very interesting to see if this takeover goes through, sounds like they need to stay up first but if they manage that then the buyers will want to get the club for a knock down price and the current owners won't be in a position to bargain too much. Without knowing how these things work I can imagine the new owners will ask for assurances from the premier league too that nothing catastrophic is going to happen to them with ffp. I can imagine a back door understanding would be struck due to the high likelihood that the club would go under otherwise and the buyers would also have the leverage of the half built stadium on the Liverpool docks being in need of their finance. If that stadium stays half built like Valencia then that is going to piss off a lot of people, and I can imagine rules will be bent to avoid that scenario. Very much a pragmatic decision rather than a principled one but I think that will be the most likely outcome if Everton survive, if there is a 600m deal on the line then surely any pts deduction/future fine would be known ahead of time and pushed to the lowest end of the scale.

Agree about Burnley, what they have done to turnover all those players last summer and build a new team/new style in the space of a year is extraordinary, however their previous owners were very prudent and would have deserved not to be screwed over by such an extremely unfair financial playing field.

Mostly agree with your post, especially on Burnley.

My view on the other bit, mega lawsuits/arbitration claims aside is that it shouldn't make any difference but it probably might. If we look at the EFL and Derby emerging from Covid or during Covid as we were, the FFP claims being pursued against them were affected neither by the behind closed doors Covid scenario, the risk of insolvency (2021 when Mel Morris refusing to give assurances) or even when they were in administration itself.

When Kirchher (yes we all know how he turned out) initially was linked a month or so into administration it was reported that the League were still pursuing deductions over FFP breaches. Which showed that no notable difference was made. As we know the -21 across administration and FFP formed part of that final settlement however justice ran its course.

You may well be right but to me it shouldn't be a factor really.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Baba Yaga]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Mostly agree with your post, especially on Burnley.

My view on the other bit, mega lawsuits/arbitration claims aside is that it shouldn't make any difference but it probably might. If we look at the EFL and Derby emerging from Covid or during Covid as we were, the FFP claims being pursued against them were affected neither by the behind closed doors Covid scenario, the risk of insolvency (2021 when Mel Morris refusing to give assurances) or even when they were in administration itself.

When Kirchher (yes we all know how he turned out) initially was linked a month or so into administration it was reported that the League were still pursuing deductions over FFP breaches. Which showed that no notable difference was made. As we know the -21 across administration and FFP formed part of that final settlement however justice ran its course.

You may well be right but to me it shouldn't be a factor really.

Its funny that the premier league were threatened with government intervention for not going after their clubs hard enough, however what the government will definitely not want is to be faced with is a big project to boost the economy in that area to go sideways and the issues of subcontractors not being paid and the problems that could cause in an already limp construction industry. I expect the premier league going fairly soft in this situation would have government approval however if Everton did go down and it fell to the efl to handle then I see the club going into administration for sure and it being handled very differently. There is so much riding on these next PL games for Everton will be very interesting to see how it unfolds.

[W-S-M Seagull]

I still feel its really dodgy that Everton are under investigation and it looks like they may survive. Next season when the possible punishment is applied they could finish 10th or something so the punishment isn't really a punishment. 

I fully expect that the lawyers of Leeds and Leicester are watching this very closely and ready to act should they go down. I guess that's why they asked the Premier League to fast track the process so that it gives them the option of seeking compensation from the Premier League too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I still feel its really dodgy that Everton are under investigation and it looks like they may survive. Next season when the possible punishment is applied they could finish 10th or something so the punishment isn't really a punishment. 

I fully expect that the lawyers of Leeds and Leicester are watching this very closely and ready to act should they go down. I guess that's why they asked the Premier League to fast track the process so that it gives them the option of seeking compensation from the Premier League too.

Totally agree.

Burnley have every reason to be aggrieved too, never come close to breaking FFP, the accounts to 2021 somehow cleared (yes I know the 2020 and 2021 were combined and averaged). £140m and £120m pre tax so £130m, £111m and £13m..well there were other little bits that took it to £255m between 2018 and 2021. That alone should have led to a referral which would have meant some sort of soft embargo etc in 2021-22 before a likely deduction.

Teams finishing 3rd from bottom in 2021-22 and 2022-23 if Everton survive have to he considered to have a case.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Juventus docked 10 points.

Hasn't dragged on for 2 or 3 years that, let alone the Man City 10-15 years. Do they have a more streamlined Disciplinary system in Italy.

[Winterstoke toad]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Juventus docked 10 points.

Hasn't dragged on for 2 or 3 years that, let alone the Man City 10-15 years. Do they have a more streamlined Disciplinary system in Italy.

Yet most people believe Serie A is very corrupt but at least they have some bottle compared to here .

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Winterstoke toad said:

Yet most people believe Serie A is very corrupt but at least they have some bottle compared to here .

A free with this. Alternatively they have a more efficient system for referriing and dealing with the cases, but either way the end result is similar.

The Football League are better than the PL without doubt in this respect but still some flaws although improving.

[chinapig]

Potential new investment for Everton, though it seems to be an odd mix of investment (but not equity) and a loan (interest payable).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65674665

[W-S-M Seagull]

16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Totally agree.

Burnley have every reason to be aggrieved too, never come close to breaking FFP, the accounts to 2021 somehow cleared (yes I know the 2020 and 2021 were combined and averaged). £140m and £120m pre tax so £130m, £111m and £13m..well there were other little bits that took it to £255m between 2018 and 2021. That alone should have led to a referral which would have meant some sort of soft embargo etc in 2021-22 before a likely deduction.

Teams finishing 3rd from bottom in 2021-22 and 2022-23 if Everton survive have to he considered to have a case.

It just feels dirty to me and I consider it cheating. 

We all know Everton have breached ffp and because of that breach they continue to have players that are giving them a competitive advantage on the pitch from their cheating. That competitive advantage could see them once again survive relegation instead of clubs who have complied. 

The process is far too slow. Maybe it's cos the rules are too complicated and should be simplified? 

Do you think the relegated clubs from last year and potentially this year would have a strong case against Everton and the PL?

[Bristol Rob]

21 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

 

Do you think the relegated clubs from last year and potentially this year would have a strong case against Everton and the PL?

Morally, yes. Proving it over years of litigation is probably an altogether different matter.

The PL/EFL needs to come together and introduce some sort of workable mechanism that closes off the grey areas, punishes clubs that exceed spending limits either by way of points deductions, relegations or denial of promotion - it's the only way. 

If these means that outside of the usual accounting cycle of annual reporting they need to introduce quarterly or monthly financial statements then they should do so. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

53 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It just feels dirty to me and I consider it cheating. 

We all know Everton have breached ffp and because of that breach they continue to have players that are giving them a competitive advantage on the pitch from their cheating. That competitive advantage could see them once again survive relegation instead of clubs who have complied. 

The process is far too slow. Maybe it's cos the rules are too complicated and should be simplified? 

Do you think the relegated clubs from last year and potentially this year would have a strong case against Everton and the PL?

Based on the Middlesbrough and Wycombe cases surely the clubs in the closest proximity would have the best chance. Namely Burnley last year and Leeds or Leicester this, by closest proximity I mean 3rd from bottom.

Everton liable potentially for overspending and therefore cheating, the League for failure to enforce in a timely and reasonable manner.

[Davefevs]

FWIW Everton have £25m due for Moise Kean when his loan with obligation to buy goes through this summer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Update.

Claimed that it won't be settled until October. Depressing yet predictable.

https://www.footballinsider247.com/revealed-big-everton-ffp-update-as-request-rejected/

Was obvious it would drag into next season given how late in the season the charges were.

The EFL aspect if they drop Sunday is untested but I woukd argue the new regulation alignment about Promoted and Relegated clubs at least makes it possible.

[W-S-M Seagull]

My argument is, had they complied with FFP, would they have been able to of afforded Doucoure? The player that kept them in the Premier League? Cost them 20 million and reportedly earns 100k plus a week. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Reportedly although we won't know until the official accounts out but Football Insider which can be variable says they lost some £45m in 2022-23.

This would be despite and including the £40-45m sale of Gordon (pure profit) and maybe I dunno when exactly it would fall but would the Kean deal also be this season or 2023-24?

Has they come down or would have been incredibly interesting to see their compliance with P&S to 2023-24.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

Things are getting worse for Everton as the expected investors have withdrawn. Though they were proposing funding with interest being charged not equity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66588397

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting story.

Everton investment stalling, withdrawing has seen their bid for Che Adams collapse or hit the buffers!

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60714/

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting story.

Everton investment stalling, withdrawing has seen their bid for Che Adams collapse or hit the buffers!

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60714/

Dyche says the MSP money would not have added to their transfer budget anyway.

Looks like they will secure a £100m loan towards the new stadium but that seems to leave them £250m short still.

If they were to be relegated it could be a disaster.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/24/sean-dyche-admits-msp-sports-capitals-equity-deal-would-not-have-helped-in-transfer-market

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hearing on Thursday October 25th as many will know.

Wonder if the Everton forum will have a Matchday thread for it!

Everton v PL

Kick off, 10am

Matchday October 25th

Venue- London Arbitration venue (probably).

Final Score: PL 10 v Everton 0 (Deduction).

Leicester, Leeds and Burnley £300m - Everton 0

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a more serious note, what do we think of the whole Leicester, Leeds, Burnley seemingly threatening if Everton found in breach, to sue for £100m apiece??

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[38MC]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On a more serious note, what do we think of the whole Leicester, Leeds, Burnley seemingly threatening if Everton found in breach, to sue for £100m apiece??

I think it's toilet paper to be honest. 

They would need to prove Everton were in breach and that Everton's breach caused them financial loss. The breach is a question of fact, but lets assume it is proven. I think their case fails when trying to prove that breach caused them financial loss. This is because you simply can't say money spent = improved League position or more points on the board (see Chelsea or Manchester United, or in the alternative SL's favourite club Luton). The question would be 'if Everton didn't overspend, would those clubs have stayed up'. I don't see them as being capable of proving that.

I think the correct action would be against the Premier League. They were the one's who (potentially) breached their obligation to uphold the FFP rules and their failure to do so and award the appropriate sanction (points deduction) is a much easier argument to run. You can show the breach and how that directly caused the clubs to be relegated - assuming the breach warranted an automatic points deduction.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, 38MC said:

I think it's toilet paper to be honest. 

They would need to prove Everton were in breach and that Everton's breach caused them financial loss. The breach is a question of fact, but lets assume it is proven. I think their case fails when trying to prove that breach caused them financial loss. This is because you simply can't say money spent = improved League position or more points on the board (see Chelsea or Manchester United, or in the alternative SL's favourite club Luton). The question would be 'if Everton didn't overspend, would those clubs have stayed up'. I don't see them as being capable of proving that.

I think the correct action would be against the Premier League. They were the one's who (potentially) breached their obligation to uphold the FFP rules and their failure to do so and award the appropriate sanction (points deduction) is a much easier argument to run. You can show the breach and how that directly caused the clubs to be relegated - assuming the breach warranted an automatic points deduction.  

This seems fair.

I mean it's hard to say. EFL v Birmingham 2018-19, this was an argument that Birmingham utilised. It didn't spare them as the mere act of overspending was deemed an offence and punishable. Otoh nobody spoke of litigation either! They were given sporting sanctions and that was that.

The only club sued by other clubs over this was Derby and that fluctuated a bit. Initially Middlesbrough in May 2019 announced an intention to due or take arbitration out v Derby.

By about mid September 2019 this changed to suing or arbitration vs the EFL.

Yet by May 2021 Couhig spoke of suing and Gibson still hadn't given up either even after administration.

That defence didn't work for Birmingham the whole spending vs benefit gained. Or anyone. Yet yes inclined to agree that it would fall on the regulator unless e.g. Everton had mislead.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The other bit I find laughable is the size and scope.

If you finished 18th in 2021-22 or 2022-23 you still get Parachute Payments. £60-70m gap.

If it's 2021-22, it is Burnley. Leeds in 17th may have a claim as well for several million in TV Prize Money dependent on the size of the deduction.

If it is 2022-23, it is Leicester and then depending on the size of deduction Leeds may have a Prize Money claim for finishing 18th rather than 19th.

It cannot be both though as in the event of a fail it resets to £35m if above or stays below if below. Everton fell under that to 2021-22..I struggle to see how both Burnley and Leicester have a claim, one or the other and perhaps Leeds from a Prize Money angle deduction size permitting.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sir Geoff]

Think Everton will get a fine and points deduction. Their so called COVID losses were ridiculous.

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Think Everton will get a fine and points deduction. Their so called COVID losses were ridiculous.

And yet the Premier League assured Burnley and Leeds at the time that everything was hunky dory so there was no breach.

Then along comes the government committing to an independent regulator and the PL suddenly decides there was a breach after all. What a coincidence eh?

[38MC]

17 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This seems fair.

I mean it's hard to say. EFL v Birmingham 2018-19, this was an argument that Birmingham utilised. It didn't spare them as the mere act of overspending was deemed an offence and punishable. Otoh nobody spoke of litigation either! They were given sporting sanctions and that was that.

The only club sued by other clubs over this was Derby and that fluctuated a bit. Initially Middlesbrough in May 2019 announced an intention to due or take arbitration out v Derby.

By about mid September 2019 this changed to suing or arbitration vs the EFL.

Yet by May 2021 Couhig spoke of suing and Gibson still hadn't given up either even after administration.

That defence didn't work for Birmingham the whole spending vs benefit gained. Or anyone. Yet yes inclined to agree that it would fall on the regulator unless e.g. Everton had mislead.

The Birmingham circumstances are quite different though so not sure it reads across. This is because Birmingham were relying on a similar premise as a defence to a breach v the regulating authority, whereas for Everton vis a vis the other clubs, they don’t need to defend/justify their breach or even be apologetic for it, just defeat the clubs argument that Everton’s breach resulted in their relegation - quite easy for the Everton KC to pick holes in any argument they want to run on that basis. 
 

Middlesbrough too I thought was without merit. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by 38MC

[Mr Popodopolous]

Their Hearing begun on Tuesday or Wednesday.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/everton-premier-league-ffp-hearing-latest-b2432298.html