Grand National

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Very quick maths - the fatality rate for races over jumps per start is 0.44%. This compares to 0.06% over flats, and the ratio of jumps to flats racing is about 1:2. That’s what I’ve just read, if any of that is wrong do correct me.

So assuming 18 races a year, that means 6 jumps races and a chance of dying per horse of 3.36%. When if jumps were removed, that would be 0.06%.

So there’s my side of the argument. Now is your opportunity to prove that ‘normal’ horses are dropping dead at a higher rate than 3.36% every approximately 3 weeks, for any given horse.

I think you’ll find that horses racing makes them far more susceptible to dying. But that was pretty obvious anyway.

According to Peta, approx 200 horses die each year in the UK whilst training or racing. 

68 were killed on roads last year. 139 riders injured. 

On average 2 a week on roads. 

https://www.equesure.co.uk/contact-us/news-events/how-many-horses-are-killed-on-the-uk-s-roads/

There are many many more that injure themselves in fields, just being horses, jumping and running. 

 

[nebristolred]

31 minutes ago, spudski said:

According to Peta, approx 200 horses die each year in the UK whilst training or racing. 

68 were killed on roads last year. 139 riders injured. 

On average 2 a week on roads. 

https://www.equesure.co.uk/contact-us/news-events/how-many-horses-are-killed-on-the-uk-s-roads/

There are many many more that injure themselves in fields, just being horses, jumping and running. 

 

None of that puts it into the context that I managed to.

Does an average horse have a higher or lower chance of dying per 3 weeks than 3.36%? I’m going to say now that it is absolutely lower, it’s quite obvious. Next time I’m at my laptop I will work it out for you if you need.

And *even if* you were right, which you aren’t, all your doing is providing more weight for the argument against using animals as ‘leisure’ items.

Why can’t we as humans just stop using and interfering with animals ffs. We pretend they want it and it’s bloody ridiculous.

Edited April 15, 2023 by nebristolred

[frenchred]

Well I'll go against the grain, I love horse racing!

Everything about it is geared to a great event whether it be with family or friends 

The horses live the best life imaginable, get the best food, exercise and vets money can buy, when they retire they aren't just discarded as many think 

Go visit some racing stables if your not convinced, they are very open and encouraging of people taking an interest and widening the capabilities of some to understand what goes on 

As with most things in the world now, anything that brings a chink of enjoyment to some that others don't agree with lots of crap will be spouted, as it is here on this thread

 

 

 

 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

None of that puts it into the context that I managed to.

Does an average horse have a higher or lower chance of dying per 3 weeks than 3.36%? I’m going to say now that it is absolutely lower, it’s quite obvious. Next time I’m at my laptop I will work it out for you if you need.

And *even if* you were right, which you aren’t, all your doing is providing more weight for the argument against using animals as ‘leisure’ items.

Why can’t we as humans just stop using and interfering with animals ffs. 

It's really difficult to find data away from horse racing on the net. I know about the domestic cases, because in a previous relationship we had stables that were hired out. It was spoken about. 

You've avoided commenting on the other glaring fact on producing food for vegetarians unethically, and the damage it does to the animal kingdom and environment. 

I agree with your sentiment...however it's easy to say things, yet not so easy to rectify in reality. It isn't a perfect world. 

Like I said...the animal kingdom is barbaric. 

 

 

 

[joe jordans teeth]

36 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Well I'll go against the grain, I love horse racing!

Everything about it is geared to a great event whether it be with family or friends 

The horses live the best life imaginable, get the best food, exercise and vets money can buy, when they retire they aren't just discarded as many think 

Go visit some racing stables if your not convinced, they are very open and encouraging of people taking an interest and widening the capabilities of some to understand what goes on 

As with most things in the world now, anything that brings a chink of enjoyment to some that others don't agree with lots of crap will be spouted, as it is here on this thread

 

 

 

 

I’m glad you and your friends have a great time

Of course they eat the best food,they should do after being smacked for no reason on a racecourse because by all accounts it’s what they were born to do 

If animals jumping fences they were not meant to brings you enjoyment and you can’t find happiness in any other way then well I’m flabbergasted 

[frenchred]

15 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

I’m glad you and your friends have a great time

Of course they eat the best food,they should do after being smacked for no reason on a racecourse because by all accounts it’s what they were born to do 

If animals jumping fences they were not meant to brings you enjoyment and you can’t find happiness in any other way then well I’m flabbergasted 

Be flabbergasted then

[Daniro]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

Well I'll go against the grain, I love horse racing!

