Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 10 minutes ago, Hxj said: You need to move away from a mathematical model to describe the process of arriving at the deduction, as the Appeal Board themselves stated there is no formula. They also said that the screeching halt in expenditure for 2022 were little grounds for mitigation. Bearing in mind that this was the first such case an alternative way of looking at it is that the Appeal Board decided like this: "The minimum penalty in effect is 3 points, the maximum penalty is 9 points, we think this sits roughly in the middle taking into account all the aggravating and mitigating circumstances, so 6 points seems reasonable." So Forest will be, assuming the same relative size of breach (which is rumoured), so we start from -6 points as in Everton 1. We should give them some mitigation for the sale of Johnson, see Sheffield Wednesday, and for the admission so say -3. Everton 2 will be, there is an admitted breach, but there is no such thing as a 'technical breach' due to applying the EFL rules, as those rules don't apply. As the Appeal Board stated it is an absolute offence, you either breached or you did not, and if you did breach you can expect a points penalty. Assuming of the same level, so start at -6. The mitigation is higher than last time with an admission, but there is also an aggravating factor as there appears to have been no attempt to meet FFP under EPL rules in this year, so we remain at -6. But looking at both cases in the round we reduce the penalty to -4 to reflect to some account the double counting. I'm sure they got 2 back for losses falling year on year. Otoh for losses to put them in breach again is quite something. 9 as a max is ridiculous, Chelsea in theory could have a mega overspend to this year. If it is a max of 9, what wider message does it send? See Wolves who were sold about 1/4 of their squad and lost Lopetegui to ensure present and future compliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 Fwiw Everton seem to think, leaning on the double jeopardy argument somewhat, that their deduction for the 2nd alleged breach would he between 1 and 3 points. I do hope the PL Appeal if sentences are unduly lax, think they have the right. Do Burnley now have a case v Everton, for the period ending 2021-22? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) Winter and his Mental Gymnastics are absurd. He is all over the place sadly. How you can under FRS 102 row back a transaction is bollocks in 99.99% of cases. Chelsea shouldn't have spent so much in the first instance. No sympathy, if they want to Balance their Books that way to fund wasteful spending why should that be partially exonerated. Purslow was moaning the other day about it too. PSR should basically run outside of FRS 102? What? Accounts under FRS 102 are the starting point. In which case they should be able to make their own deductions not factoring in FRS 102 so much. He is cherry picking and all over the place. Edited February 27 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: I'm sure they got 2 back for losses falling year on year. Which two back and where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Hxj said: Which two back and where? Paragraph 221. Although perhaps I am getting confused as to the submissions vs the verdict and Reasoning. Without a structured framework of some kind though there is an element of clutching numbers from the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) Winter is a bit of a fawning sycophant though and when it comes to these matters, Evertonians really do have a weird warped sense of justice or injustice. Edited February 27 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 I recommend today's Athletic Football podcast. Matt Slater in particular gives an excellent summary. Henry Winter and the many other journalists who seem not to understand the process would do well to listen. https://theathletic.com/podcast/144-athletic-football-podcast/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 Matt Slater is excellent, I shall look forward to this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Matt Slater is excellent, I shall look forward to this. The best there is on football finance matters for me. Apart from his excellent summary he goes on to demolish many of the claims made by Everton fans and others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 minute ago, chinapig said: The best there is on football finance matters for me. Apart from his excellent summary he goes on to demolish many of the claims made by Everton fans and others. Thanks, myths being debunked is good. Who has it coming more do you think China? I was going to make a separate post but Everton or Nottingham Forest? Realistically a minimum of two compliant clubs will drop so Burnley, Sheffield United seem gone..but deductions could assist with relegation for one or the other. Unless they're huge deductions of course. Edited February 27 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 This guy also of The Athletic is a professional f*****g journalist. He has misinterpreted, wilfully or otherwise the EFL double jeopardy rule. Punished twice for the same offence, no as the Reading example showed if they're learning on EFL precedent.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Thanks, myths being debunked is good. Who has it coming more do you think China? I was going to make a separate post but Everton or Nottingham Forest? Realistically a minimum of two compliant clubs will drop so Burnley, Sheffield United seem gone..but deductions could assist with relegation for one or the other. Unless they're huge deductions of course. Hard to say without knowing the detail of the Forest case. And of course they have a lower limit. Tribunals don't set precedents but I can see them getting 6 points deducted if mitigation is factored in. Who knows if Everton's double jeopardy argument will work? A 4 point deduction would be amusing though! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: This guy also of The Athletic is a professional f*****g journalist. He has misinterpreted, wilfully or otherwise the EFL double jeopardy rule. Punished twice for the same offence, no as the Reading example showed if they're learning on EFL precedent.. If that's Everton fans holding up the placards they should perhaps read " You know what you're doing, but I think it's unfair" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 29 Author Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/26252861/everton-premier-league-rivals-sue-threat/ Apologies for the source but Lipton states that up to 5 clubs who could have a legal (financially anyway) bone to pick with Everton. Albeit claims from Nottingham Forest and Southampton we can cross off. Burnley probably the strongest case, then Leicester. Edited February 29 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 29 Author Report Share Posted February 29 Fans who think the Regulator would abolish FFP Sanctions should think again. Everton fans among others seem to believe, possibly