Scouting

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

All of the clubs who were listed had good recruitment in common but all had different models!

The one I most often draw comparisons with is Brentford. A number if players we signed frok overseas were if a similar profile, starting point at the time of signing.

At time of signing, could Nagy and Massengo vs Norgaard and Jensen profile wise not he relatively interchangeable to name two. I fancy they would (injuries permitting) have flourished more at Brentford, maybe can add Eliasson to that too.

Kalas or Jansson? As of 2019 is there a great deal of difference- if anything Kalas is a bit ahead!

The thing I've liked from many of these Clubs, they don't just get a new Manager and let him get on with things, they have a plan. It looks usual now among certain Clubs, a team has an overall plan and Managers and players have to fit into that Plan. A managers leaves ? Recruit someone that has the same philosophy . Player X is lost , bring in Player Y who has a similar style . 
It sounds obvious and basic, yet how many teams don't follows those simple rules ? Under LJ we completely lost direction, and it may not all have been his fault. The recruitment was scattergun, the board pandered to every request and the CEO lived for a deal, that is a nightmare scenario . Brentford bought with purpose, they brought in players for a position or role and they knew they would fit as they were most likely already doing a similar role. Us ? We brought wingers into a team that didn't play with wingers and then tried to fit them in. 
Now we finally look like we have a plan, and direction. We now need some good recruitment.

[BLRed]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Brexit has actually helped for South American players….it’s Europe where it screwed English clubs.  The South American leagues and continental cup comps are ranked higher than they might otherwise have been.

Exactly. Brighton, watford et al have all made good use of it. Not sure why we don’t exploit it

[Ian M]

Definitely agree that our scouts should be told to find amazing players for cheap fees. This instruction, or lack thereof, could be the reason we haven’t been fighting for promotion. I’m gonna go tell Tins on Twitter.

[tin]

2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

This gets me .
While I'm not totally disagreeing with you, there is no magic formula for picking a (and this is the key word) successful Manager. You can go through all the appointments and say you wouldn't have chosen them, but there were reasons he should. 
There can be a case made for every Manager appointed by SL, whether they work or not comes later, but you can give a reason why they were all appointed. They didn't work out for various reasons, then you get to Steve Cotterill , not many wanted him but was a success. I seem to remember the phrase of the day was underwhelmed . 
this is where my argument gets wobbly......
Lee Johnson,  Young & inexperienced but keen to learn, this could have worked by giving a Manager the time and guarantees to build the Club. Great idea, wrong choice of man possibly.
Dean Holden , WTAF ? unfair on Holden.
Nigel Pearson , never thought Steve would have the guts to employ a strong outspoken man. Looks like he made a good choice. 
I don't see arrogant managerial appointments, just managerial appointments.
On a side note, and TBF to Lansdown, ( I almost hate to excuse this ) he had been told to get a football man to help him, sadly  Ashton was that football man . The main criticism I can lay on SL is he has been too loyal. Too loyal to LJ, too loyal ( or believing) in Ashton. 

He's made plenty of mistakes, or alternatively, he's made plenty of decisions that we don't agree with (see Steve Cotterill), he'll probably make more. Simon Jordan is reported to have lost £40M at Palace, he was  making decisions for the right reasons but they didn't work. Even Man U recently , different level but with their stature and money could just pick a winner. 
Someone has to make a choice, then they have to suck it up if it bites them in the ass. It is not an exact science. 

Fair point. But for every it’s not an exact science, there’s a Brighton, Brentford or Swansea before them who did have a long-term plan.

Brighton, for example, had De Zerbi top of their list should Potter have left. Frank was top of Brentford’s list when Smith went. 

That is succession planning and that is something SL has proven to be hopeless at for a bloody long time IMO.

[1960maaan]

6 minutes ago, tin said:

Fair point. But for every it’s not an exact science, there’s a Brighton, Brentford or Swansea before them who did have a long-term plan.

Brighton, for example, had De Zerbi top of their list should Potter have left. Frank was top of Brentford’s list when Smith went. 

That is succession planning and that is something SL has proven to be hopeless at for a bloody long time IMO.

Exactly what I said in my later post. The problem we had was for it to work , you have to have some semblance of success to build on. We seem to have been fighting fires for ages, until Cotts. Then ( without pointing fingers ) we were struggling again so LJ came in, and he never seemed to have any plan at all. I hope Steve has woken up to things, if he has then this could be the start of something. Otherwise it will be rinse and repeat.

[petehinton]

24 minutes ago, tin said:

Fair point. But for every it’s not an exact science, there’s a Brighton, Brentford or Swansea before them who did have a long-term plan.

Brighton, for example, had De Zerbi top of their list should Potter have left. Frank was top of Brentford’s list when Smith went. 

That is succession planning and that is something SL has proven to be hopeless at for a bloody long time IMO.

Frank was assistant, so when Smith went he was always earmarked to be next in line. They probably thought all their Christmases came at once when Villa came in for Dean. 

In fairness, you could say that was Holden with LJ…..if the club had appointed him the next day and not taken 6 weeks to do so. 

Luke Williams (playing absolutely incredible football at Notts C) was also earmarked to be next in line - whether that was succeeding LJ, or becoming Holden’s assistant for example, but believe there was a big falling out of sorts and he left out the back door. 
 

There was some kind of succession, or an idea of one, but it was absolutely plan b/c/d/e which is the problem. 
 

“an undecided heart, makes such a mess”

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Exactly. Brighton, watford et al have all made good use of it. Not sure why we don’t exploit it

These clubs have typically done it once they reach the PL…they are attractive because they can offer “deals” that are high enough to pay any fees, wages and also buy out any 3rd party ownership out of the deal.  It’s not financially viable for us.

Watford, as we know, in the past have used their Udinese and Grenada “partner” clubs to get around work permits.  I’ve lost track of what the Pozzo family look after these days.

Norwich (PP club) picked up a couple last season, Sunderland got Bennette from Costa Rica.  That’s it.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Davefevs

[Rocking Red Cyril]

9 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

I think we can trust Tinnion to turn that ship around. In terms of unknowns over the past year, we’ve gotten Tanner and Anis, both of whom look good. O’Brien looks another in that mould. The work he’s done in the academy proves his eye for a gem, I think we’re starting to see that in the market.

Is the O`Brien deal done then ?

Edited May 29, 2023 by Rocking Red Cyril

[BCFCGav]

34 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Is the O`Brien deal done then ?

No not to my knowledge, but I do believe we want him, so I factored him in. 
 

Most the itk seem to believe Mcrorie and Bryan are done, O’Brien and Currie are hopeful. 

[bpexile]

12 hours ago, Leveller said:

You have to wonder whether Ashton’s control of recruitment strategy was about ego or doing deals that would benefit his personal means, one way or another.

I think both would amount to the same 

[Son of Fred]

4 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

No not to my knowledge, but I do believe we want him, so I factored him in. 
 

Most the itk seem to believe Mcrorie and Bryan are done, O’Brien and Currie are hopeful. 

I've missed something here -

O'Brien,, which club is he currently with??

[M.D]

16 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

I've missed something here -

O'Brien,, which club is he currently with??

He's the centre half we looked at from Palace, that was on loan this season in Belgium and had a loan spell at Swindon before that.

[M.D]

43 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

I don't want to derail this thread too much but feel that such a good post deserves a response.

In my view Lansdown has made two good appointments. Gary Johnson and Nigel Pearson. By all accounts and judging by the way he was treated in the end, Cotterill was Dawes' appointment and Steve took plenty of convincing to go down that route. 

When I say arrogant appointments I mean the appointments of Tinnion, Millen, Holden and to a slightly lesser degree, Lee Johnson. Its a pattern that he seems to follow frequently, thinking he can employ from in house a completely under qualified and inexperienced coach or former player with no infrastructure or support network. To have made that mistake once would be hubris, to have made it 4 times is arrogance in my view. 

I also think the pattern of his managerial appointments defy all logic.

Let's start with Wilson as he was the first manager Lansdown led the club with. (The details of the appointment I'm not clued up on and whilst Steve was a major shareholder by then, I don't know who was "in charge" then). Perennial failure and allowed a damaging culture of excess to permeate the squad. Not a leader but had pedigree from Barnsley and Wednesday. Probably sacked at the right time. 

But to replace him with Tinnion defies all logic. What a team that bottled autos and lost in a playoff final needed was an experienced leader and a harder line. The squad was more than good enough to walk that league. Instead we promoted from within a player who, whilst we all love him, was captain of the team of players who let themselves down every time they got bladdered. (I'm not attributing blame to him for clarity).

He then signed a whole host of players, a number of whom worsened the drinking culture and ended up serving time. 

Next appointment was absolutely what was needed. Gary was the hardline figure required, cultivated an atmosphere around the club that I miss to this day. Going from Wilson to John Beck's assistant in a matter of a couple of seasons though is a significant sign that there was no consistency in how we employed managers. 