Everything about it is geared to a great event whether it be with family or friends 

The horses live the best life imaginable, get the best food, exercise and vets money can buy, when they retire they aren't just discarded as many think 

Go visit some racing stables if your not convinced, they are very open and encouraging of people taking an interest and widening the capabilities of some to understand what goes on 

As with most things in the world now, anything that brings a chink of enjoyment to some that others don't agree with lots of crap will be spouted, as it is here on this thread

 

 

 

 

Perhaps a visit to Gordon Elliott's stables would be educational?

 

[joe jordans teeth]

6 minutes ago, Daniro said:

Perhaps a visit to Gordon Elliott's stables would be educational?

 

Let’s not forget he was treated well when he was earning people money 

[frenchred]

8 minutes ago, Daniro said:

Perhaps a visit to Gordon Elliott's stables would be educational?

 

Let's pick out one isolated incident (that should never have happened)

2 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Let’s not forget he was treated well when he was earning people money 

How do you know he was earning people money? What was the horses name?

[joe jordans teeth]

2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Let's pick out one isolated incident (that should never have happened)

How do you know he was earning people money? What was the horses name?

You tell me,you go around stables being shown what they want you to see and call it a isolated incident 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

Well I'll go against the grain, I love horse racing!

You are admitting you love watching animal abuse. Very strange thing to do tbh. Is it the whipping you enjoy the most, or perhaps the hind legs being broken today and watching a horse be destroyed whilst still on the course? 

The worst thing about it is you're probably one of them that's outraged when Kurt Zouma kicked his cat about, or a big game hunter shoots a giraffe in the face.

The very worst kind of hypocrite.

[Kid in the Riot]

7 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

You tell me,you go around stables being shown what they want you to see and call it a isolated incident 

You can't just turn up and walk around stables. The top ones especially are very secretive, for obvious reasons. You can of course pay to tour some of them, but as you say, you'll only be shown certain things. 

I know loads of stable owners, both pro and casual owners of horses, mostly SW but also across the country. 

Most of the casual owners of horses, including of ex-race horses, care deeply about their animals and simply enjoy being in their presence. I'm afraid due to obvious demands and expectations, pro stables are very different. 

[joe jordans teeth]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

You can't just turn up and walk around stables. The top ones especially are very secretive, for obvious reasons. You can of course pay to tour some of them, but as you say, you'll only be shown certain things. 

I know loads of stable owners, both pro and casual owners of horses, mostly SW but also across the country. 

Most of the casual owners of horses, including of ex-race horses, care deeply about their animals and simply enjoy being in their presence. I'm afraid due to obvious demands and expectations, pro stables are very different. 

That was my point,he said have a tour and see what they want you to see basically and you are correct on the casual owners,I’m off to watch a human get punched in the face knowing full well what he signed up for anyrate 

[Daniro]

22 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Let's pick out one isolated incident (that should never have happened)

How do you know he was earning people money? What was the horses name?

I've only today changed my mind about horse racing, not based on the "isolated incident" that happened a few years back (even though that seems symptomatic of the heartlessness of the sport that is hidden from the public).

Seeing the video of Hill Sixteen lying dead having jumped one fence has convinced me it's not acceptable.   Further research has consolidated my thinking.  Three horses died at Aintree.  I now realise these tragedies are hidden from the public because of the gambling money involved.   The way ITV just deleted the first jump from their detailed replay of the race demonstrates the problem.   I have been to the races a few times in the past and admit it was fun at the time, but people need to know the truth about what really goes on.   You don't have to Google long to see for yourself.

[nebristolred]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

It's really difficult to find data away from horse racing on the net. I know about the domestic cases, because in a previous relationship we had stables that were hired out. It was spoken about. 

You've avoided commenting on the other glaring fact on producing food for vegetarians unethically, and the damage it does to the animal kingdom and environment. 

