Everton FFP- yes

[adamski]

2 hours ago, downendcity said:

It seems to me that the mitigation comprises "but we are Everton", and "it's unfair".

There's also an element of Everton having thought they'd got away with it as a result of their financial jiggery pokery and that the premier League would probably do next to nothing about it.

At the time of Derby being called to account and when they were in danger of going out if business, many said that it needed a big club to go bust for the football world to realise that financially it had to change.

Unfortunately, it could well be that a 10 point deduction will be insufficient to relegate Everton this season (the irony being that had the penalty been applied when it should have been, it would!).

However, the Man City case is far more interesting. If they are found guilty ( at this stage still a big if, as I suspect their lawyers will, at the least, try to keep kicking the van down the road) then if punished   proportionally, they must surely be relegated at least one division.

That level of fallout could well lead to a realty check, as far as football finances are concerned, and particularly for clubs that are effectively state owned.

 

 

I wonder if Everton ( a big club in name, history and support-but in today's world, a humdrum prem Club that will win nothing and have no massively politically influential backers - unlike Man City/Newcastle etc.) are being used to give the view that the prem are prosecuting their offenders....Could they afford the legal expenses that Man City are brining into play? It's the fans I feel sorry for in all of this.... What good would a bankrupted Everton serve other than to give Liverpool the opportunity to move into a world class stadium that has been built without completely ruining the community within which it stands?

[Eddie Hitler]

I quite like Everton but am all for there being big penalties for breaching FFP, either deliberately or by being reckless.

<cough>Ipswich</cough>

[Will Rollason]

Seems to me that points deductions might not be enough of a penalty where the  "bigger " clubs are concerned.

If Chelsea and Man city might miss out on winning the prem and/or champ league do we think it would make them comply?

Nor would fines worry them.

If clubs start suing one another there's only going to be one winner.

As my dear old mum, retired solicitor, was fond of pointing out - in civil matters...NEVER go to law

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, downendcity said:

It seems to me that the mitigation comprises "but we are Everton", and "it's unfair".

There's also an element of Everton having thought they'd got away with it as a result of their financial jiggery pokery and that the premier League would probably do next to nothing about it.

At the time of Derby being called to account and when they were in danger of going out if business, many said that it needed a big club to go bust for the football world to realise that financially it had to change.

Unfortunately, it could well be that a 10 point deduction will be insufficient to relegate Everton this season (the irony being that had the penalty been applied when it should have been, it would!).

However, the Man City case is far more interesting. If they are found guilty ( at this stage still a big if, as I suspect their lawyers will, at the least, try to keep kicking the van down the road) then if punished   proportionally, they must surely be relegated at least one division.

That level of fallout could well lead to a realty check, as far as football finances are concerned, and particularly for clubs that are effectively state owned.

 

 

Totally agree. You called the comparison quite well a while back.

There seems to be a lot of Special Pleading out thete. By fans sure but I don't get the reaction of journos and pundits, some of whom clearly aren't Everton fans.

Yep -10 would have pushed Everton down last year or the year before. Burnley 2021-22, Leicester and Leeds last year all within substantially less than 10 points. Albeit Everton do have to play Chelsea, both Manchester clubs, Newcastle and Tottenham away in games 13-19.

Away games also include Burnley, 6 pointer now and Nottingham Forest who are steady at home.

Agreed. There was an article not long after they were charged that suggested they might have to go to League 2 if they were forcibly relegated for FFP given the nature of the case.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/02/07/manchester-city-news-relegation-ffp-rules-points-deduction-premier/

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/man-city-news-relegated-b2278309.html

We are now getting a Regulator apparently, perhaps meaningful change will come.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

This post nails it I think, below the line comment on Football365.

[Davefevs]

Mr P…when did you start writing for F365?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Mr P…when did you start writing for F365?

I'd certainly be prolific on FFP if I did and tell them a thing or 2 Dave. 