wishfully that this would be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 1 Author Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) Hearing increasing numbers saying Everton should or might obly be docked 1-3 points on 2nd charge due to overlap. That seems incredibly generous given that their loss has surely spiked to put them in breach again. Carragher the latest, possibly Stefan Borson too. Otoh another article suggested they could get-6 again. Edited March 1 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 1 Author Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) This isn't some fan, this is a BBC journalist FFS! Albeit BBC Merseyside Sport. Specifically on the financial matters.. The conspiracy theories run bloody deep Christ. There was an Athletic article saying he has a bloody hard job now granted citing some reasons. Edited March 1 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 1 Author Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) For those who are interested. Couple of bits by a Lawyer or Sports Lawyer albeit prior to the Appeal. https://www.sportlawmusings.com/post/analyzing-everton-s-missing-10-points-the-premier-league-commission-s-decision https://www.sportlawmusings.com/post/everton-and-notts-forest-psr-charges-explained Edited March 1 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 Excellent piece on the woes of Everton and Nottingham Forest. Granted this was written before the reduction on Appeal. https://tonyevans92a.substack.com/p/bad-owners-at-the-root-of-everton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 (edited) Another day, another Evertonian whinge. Nottingham Forest in some ways seem less deserving, ideally they'd both drop but the horrible form of Burnley and Sheffield United means one at most probably. The MP would like Commissions and Sanctions to be suspended pending Regulatory Review...the entitlement of these wow. Who do these w*****s think they are? Granted it is an Election year.. I can't believe the levels of entitlement. Edited March 4 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 https://archive.is/2024.03.06-071018/https://theathletic.com/5317485/2024/03/06/everton-psr-appeal-second-case/ This is a pretty odd article in parts because I see nothing in the EFL regs that prevents a fail 2 years on the bounce. The partial reset sure. It also stated that the SWFC overspend was 40 odd % above the Upped Limit. Odd way at looking at it given that there is a % at which there is no deduction from the original if it exceeds £15m overspend and indeed it was an £18.2m overspend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) Burnley suing the PL is the latest possible angle. They appear to have the strongest case of Aggrieved clubs to date. Leeds and or Leicester, who the hell knows. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/burnley-premier-league-everton-punishment-32285538 Burnley are squeaky clean for compliance I reckon. Leicester and perhaps Leeds..Hmm. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 @Mr Popodopolous I'm just watching the Everton game and I just thought of something. If Everton get relegated with this current points deduction and then recieve another which would have no impact on the table, could that 2nd points deduction instead be carried over to next season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 10 Author Report Share Posted March 10 On 09/03/2024 at 12:52, W-S-M Seagull said: @Mr Popodopolous I'm just watching the Everton game and I just thought of something. If Everton get relegated with this current points deduction and then recieve another which would have no impact on the table, could that 2nd points deduction instead be carried over to next season? Hi apologies missed this one, @W-S-M Seagull To the best of my knowledge it has to be settled this season. The verdict that may creep on after the season would be that of the Appeal, but the actual sanction or otherwise would be known before this. However there is a chance that they fail again to this season and that subject to the rules being fully tightened would be eligible to be applied next season if relegated.and fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 21 Author Report Share Posted March 21 (edited) Here is one for you @Hxj had this thought earlier. Anyone else too, was thinking about Agreed Decisions and how the Regulatory environment can evolve or otherwise. Had the PL offered Everton I dunno back in the Autumn 6 straight away for Period ending 2022, plus 4 suspended to June 2024, ie any breach up to then would see it get triggered might that have flown? As we now know, Everton have breached again or may have..that would rightly mean 6 at time of breach plus 4 suspended kicking un and then whatever for Breach 2 if proven. As we know from the Reading case, suspended breaches kicking in do not waive sanctions, obligations or mitigate against need to fulfil. Edited March 21 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted March 21 Report Share Posted March 21 @Mr Popodopolous this from Tony Bellow made me piss my self laughing. I don't think he understands what he is talking about. Tony Bellew on talkSPORT: 'You’ve got a team in Manchester City who have had more charges than I can possibly think of, and there’s no charges coming to them. 'It’s an absolute disgrace and then Nottingham Forest, who have done far worse than us [Everton] but get less of a points deduction. Man City are gonna end up in the conference if this comes off. You can’t have 115 charges, you done us for ten points. 'It doesn’t make any sense. The Premier League are not doing anything right and they’re destroying football, single-handedly.' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31 Author Report Share Posted March 31 Everton lost just the £89m last season?? https://www.evertonfc.com/news/3947487/everton-release-202223-report-accounts If the Accounts are out in full or if it is just headline numbers right now I'm unsure but no wonder they failed FFP again?? One wonders the financial position they would have been in had they dropped in 2021-22 or even 2022-23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31 Author Report Share Posted March 31 Interest Payable seems to have dropped, some kind of restatement..not looked in any depth yet. Perhaps loans restructured? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31 Author Report Share Posted March 31 The Interest restatement is curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31 Author Report Share Posted March 31 (edited) -£255m in this Reporting Period despite the Accounting Policy change. Yes there was the Covid double season. Mind bogglingly bad financial management. Crazily high losses. With most Covid allowables dropping off, at best they go into this year with -£124m Pre Tax. 2018-19..-£111.845m 2019-20..-£120.9m 2020-21..-£139.863m (Average around-£130m). 2021-22..-£44.732m (or -£38.413m) 2022-23..-£89.09m. Edited March 31 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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