I agree with your sentiment...however it's easy to say things, yet not so easy to rectify in reality. It isn't a perfect world. 

Like I said...the animal kingdom is barbaric. 

 

 

 

Spuski I really shouldn't have to explain to you that throwing horses over jumps is more likely to kill them than trotting in fields, but I'm going to give you my (very, very rough) calculations here. If you want to respond to it, feel free and I'm open to it, otherwise I am going to go on the assumption that I'm right, given that jumps are obviously more dangerous than living in a field. If you want to try to disprove it mathematically, by all means do, I'm well open to it.

Spoiler

Link

Fatality rate over jumps per horse per start is 0.44%
The same fatality rate over flats per horse per start is 0.06%

If you assume for any given horse, 18 races per year, 12 of which over flats and 6 over jumps (just averaging out the normal which is roughly 2:1 flats v jumps) - that adds up to the chance of any given horse dying over a year at 3.36%.

That equates to a 1.16% chance of a race horse dying on any given week.

I'm 100% certain this is wrong somewhere, but I'm using very basic maths. If anyone wants to correct me either way please do.

Otherwise, I would love to see any numbers where you can suggest that a horse has a more than 1.16% chance of dying on any given week just trotting about in a field. I would be absolutely amazed if that is somehow more dangerous than racing.

As for your comment about your 'glaring fact on producing food for vegetarians unethically', it's a totally different argument, and this has been explained everywhere multiple times. It's so easy it shouldn't even need debating.

Eating more meat = needing more animals for the meat = farming FAR more plants overall for their feed. If we all went vegan overnight, even to cope for the extra plant-based food, it would be more than offset by not having to feed all of the additional animals. Our CO2 emissions would decrease hugely. Vegetarianism is *not* more dangerous for the planet than eating meat.

Your avocado argument is ridiculous. One hamburger produces as much CO2 as 25 avocados and uses 6.5 times more land.

It is such a poor argument, that vegetarians are somehow bad for wanting to eat avocado's. You then make excellent points about plastic and the like, but that doesn't detract from my argument, it just adds to it. It's not exactly right to whinge about someone else using plastic but then eat beef multiple times a week. If I cut out beef but still consume a bit of plastic, I'm still doing loads more for the planet than you are. I'm just doing a bit to help, whereas you are pretending to care while doing comparatively nothing.

Not to be rude here, I'm in a huge minority and I know most people here eat meat. I did for decades, I don't remotely look down on people who do, I totally get it. But trying to criticise people for doing something rather than nothing all while pretending to care is such a p*ss poor argument and I can't really have it. This does not make me a hypocrite, it makes me someone trying to do my best, which is more than most do. Simply existing is in many ways technically being a stain on the planet, I'm just trying to minimise my impact. How that could ever be seen as a bad thing is beyond me.

If you really give a damn, and I mean really gave a damn, you'd read this and then be open to changing your habits. But you won't, you will continually just do what is easiest, we will come to this argument again in 6 months and you will wheel out the same old disproven arguments.

But anyway I digress, the horse racing is more important here and specifically the use of jumps, the removal of which would reduce 86% of the unnecessary deaths we get from horse racing.

Edited April 16, 2023 by nebristolred

[Slacker]

I really can't see how people can honestly not see past their own interests and see the bigger picture regarding the horses welfare.Genuinely disappointing reading some of the attitudes here.If you are willing to support this unnatural and unnecessary suffering to animals for your entertainment and possible financial advantage,at least be honest with yourselves about what you are a part of.

[spudski]

7 hours ago, nebristolred said:

Spuski I really shouldn't have to explain to you that throwing horses over jumps is more likely to kill them than trotting in fields, but I'm going to give you my (very, very rough) calculations here. If you want to respond to it, feel free and I'm open to it, otherwise I am going to go on the assumption that I'm right, given that jumps are obviously more dangerous than living in a field. If you want to try to disprove it mathematically, by all means do, I'm well open to it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Link

Fatality rate over jumps per horse per start is 0.44%
The same fatality rate over flats per horse per start is 0.06%

If you assume for any given horse, 18 races per year, 12 of which over flats and 6 over jumps (just averaging out the normal which is roughly 2:1 flats v jumps) - that adds up to the chance of any given horse dying over a year at 3.36%.

That equates to a 1.16% chance of a race horse dying on any given week.

I'm 100% certain this is wrong somewhere, but I'm using very basic maths. If anyone wants to correct me either way please do.

Otherwise, I would love to see any numbers where you can suggest that a horse has a more than 1.16% chance of dying on any given week just trotting about in a field. I would be absolutely amazed if that is somehow more dangerous than racing.

As for your comment about your 'glaring fact on producing food for vegetarians unethically', it's a totally different argument, and this has been explained everywhere multiple times. It's so easy it shouldn't even need debating.

Eating more meat = needing more animals for the meat = farming FAR more plants overall for their feed. If we all went vegan overnight, even to cope for the extra plant-based food, it would be more than offset by not having to feed all of the additional animals. Our CO2 emissions would decrease hugely. Vegetarianism is *not* more dangerous for the planet than eating meat.

Your avocado argument is ridiculous. One hamburger produces as much CO2 as 25 avocados and uses 6.5 times more land.

It is such a poor argument, that vegetarians are somehow bad for wanting to eat avocado's. You then make excellent points about plastic and the like, but that doesn't detract from my argument, it just adds to it. It's not exactly right to whinge about someone else using plastic but then eat beef multiple times a week. If I cut out beef but still consume a bit of plastic, I'm still doing loads more for the planet than you are. I'm just doing a bit to help, whereas you are pretending to care while doing comparatively nothing.

Not to be rude here, I'm in a huge minority and I know most people here eat meat. I did for decades, I don't remotely look down on people who do, I totally get it. But trying to criticise people for doing something rather than nothing all while pretending to care is such a p*ss poor argument and I can't really have it. This does not make me a hypocrite, it makes me someone trying to do my best, which is more than most do. Simply existing is in many ways technically being a stain on the planet, I'm just trying to minimise my impact. How that could ever be seen as a bad thing is beyond me.

If you really give a damn, and I mean really gave a damn, you'd read this and then be open to changing your habits. But you won't, you will continually just do what is easiest, we will come to this argument again in 6 months and you will wheel out the same old disproven arguments.

But anyway I digress, the horse racing is more important here and specifically the use of jumps, the removal of which would reduce 86% of the unnecessary deaths we get from horse racing.

Sadly your post comes across as so high and mighty. 

You have no idea about my eating habits and whether I give a damn. 

You really don't help your argument by assuming someone you don't know, has polar opposite to your views. 

All I've done is give a counter argument. To give some balance. 

I assume you've never kept horses or been around the industry? 

I know all about how meat is produced. The various methods around the world. I also know about how the alternative diets away from meats are grown, produced, transported and sold. 

Both produce ethical and environmental damage. 

Just so you know. I follow a mainly clean healthy diet, based on a Mediterranean type diet. I don't eat processed food, don't eat fast food. I've only ever eaten one MacDonalds in my life. And my meat consumption is far less than it used to be. My sister has been a vegetarian for nearly 40 years. She has allotments and keeps bees. She's educated me and still does. 

What most vegans and vegetarians who spout their rhetoric forcefully do, Is never take into consideration the fact that everyone's body is different. How all of us digest things differently, have different nutritional needs, and react differently to different foods. Finding a balance of what works for you. Your body tells you what it needs. What makes it function, what makes it strong, what makes it weak. Etc etc. Not everyone can live just as a vegan or vegetarian without issues. 

I buy from local shops, and try as much to buy locally produced produce. Use farmers markets, small businesses, allotment produce. If I have to use supermarkets, which I do regularly, it's to buy produce like coffee beans. I try not to buy products covered in plastic or flown 1000s of miles, or unethically produced. Yes it's often avoidable. 

So I'm comfortable with how I try to do the right thing with some conscious and life health balance. 

I don't need some random bloke off the internet educating me. 

As for the horse racing...we can agree to disagree. I see more good done in the industry than bad. I've seen worse care, from people who just own horses for pleasure in fields or to ride on roads. 

I've been around horses and stables, and seen how it works. The great majority of horses are looked after far better than many humans. 

I hate cruelty to animals. I find it more abhorrent than when it happens with humans. 

As a person living in the comforts of the western world, I wonder how you feel about horses and other animals being used in third world countries to work in poor conditions when transporting and producing the fruit and veg you eat. Or do you just ignore that because it doesn't fit your argument...

As for your opening statement. Whatever I say won't change your view. So there is no point trying to change your way of thinking. 

Regarding your Carbon argument. The earth's atmosphere contains approx 0.4%...not even 1%. Plants need 0.2% minimum to survive. Below that they die. The biggest contribution is through burning fossil fuels and deforestation. Deforestation to grow things like palm oil and more fruit and veg. They aren't deforesting to make more land for cattle. That's decreasing already. 

My debate with you is to point out your view isn't so squeeky clean and giving some balance. Both our views are not perfect. 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by spudski

[Kid in the Riot]

22 minutes ago, spudski said:

I hate cruelty to animals. I find it more abhorrent than when it happens with humans.

Then why do you watch, and actively support, animal abuse in the form of horses being whipped and dying on race courses? 

[frenchred]

41 minutes ago, spudski said:

Sadly your post comes across as so high and mighty. 

You have no idea about my eating habits and whether I give a damn. 

You really don't help your argument by assuming someone you don't know, has polar opposite to your views. 

All I've done is give a counter argument. To give some balance. 

I assume you've never kept horses or been around the industry? 

I know all about how meat is produced. The various methods around the world. I also know about how the alternative diets away from meats are grown, produced, transported and sold. 

Both produce ethical and environmental damage. 

Just so you know. I follow a mainly clean healthy diet, based on a Mediterranean type diet. I don't eat processed food, don't eat fast food. I've only ever eaten one MacDonalds in my life. And my meat consumption is far less than it used to be. My sister has been a vegetarian for nearly 40 years. She has allotments and keeps bees. She's educated me and still does. 

What most vegans and vegetarians who spout their rhetoric forcefully do, Is never take into consideration the fact that everyone's body is different. How all of us digest things differently, have different nutritional needs, and react differently to different foods. Finding a balance of what works for you. Your body tells you what it needs. What makes it function, what makes it strong, what makes it weak. Etc etc. Not everyone can live just as a vegan or vegetarian without issues. 

I buy from local shops, and try as much to buy locally produced produce. Use farmers markets, small businesses, allotment produce. If I have to use supermarkets, which I do regularly, it's to buy produce like coffee beans. I try not to buy products covered in plastic or flown 1000s of miles, or unethically produced. Yes it's often avoidable. 

So I'm comfortable with how I try to do the right thing with some conscious and life health balance. 

I don't need some random bloke off the internet educating me. 

As for the horse racing...we can agree to disagree. I see more good done in the industry than bad. I've seen worse care, from people who just own horses for pleasure in fields or to ride on roads. 

I've been around horses and stables, and seen how it works. The great majority of horses are looked after far better than many humans. 

I hate cruelty to animals. I find it more abhorrent than when it happens with humans. 

As a person living in the comforts of the western world, I wonder how you feel about horses and other animals being used in third world countries to work in poor conditions when transporting and producing the fruit and veg you eat. Or do you just ignore that because it doesn't fit your argument...

As for your opening statement. Whatever I say won't change your view. So there is no point trying to change your way of thinking. 

Regarding your Carbon argument. The earth's atmosphere contains approx 0.4%...not even 1%. Plants need 0.2% minimum to survive. Below that they die. The biggest contribution is through burning fossil fuels and deforestation. Deforestation to grow things like palm oil and more fruit and veg. They aren't deforesting to make more land for cattle. That's decreasing already. 

My debate with you is to point out your view isn't so squeeky clean and giving some balance. Both our views are not perfect. 

 

 

Great reply to another trying to ram home his point of view as if it's the only one that matters

17 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Then why do you watch, and actively support, animal abuse in the form of horses being whipped and dying on race courses? 

Not pick the rest of his excellent reply not just cherry pick the bit that fits your agenda

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Then why do you watch, and actively support, animal abuse in the form of horses being whipped and dying on race courses? 

They've reduced the whip use to 6/7 times in a race. I personally would like to see the whip banned in encouraging, but it's necessary for use in guiding the horse. The industry isn't perfect. I'm not perfect. The industry pros far outway the cons imo. In the same way I could argue with yourself on having the higher moral ground, but you support boxing and martial arts. Which I don't. So neither of us are perfect imo. 