Seems like a lot of PL fans and pundits, journos are totally oblivious to and above it.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

The timeframe still troubles me in all honesty because if we recall the Birmingham case, the League got Projected numbers in March 2018 as they would here and accounts made until end of June, and they got new and updated numbers in early to mid July 2018.

They were also under a side embargo as soon as a Projected overspend was forecast in March, possibly even as soon as January 2018.

Disputed accounting items or not, surely Everton should have once the potential numbers showed a disconnect been referred in August or September 2022 and under a soft or not so soft embargo.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I also don't get the reasoning behind the myth that Fulham are moderate or low spenders. Alyson Rudd wrote in the Times when Silva signed a new deal that he would "spend with gusto". Not saying they're in breach of any regs but paupers on a shoe string they ain't.

He was kicking off about a lack of backing in the market in the summer iirc.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Paragraph 137 is excellent, especially the bit about "non-existent midfield"..that should seal their culpability, plus budgeting for 6th is their own fault, if you fall short you sell more, spend less, cut back further or face the consequences.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Paragraph 137 is excellent, especially the bit about "non-existent midfield"..that should seal their culpability, plus budgeting for 6th is their own fault, if you fall short you sell more, spend less, cut back further or face the consequences.

Sure I remember Scott Davidson saying that budgets were set (back in his day) on a first round exit of all cup competitions.

Which is sounds prudent and sensible.

To budget on your club finishing top 6, in a European place and then not meeting it.... lunacy.

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Sure I remember Scott Davidson saying that budgets were set (back in his day) on a first round exit of all cup competitions.

Which is sounds prudent and sensible.

To budget on your club finishing top 6, in a European place and then not meeting it.... lunacy.

I'd even say that is sketchy in this era of FFP but prize money isn't likely to be material unless you run it right close to £39m ie 10s of thousands, within £50k of the limit etc. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

One more observation.

I reckon what tipped them over the edge, in terms of costs, wages, amortisation was Janaury 2022:

1) Sacked Benitez and his staff. £10.5m. Plus whatever wages Lampard was on.

2) Added Patterson for a reported fee of £12m, on a 5.5 year deal. Mykolenko seen it suggested £17m, 4.5 year deal. Amortisation plus wages for somewhere between 5-6 months 

3) Alli- no loan fee but £100k per week for 5 months.

4) Van De Beek- loan fee £500,000 but £100,000 per week, 5 to 5.5 months. Unsure if a loan fee for El Ghazi but would have covered his wages.

Oh they sold Digne but I strongly suspect this January activity could have totalled £19.5m. The exact amount they failed by.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[the1stknowle]

From memory, this guy is a Man U fan (that might be wrong), so maybe a pinch of salt needed. And i have seen similarly forceful threads the other way from well informed Man City fans, such as Slbsn. But, for those willing to get through this long thread, it lays out a lot of the salient info around the City charges. 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

From memory, this guy is a Man U fan (that might be wrong), so maybe a pinch of salt needed. And i have seen similarly forceful threads the other way from well informed Man City fans, such as Slbsn. But, for those willing to get through this long thread, it lays out a lot of the salient info around the City charges. 

There is no obligation for the EFL to accept Man City as members, and so Man City may end up in the National League. 

Given a lot of the charges against Man C relate to obfuscation and deceit, if found guilty, I'd hope the EFL wouldn't accept them. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

There is no obligation for the EFL to accept Man City as members, and so Man City may end up in the National League. 

Given a lot of the charges against Man C relate to obfuscation and deceit, if found guilty, I'd hope the EFL wouldn't accept them. 

Wouldn't that be something. Man City down to the National League or National League North even!

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wouldn't that be something. Man City down to the National League or National League North even!

Gloucester City vs Manchester City!

[the1stknowle]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wouldn't that be something. Man City down to the National League or National League North even!