Next, Coppell. Now there's an argument that assessing that as a total failure is hindsight doing its thing, but I remember feeling the warning signs were there. His reluctance to accept the post, his refusal to take charge until the following season, his demeanor at the end of his Reading spell. All warning signs that his heart wasn't even close to being in it. Then spunking half the budget on a 40 year old keeper when Gerken was perfectly capable under the guys nose was another example of Lansdowns arrogance. Too big an opportunity to get the limelight...

Following that with the decision to give it to Millen made no sense. I liked Millen, but the next step after Johnson was someone to take us to the next level. That guy was never going to be Millen. 

Next McInnes. Now this appointment could well have made sense if it wasn't made in conjunction with a set of budget slashes that even highly experienced managers would struggle with. Wrong appointment for the context of what we were doing. Totally defied logic. 

SO'D. Again, didn't hate the appointment in that I'd long wanted O'Driscoll in as Manager. But was he the guy we needed in a relegation dog fight? Did we have the players to play O'Driscolls brand of possession football? Both of those answers were pretty obvious 

Even though Cotterill ended up being a fantastic appointment similar questions abound about continuity. Probably further highlights that the SOD appointment was illogical. 

Next, sacking Cotts without any backing and employing LJ and backing him more heavily than anyone ever before was ridiculous. If anyone had proven that they deserved the opportunity to "have a go" it was Cotts and Burt. Shabby treatment of a bloke who everyone but Lansdown backed to keep us up. 

And finally Holden. Having narrowly missed out on playoffs twice in a row we needed know how and leadership to give us that final boost. Instead the entire concept of Lansdowns fraudster CEO having to give up any control over recruitment was far too much for anyone to take and we went with a guy who couldn't say no. 

The process of appointments has lurched from one direction to another for the last 25 years. It just screams totally clueless to me. We should be driving the direction and employing managers who fit a mould. If Pearson leaves at the end of next season we should be replacing him with someone with similar ideas. For me that would be Mowbray if he's available, people with a track record of leading a group of young men and developing them into professionals whilst playing a decent and progressive brand of football. 

Sadly, looking at the patterns above, we will likely employ a young and exciting coach next, followed by a ridiculous over promotion, followed by a proper manager being hamstrung by the legacies of the last two. My money us on John Mousinho followed by Jamie McCalister.

Good post

To be honest, Im not convinced that SL is that keen on Nige..

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

I don't want to derail this thread too much but feel that such a good post deserves a response.

In my view Lansdown has made two good appointments. Gary Johnson and Nigel Pearson. By all accounts and judging by the way he was treated in the end, Cotterill was Dawes' appointment and Steve took plenty of convincing to go down that route. 

When I say arrogant appointments I mean the appointments of Tinnion, Millen, Holden and to a slightly lesser degree, Lee Johnson. Its a pattern that he seems to follow frequently, thinking he can employ from in house a completely under qualified and inexperienced coach or former player with no infrastructure or support network. To have made that mistake once would be hubris, to have made it 4 times is arrogance in my view. 

I also think the pattern of his managerial appointments defy all logic.

Let's start with Wilson as he was the first manager Lansdown led the club with. (The details of the appointment I'm not clued up on and whilst Steve was a major shareholder by then, I don't know who was "in charge" then). Perennial failure and allowed a damaging culture of excess to permeate the squad. Not a leader but had pedigree from Barnsley and Wednesday. Probably sacked at the right time. 

But to replace him with Tinnion defies all logic. What a team that bottled autos and lost in a playoff final needed was an experienced leader and a harder line. The squad was more than good enough to walk that league. Instead we promoted from within a player who, whilst we all love him, was captain of the team of players who let themselves down every time they got bladdered. (I'm not attributing blame to him for clarity).

He then signed a whole host of players, a number of whom worsened the drinking culture and ended up serving time. 

Next appointment was absolutely what was needed. Gary was the hardline figure required, cultivated an atmosphere around the club that I miss to this day. Going from Wilson to John Beck's assistant in a matter of a couple of seasons though is a significant sign that there was no consistency in how we employed managers. 

Next, Coppell. Now there's an argument that assessing that as a total failure is hindsight doing its thing, but I remember feeling the warning signs were there. His reluctance to accept the post, his refusal to take charge until the following season, his demeanor at the end of his Reading spell. All warning signs that his heart wasn't even close to being in it. Then spunking half the budget on a 40 year old keeper when Gerken was perfectly capable under the guys nose was another example of Lansdowns arrogance. Too big an opportunity to get the limelight...

Following that with the decision to give it to Millen made no sense. I liked Millen, but the next step after Johnson was someone to take us to the next level. That guy was never going to be Millen. 

Next McInnes. Now this appointment could well have made sense if it wasn't made in conjunction with a set of budget slashes that even highly experienced managers would struggle with. Wrong appointment for the context of what we were doing. Totally defied logic. 

SO'D. Again, didn't hate the appointment in that I'd long wanted O'Driscoll in as Manager. But was he the guy we needed in a relegation dog fight? Did we have the players to play O'Driscolls brand of possession football? Both of those answers were pretty obvious 

Even though Cotterill ended up being a fantastic appointment similar questions abound about continuity. Probably further highlights that the SOD appointment was illogical. 

Next, sacking Cotts without any backing and employing LJ and backing him more heavily than anyone ever before was ridiculous. If anyone had proven that they deserved the opportunity to "have a go" it was Cotts and Burt. Shabby treatment of a bloke who everyone but Lansdown backed to keep us up. 

And finally Holden. Having narrowly missed out on playoffs twice in a row we needed know how and leadership to give us that final boost. Instead the entire concept of Lansdowns fraudster CEO having to give up any control over recruitment was far too much for anyone to take and we went with a guy who couldn't say no. 

The process of appointments has lurched from one direction to another for the last 25 years. It just screams totally clueless to me. We should be driving the direction and employing managers who fit a mould. If Pearson leaves at the end of next season we should be replacing him with someone with similar ideas. For me that would be Mowbray if he's available, people with a track record of leading a group of young men and developing them into professionals whilst playing a decent and progressive brand of football. 

Sadly, looking at the patterns above, we will likely employ a young and exciting coach next, followed by a ridiculous over promotion, followed by a proper manager being hamstrung by the legacies of the last two. My money us on John Mousinho followed by Jamie McCalister.

Great reply, and hard to argue with .
The posts that annoy are ones that have said we shouldn't have employed XYZ without explanation or context.  That's why I say each Manager could be explained away on an individual basis. Doesn't look great when you look over time and notice a pattern, or lack of one.
Some of the problems, specially in hindsight may have been to do with Lansdown regularly being criticised for not being a football man. He does seem spikey and easily upset, not great traits for high level position, he would be used to obeyed without comeback. This may have lead to employing people he knew and trusted (Tins , Millen & Holden) , rather than go for someone with a reputation.
The lack of "joined up thinking" or continuity I totally agree with as I mentioned in an earlier post.
What I worry, is now we have got good foundations, SL doesn't give Nige a new contract and does try to be too clever .  
We should be working with Pearson to target the next Manager now, Give NP a new deal with an eye on a smooth transition to the next man. Nige has hinted he may not want too long in Management , so give him time to continue to build for this year , then ( as you say ) spend the time finding someone with similar ideas so you don't have whole sale changes with every new man. I believe that's one reason Hughton didn't get the job, he wanted basically a new squad. 
I think it is vital that we bring in players and Managers that fit the roles they are taking over, to eliminate the need to change anything just because a new face comes in. 
Time will tell, we are finally in a position that feels like a new start , I hope we can keep going in the right direction now. 

[Son of Fred]

36 minutes ago, M.D said:

Good post

To be honest, Im not convinced that SL is that keen on Nige..

Nigel isn't afraid to say what needs to be said - not an approach Steve will warm to..

It's healthy to not be constantly agreed with - that's what I tell my wife!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

1 hour ago, M.D said:

Good post

To be honest, Im not convinced that SL is that keen on Nige..

Yes feel NP is no yes man. And SL not totally cool with that 

[Jerseybean]

When it comes to spotting players our links with Guernsey are obvious, would love us to develop a similar approach in Jersey, where there are certainly potential ‘unknowns’ to be found, here’s the latest: https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/news/jersey-teenager-set-sign-championship-team/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Bailiwick Express News - JERSEY EDITION&utm_content=Bailiwick Express News - JERSEY EDITION+CID_8638452d617ad19ae3625d1a8fa122da&utm_source=Email marketing software&utm_term=Read more

 

[RedRoss]

On 28/05/2023 at 17:35, spudski said:

I notice Steve Cotterill has ' released' Burt as head of recruitment at Shrewsbury...after 3 years. Having worked with him here and Forest. 

When speaking to Burt and SoD whilst watching FGR in the past, I found them both fascinating characters. 

Burt definitely liked to work with certain Agents, and would sometimes dismiss players if they weren't with Agents or Agencies he preferred. 

You can make of that what you will...but I found at the time it was putting the Club at a certain disadvantage. 

Imo...he's got an eye for lower league players. 

Cotts going too by the looks of it..

https://www.shropshirestar.com/sport/football/shrewsbury-town-fc/2023/06/01/steve-cotterill-set-to-leave-shrewsbury-town/