As I've pointed out...many horses injure themselves and die in fields, naturally, they also have the same problems when ridden on roads or fields for fun. 

Like I've pointed out...many animals including horses are used as working animals to help produce and transport food in third world countries. Food that you and me eat...with very little thought. Often beaten and kept in poor conditions. We don't see it here...so it's easy to ignore. 

Bare in mind the world's population and how many still live in poverty, and still use animals as modes of transport and working in production of food and manufacture. Like we as a nation did for centuries. 

Do you refuse to eat the food produced by such methods? 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, frenchred said:

Great reply to another trying to ram home his point of view as if it's the only one that matters

Not pick the rest of his excellent reply not just cherry pick the bit that fits your agenda

Thanks...I'm just trying to give some balance. None of us are perfect. 

[Slacker]

Spudski.I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about the horse racing industry, but how can you compare what consenting adults choose to do with what animals are forced to do?Also what does the actions of third world farmers have to do with a gambling business thousands of miles away?You obviously know more about what goes on in horse racing than me but your comparisons are doing absolutely nothing to help your argument. 

[frenchred]

5 minutes ago, Slacker said:

Spudski.I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about the horse racing industry, but how can you compare what consenting adults choose to do with what animals are forced to do?Also what does the actions of third world farmers have to do with a gambling business thousands of miles away?You obviously know more about what goes on in horse racing than me but your comparisons are doing absolutely nothing to help your argument. 

Only because those with an agenda refuse to listen to any other point of view apart from their own

[Slacker]

6 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Only because those with an agenda refuse to listen to any other point of view apart from their own

Sorry mate I don't really understand your response. I wouldn’t class my dislike of the treatment of racehorses as an "agenda".I will happily listen to Spudski's point of view,that is why I responded to him.My point is that he is going off on tangents to try to justify his argument.I believe the points he is making are irrelevant to the original thread. Please explain what you feel my agenda is, as I don't think I would class my thoughts as an agenda. 

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Slacker said:

Spudski.I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about the horse racing industry, but how can you compare what consenting adults choose to do with what animals are forced to do?Also what does the actions of third world farmers have to do with a gambling business thousands of miles away?You obviously know more about what goes on in horse racing than me but your comparisons are doing absolutely nothing to help your argument. 

Yes...the horses are bred to race. 

But they aren't forced to race. If a horse doesn't want to race or jump, it will refuse to do so. 

Explain to me how a horse that's unseated it's rider, and continues to jump and race without a rider, is being forced to do so. 

They want to run and jump. It's what they do in their natural environment. 

When I was with a family in a previous relationship that had horses, land and stables, the horses would run and jump in the fields. On occasion they injured themselves by just being horses. Going over on a leg and breaking it...even failing to try and jump a hedge. 

Compare that to horses being tethered and beaten to work in third world countries to transport and produce food for our western consumption. 

For all those berating horse racing...refuse to eat your food produced in such ways. Otherwise you don't have an argument. 

The argument stands, as those against horse racing will consume food produced from barbaric actions to animals, but ignore it because it's 1000s of miles away. Yet your consumption and actively participating in it, is far more harmful to animals than the very small industry of racing. 

[Super]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Then why do you watch, and actively support, animal abuse in the form of horses being whipped and dying on race courses? 

So would you ban all horse racing flat and jump?

[Daniro]

38 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...the horses are bred to race. 

But they aren't forced to race. If a horse doesn't want to race or jump, it will refuse to do so. 

Explain to me how a horse that's unseated it's rider, and continues to jump and race without a rider, is being forced to do so. 

They want to run and jump. It's what they do in their natural environment. 

When I was with a family in a previous relationship that had horses, land and stables, the horses would run and jump in the fields. On occasion they injured themselves by just being horses. Going over on a leg and breaking it...even failing to try and jump a hedge. 

Compare that to horses being tethered and beaten to work in third world countries to transport and produce food for our western consumption. 

For all those berating horse racing...refuse to eat your food produced in such ways. Otherwise you don't have an argument. 

The argument stands, as those against horse racing will consume food produced from barbaric actions to animals, but ignore it because it's 1000s of miles away. Yet your consumption and actively participating in it, is far more harmful to animals than the very small industry of racing. 

Interesting point of view.  

 

Genuine question:  which food products from third world countries are you recommending anti-horse-racers should avoid?        Like you, I try to avoid stuff with crazy food miles, like blueberries from Peru and green beans from Kenya etc.  for environmental reasons and because they are often totally tasteless, but hadn't particularly factored animal welfare into my thinking.      

[Slacker]

36 minutes ago, spudski said:

Yes...the horses are bred to race. 

But they aren't forced to race. If a horse doesn't want to race or jump, it will refuse to do so. 

Explain to me how a horse that's unseated it's rider, and continues to jump and race without a rider, is being forced to do so. 

They want to run and jump. It's what they do in their natural environment. 

When I was with a family in a previous relationship that had horses, land and stables, the horses would run and jump in the fields. On occasion they injured themselves by just being horses. Going over on a leg and breaking it...even failing to try and jump a hedge. 

Compare that to horses being tethered and beaten to work in third world countries to transport and produce food for our western consumption. 

For all those berating horse racing...refuse to eat your food produced in such ways. Otherwise you don't have an argument. 

The argument stands, as those against horse racing will consume food produced from barbaric actions to animals, but ignore it because it's 1000s of miles away. Yet your consumption and actively participating in it, is far more harmful to animals than the very small industry of racing. 

Animals can and often are made to do things against their will.I don't know for sure but I would assume that a horse trained from an early age could effectively be forced to jump against it's will. 

I would assume that a horse with an unseated rider would continue to run as that is what it has been trained (brainwashed) to do.Either that or maybe it is just following the rest of the pack?

Horses getting injured while running or jumping of their own free will is not exactly the same thing is it?

Again the rest of your reply is just deflecting from the original point.I accept that you are much more knowledgeable than me in this subject so I would like to ask a genuine question.If a pet horse suffered the same injury as a racehorse,would it be able to be treated by a vet or would it still have to be destroyed?For example could  a broken leg be fixed if the owner/insurance would pay for it?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Daniro said:

Interesting point of view.  

 

Genuine question:  which food products from third world countries are you recommending anti-horse-racers should avoid?        Like you, I try to avoid stuff with crazy food miles, like blueberries from Peru and green beans from Kenya etc.  for environmental reasons and because they are often totally tasteless, but hadn't particularly factored animal welfare into my thinking.      

Tracing food production from third world countries is actually very hard to do. You pretty much have to look at every distributor and where it sources its production from.

What we have to remember is the majority of the world has a completely different outlook on using animals in food transport and production. 

Then you have the human Labour to take into account. 

If you looked into it, as a population in this country, we are reliant on countries to provide cheap food and clothing, products, that if we witnessed it first hand, would be appalled. Yet if you took it away, we simply wouldn't be able to economically survive, unless we changed our habits completely. And became less about consuming and wasting. 

It's not just third world. Take into account your high end quality olive oils and such like. Small ' boutique ' suppliers...with very small output. Many still use ' traditional' methods which include animals in the work force. Milling, pressing, ploughing etc etc. 

I've seen it first hand in rural Greece and Turkey. Small businesses. 

We avoid the Supermarkets because we think they are the worst, but the boutique can be just as bad if not worse, as they don't have the manual resources. 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Slacker said:

Animals can and often are made to do things against their will.I don't know for sure but I would assume that a horse trained from an early age could effectively be forced to jump against it's will. 

I would assume that a horse with an unseated rider would continue to run as that is what it has been trained (brainwashed) to do.Either that or maybe it is just following the rest of the pack?

Horses getting injured while running or jumping of their own free will is not exactly the same thing is it?

Again the rest of your reply is just deflecting from the original point.I accept that you are much more knowledgeable than me in this subject so I would like to ask a genuine question.If a pet horse suffered the same injury as a racehorse,would it be able to be treated by a vet or would it still have to be destroyed?For example could  a broken leg be fixed if the owner/insurance would pay for it?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse

[Slacker]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse

Thanks for the link.An interesting albeit sad article that certainly opened my eyes to a few things.