Get Paul Dickov back

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/19/premier-league-no-option-tough-clubs-rules-everton-man-city/

Good article on what it might mean more widely. The usual paywall but..

One technical point. The citing of 3 straight years is slightly misleading owing to the Covid adjustment.

This article says £304m in 3 years to 2022, likewise if to 2021 you could argue £372m in 3 years.

Now due to Covid 2020 and 2021 became one so..

To 2021, would be maybe £257m or £258m.

To 2022, would be perhaps £285-286m.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Chelsea and their P&S to THIS season ie 2021-22 to 2023-24, here is their starting point.

Their underlying loss before was basically £244m..will be intriguing to see 2022-23 accounts when out, Chelsea usually used to release late December, early January.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Given they did the sale and leaseback trick, uniquely benefited by £14.4m due to a luck of geography aka HS2 in the Championship and lost £136m albeit Covid hit years in 2019-20 and 2020-21 in the PL, I hardly think these sanctimonious tossers are in a position to preach.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-aston-villa-steered-clear-28142349

They only made a profit of £0.5-1m in 2021-22 owing to the sale of Grealish for £100m, thereby meaning the underlying loss before tax was not far off £100m.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 19/11/2023 at 13:05, Will Rollason said:

Seems to me that points deductions might not be enough of a penalty where the  "bigger " clubs are concerned.

If Chelsea and Man city might miss out on winning the prem and/or champ league do we think it would make them comply?

Nor would fines worry them.

If clubs start suing one another there's only going to be one winner.

As my dear old mum, retired solicitor, was fond of pointing out - in civil matters...NEVER go to law

In a sense yes, moreso Chelsea.

A deduction pushing them out of the CL or even down to 8th, 10th or below would deprive them of valuable European revenue which is quite high and the obligation to comply the next year and the next wouldn't go away.

Plus for each place the reduction pushes a club down, that prize money falls..again revenue issues.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 19/11/2023 at 09:09, Coombsy said:

Did he get a banning order 

Ha missed this post. Of course not.

Got an x match ban but it only kicked in after the season so Tottenham got the benefit.

Got a goal that perhaps bolstered them by 2 if not 3 points in a comeback win vs Crystal Palace. They stayed up by 4 points, lost at Arsenal on the last day. Very handy timing.

He got banned 5th July for it, when the event took place on 1st May 2022.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[transfer reader]

23 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

Sure I remember Scott Davidson saying that budgets were set (back in his day) on a first round exit of all cup competitions.

Which is sounds prudent and sensible.

To budget on your club finishing top 6, in a European place and then not meeting it.... lunacy.

Shades of early 2000s Leeds where they budgeted based on a CL semi final 

[exAtyeoMax]

Everton points deduction taken to Parliament by MP Ian Byrne with early day motion

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67477429

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Everton points deduction taken to Parliament by MP Ian Byrne with early day motion

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67477429

Wait til they find out about Bury, Sheffield Wednesday, Birmingham, Reading, etc.

[southside]

11 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

From memory, this guy is a Man U fan (that might be wrong), so maybe a pinch of salt needed. And i have seen similarly forceful threads the other way from well informed Man City fans, such as Slbsn. But, for those willing to get through this long thread, it lays out a lot of the salient 

https://newsthump.com/2023/11/20/man-city-relegated-to-east-manchester-u9s-league-after-record-12000-points-deduction/

[Mr Popodopolous]

They spent £81m in 2020-21, mainly summer 2020 and the wage bill rose by £18m. 

A sceptic may wonder, did Everton believe FFP would be shelved post Covid and try to steal a march?

Their biitching is genuinely something else.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting angle, what do we think.

https://archive.is/2023.11.20-182248/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/20/everton-10-point-deduction-appeal-premier-league/

Apart from the fact it is whining and tbh if the Independent Panel have a wide range, surely this empowers them to hand down a penalty that they see fit.

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/23-24/comment/editorial/44171.html

"Show Trial" 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous